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..Of course apple could make more powerful iMac's but at what cost? Why don't they want to do this anymore?...

The top-spec 2015 iMac 27 uses the fastest quad-core Skylake CPU made -- 4Ghz. The PCIe SSD can do 1,860 megabytes per second. It is so fast it essentially obsoletes the quad-core nMP and overlaps with the six-core.

In a test last year, the 2014 model (which has slower SSD and GPU) using FCPX rendered H264 video about 400% faster than a six-core nMP (see attached graph from Max Yuryev).

So the iMac 27 is already faster than the lower models of Apple's own Mac Pro, and faster at some things than a 12-core Mac Pro.

Even with the current physical and electronic design, the iMac does well enough to edit $100 million Hollywood movies. However more performance is always useful.

As has been discussed here many times and as was just posted on the front page of this web site, both AMD and nVidia are moving to much faster 14/16nm fabrication this year. AMD has already shipped samples which are 250% faster at the same power consumption than previous and competing parts. nVidia will have similar capability, so regardless of what GPU supplier Apple uses, these gains will be available. It is virtually certain these will show up in the iMac, maybe late this year. That would allow a huge GPU performance increase -- within a similar form factor, if Apple so chooses.
 

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The top-spec 2015 iMac 27 uses the fastest quad-core Skylake CPU made -- 4Ghz. The PCIe SSD can do 1,860 megabytes per second. It is so fast it essentially obsoletes the quad-core nMP and overlaps with the six-core.

In a test last year, the 2014 model (which has slower SSD and GPU) using FCPX rendered H264 video about 400% faster than a six-core nMP (see attached graph from Max Yuryev).

So the iMac 27 is already faster than the lower models of Apple's own Mac Pro, and faster at some things than a 12-core Mac Pro.

Even with the current physical and electronic design, the iMac does well enough to edit $100 million Hollywood movies. However more performance is always useful.

As has been discussed here many times and as was just posted on the front page of this web site, both AMD and nVidia are moving to much faster 14/16nm fabrication this year. AMD has already shipped samples which are 250% faster at the same power consumption than previous and competing parts. nVidia will have similar capability, so regardless of what GPU supplier Apple uses, these gains will be available. It is virtually certain these will show up in the iMac, maybe late this year. That would allow a huge GPU performance increase -- within a similar form factor, if Apple so chooses.

Yeah, I've got one..I love it, but it could be better in terms of how it handles that power IMO. ( I'm greedy!)

It blows out its arse at start up when it fires up to render anything heavy in After Effects...and then settles down to tick along for the duration...C4D really blows a lot..not used Final Cut for anything heavy as yet...I know it's nicely optimised what with the drivers and everything so hope I to check it out with some 4K footage soon.

Do you know whether they rendered out that $100 million movie on an iMac or just used it to edit?

The fact that the movie cost $100 million has little relevance other than some 'pro's' use it cause they like Mac's and it can get the job done.
 
...Do you know whether they rendered out that $100 million movie on an iMac or just used it to edit?

It was edited and rendered in FCPX, then like most expensive Hollywood movies, it was color corrected using a high end system like Quantel's Pablo Rio: https://s-a-m.com/products/quantel-rio-–-complete-color,-editing-and-finishing-tool/c-24/p-173

....The fact that the movie cost $100 million has little relevance other than some 'pro's' use it cause they like Mac's and it can get the job done...

First let me correct the budget. It appears "Focus" cost $50 million to make. However they aren't going to jeopardize a $50 million production by editing on a system that can't do the job or does it too slowly. In this case the editors were not Mac fanatics -- they had plenty of experience on various platforms.

Much of the movie was edited in iMac 27s, not Mac Pros. They used 32 terabyte locally-attached Thunderbolt arrays. Toward the end of post production they got some Mac Pros but the editors said iMac performance was great. This is all discussed in the book by 1st Assistant Editor Mike Matzdorff: http://amzn.com/B00UO2NA8I

The relevance is if we can edit major films on iMacs when the post production costs are thousands of dollars per day, what's the big problem with iMac 27 performance?

There are obviously specialized narrow-market cases that require higher end hardware, such as the above Quantel Pablo Rio system. Apple is not going to spend many millions of dollars developing for niche markets like that.
 
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It was edited and rendered in FCPX, then like most expensive Hollywood movies, it was color corrected using a high end system like Quantel's Pablo Rio: https://s-a-m.com/products/quantel-rio-–-complete-color,-editing-and-finishing-tool/c-24/p-173



First let me correct the budget. It appears "Focus" cost $50 million to make. However they aren't going to jeopardize a $50 million production by editing on a system that can't do the job or does it too slowly. In this case the editors were not Mac fanatics -- they had plenty of experience on various platforms.

Much of the movie was edited in iMac 27s, not Mac Pros. They used 32 terabyte locally-attached Thunderbolt arrays. Toward the end of post production they got some Mac Pros but the editors said iMac performance was great. This is all discussed in the book by 1st Assistant Editor Mike Matzdorff: http://amzn.com/B00UO2NA8I

The relevance is if we can edit major films on iMacs when the post production costs are thousands of dollars per day, what's the big problem with iMac 27 performance?

There are obviously specialized narrow-market cases that require higher end hardware, such as the above Quantel Pablo Rio system. Apple is not going to spend many millions of dollars developing for niche markets like that.

I'm not having a go but it's like comparing apples and oranges ( sic)

There are things people like myself use iMacs for that are more intensive than editing/exporting some bits of 2K footage.

'All editing was done in 2048x1152 ProRes 4444 using the Outpost media in Final Cut Pro X, just hours after shooting.'

It's great that Mac's and FCPx can produce this workflow to edit/organise bits of a movie on rMBP's, IMacs and mp's...really exciting stuff...But at some point it's got to be chucked onto the Quantel Pablo Rio which is where the heavy stuff happens..grading, adding in CGi...that beast will be using top tech for real time play back...and then probably rendered out from Quantel?
 
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...at some point it's got to be chucked onto the Quantel Pablo Rio which is where the heavy stuff happens..grading, adding in CGi...that beast will be using top tech for real time play back...and then probably rendered out from Quantel?

Yes that's correct. Even a 12-core Mac Pro with dual D700s does not have that level of performance. Some of the Pablo Rio systems use three nVidia Tesla K80s, at $4,000 *each*, plus a dual Xeon motherboard. Yet the total annual revenue from sales of such systems is quite small. From Apple's standpoint there is no reason to pursue markets like this.

There's not even that much money in the total high-end Hollywood video editing market segment. Avid has over 90% of that market and their total annual revenue from that segment is only about $200 million. They were de-listed from Nasdaq in 2014 and are undergoing financial difficulties today.

A top-spec iMac 27 can do a lot today and late this year may get a big GPU boost from the new AMD or nVidia 14/16nm chips. However many market segments are pyramid-like from a revenue standpoint. There may be a lot of bragging rights to owning the tip of the pyramid, but it takes a lot of development and support investment to capture it, yet there is often not much revenue up there.
 
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People should complain to Apple about this:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

I have nothing against the "thin" look until it means:

  1. Lack of ports
  2. No upgrades
  3. More difficult servicing
Additionally, if this is a "style" thing, as has been purported with the new, 1-port USB C MacBook, just how stylish does it look to have a laptop sitting on your desk with one adapter feeding another adapter which is feeding other devices. Cables and devices all over the place. For that reason and that reason alone I would never consider the new MacBook.

When I'm using my desktop computer, I'm looking at the display and the keyboard, not wandering around it in circles exclaiming "ohhhhhhhhh, it's so stylish looking." The thing could extend back 20 feet for all I care.

Seriously, complain to Apple. It will only take a minute. Lack of I/O ports, no RAM changes, and no easy HDD or SSD upgrades is not, IMHO, a selling point.
 
Seriously, complain to Apple. It will only take a minute. Lack of I/O ports, no RAM changes, and no easy HDD or SSD upgrades is not, IMHO, a selling point.
You wouldn't think, but they are selling boatloads of computers.

I've adjusted some of my opinions on this, and I am wondering if the consumer really doesn't care about those. As I posted earlier, the proof is in the pudding and the consumer is voting with their wallet.
 
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The conversation we really should be having, especially in light of what's happening to every other product line is:

When are we getting the iMac Pro ?

I absolutely think it's coming...
Perhaps even with a 32-34" 5k or 8k screen option?

(there is 1 year old intel online about LG making an 8K display for Apple - still unseen in the market...)
 
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It was edited and rendered in FCPX, then like most expensive Hollywood movies, it was color corrected using a high end system like Quantel's Pablo Rio: https://s-a-m.com/products/quantel-rio-–-complete-color,-editing-and-finishing-tool/c-24/p-173



First let me correct the budget. It appears "Focus" cost $50 million to make. However they aren't going to jeopardize a $50 million production by editing on a system that can't do the job or does it too slowly. In this case the editors were not Mac fanatics -- they had plenty of experience on various platforms.

Much of the movie was edited in iMac 27s, not Mac Pros. They used 32 terabyte locally-attached Thunderbolt arrays. Toward the end of post production they got some Mac Pros but the editors said iMac performance was great. This is all discussed in the book by 1st Assistant Editor Mike Matzdorff: http://amzn.com/B00UO2NA8I

The relevance is if we can edit major films on iMacs when the post production costs are thousands of dollars per day, what's the big problem with iMac 27 performance?

There are obviously specialized narrow-market cases that require higher end hardware, such as the above Quantel Pablo Rio system. Apple is not going to spend many millions of dollars developing for niche markets like that.


The problem is, you're taking the argument the wrong way; from the aspect of most who have never taken part in a complete production. Editing is literally the simplest (technically, not artistically) and least intensive task. The iMac is great for editing; and big budget companies are exactly those who have the money to blow on several iMac workstations, since they have money for better stuff as well, and a single person won't be handling it all themselves.

But as anyone who's ever worked for a small to mid-size production company, these aren't "specialized" needs. These houses usually don't have the money to invest in more than 4 workstations; and yes the iMac is fine for editing, and sometimes even rendering out - but by no means is it a fully capable machine. And it's not even like it requires Pablo Rio to blow it out of the water; tons of computers are far more capable than the iMac - for less than the price of the iMac.

A 12core old mac pro can easily kill the top of the line iMac and nMP, when you are handling entire productions on a single system. The ability to complete CG, color, editing, and rendering is a necessity for many smaller firms. This is where the iMac becomes a relative 'waste' for lower budgets. Now for wedding video editors, or event videography companies, and simply for editing, an iMac will serve its purpose fine and well. But companies that produce high end commercials and start-to-finish productions with several aspects; it's not going to cut it.

To compete, many smaller firms and contractors have to create 2.5k and 4k AE comps that bring the newest iMac to a complete crawl. The lack of graphics upgrades and Vram increase is the basis of this argument against the thinness of the iMac. As anyone will tell you, a 4gb graphics card (as on a fully upgraded imac; even though most have 2gb - a complete joke for anything graphics related other than playback.) on a high end machine is almost pointless; considering 6-12gb barely cuts it on making certain projects workable.

When it comes to decision making for many companies, here is the deal: spend $4,100 on a single iMac 'workstation' that requires them to also buy another computer for anything with intense graphics requirements; or spend $2,900-3,500 on a used Mac Pro 12 core with dual 980ti's, more ram, up to 4 SSD's, etc. that will be able to handle editing, color, and CG? And again, there lies the issue with the iMac and its thinness. It is good for about 1/6 of the work required for a complete production; excellent if you have 6 people doing each part; horrible if your company can't afford that.
 
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You wouldn't think, but they are selling boatloads of computers.

I've adjusted some of my opinions on this, and I am wondering if the consumer really doesn't care about those. As I posted earlier, the proof is in the pudding and the consumer is voting with their wallet.

It doesn't need to be binary as in either/or. Why not make some thin models for those that want them and then more powerful stuff that's maybe a little thicker for those like me that would like to see more ports, features, and the ability to upgrade.
 
It doesn't need to be binary as in either/or.
I agree, but I think its Apple that has made it so. Thinner with less ports, less ability to open it up. If we didn't lose out on functionality, or expandability, I wouldn't mind it thinner.
 
...When it comes to decision making for many companies, here is the deal: spend $4,100 on a single iMac 'workstation' that requires them to also buy another computer for anything with intense graphics requirements; or spend $2,900-3,500 on a used Mac Pro 12 core with dual 980ti's, more ram, up to 4 SSD's, etc. that will be able to handle editing, color, and CG? And again, there lies the issue with the iMac and its thinness...

I partially agree with this. Even on this Mac forum, I have periodically recommended people use a Windows machine instead of a Mac, especially when editing 4K H264 video using Premiere CC. In my own tests of CC vs FCPX on the same iMac hardware, the frame rate of CC is about 20 times slower than FCPX when fast forwarding in an H264 4K timeline. JKL keyboard lag is vastly slower.

Likewise I just did a performance test this morning of Adobe Lightroom CC vs Apple Photo 1.5. When browsing through 42 megapixel raw stills from a Sony A7RII, the Lightroom Library module was eight times slower, despite having 1:1 previews already pre-generated. The Adobe Lightroom product manager has recently publically apologized about the poor quality of their software.

I agree you cannot often control the software you use, since the entire workgroup may have a big investment in training, procedures, etc. If you have to use specific software and this causes performance problems the only solution is upgrade the hardware.

The iMac definitely has limited upgradeability. However going to a thicker iMac would not enable a 12-core Xeon machine with dual GTX-980ti GPUs. That was your exact comparison. That would require an 800 watt power supply and there is no way Apple is putting that into an iMac, thicker or not.

If you are waiting until Apple makes an iMac with a 12-core Xeon and dual 250-watt GPUs, you will be waiting forever. The thin iMac design isn't what prevents that. It's not currently possible in anything resembling an all-in-one form factor.

With both AMD and nVidia moving to 14/16 nanometer fabrication this year, it should translate into a 200% increase in GPU performance per watt. That will significantly improve graphics performance while retaining an all-in-one form factor. But if your requirements are an 8-12 core CPU and very high end GPU, that won't fit in an iMac, whether the case is a thicker 2007-style or the current design.
 
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I think Apple's obsession with thinness has gotten in the way to producing great iMacs. There's absolutely no reason to make a desktop computer that is not normally moved razor thin

I respectfully disagree. I cheer their thinness obsession. I don't think it hinders me at all. My 2012 iMac is the best Mac I've ever owned. GPU was quite a monster back then and the fans are just super quiet.

I really have absolutely no complaints with my machine. I've gotta tone down some new modern games down to 1080p but it still rocks even to this day.

Although I'm looking forward to a new redesign, I am actually more wishful for reduced bezel size rather than thinness, although a further reduction in the latter wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
 
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....I still disagree with the idea of making a desktop computer razor thin.

I see this viewpoint and agree if that physical design made a huge negative impact on the iMac performance it might not be worth it.

However the top-spec iMac 27 has excellent performance in many areas: it has the fastest most modern consumer CPU made -- 4Ghz Skylake i7-6700K. It has the fastest SSD commonly available, which is much faster than most other machines. It can accommodate 64GB RAM. The GPU is sufficient for editing multiple streams of H264 4K video. A top-spec iMac 27 is faster at some some tasks than an 8-core Mac Pro with dual D700 GPUs.

More GPU performance would be nice for some things but that cannot be done (with current technology) without a much bigger power supply plus other changes. The TDP of a GTX-980ti is 250 watts. My entire iMac plus two RAID arrays under heavy load only pulls about 150 watts total -- I measured it myself with an in-line watt meter.

So you'd have to modify the internal design, make it a lot thicker, add a hugely upgraded power supply totally different cooling, somehow verify GPU compatibility with the 5K screen and custom timing controller. If the add-in GPU was not compatible you'd have a very restricted list of GPUs, or maybe none at all? Or does that mean Apple should never have done 5K but stuck with 4K, made a much thicker case, raised the price for everyone when only a few people need that capability? Since they already have rolled out 5K does that mean they should revert back to 4K?

Upon closer inspection it is more complicated than adding a hatch and a connector for a GPU.

Fortunately it appears in the relatively near future the GPU performance will get a lot faster within this same form factor, since AMD and nVidia are releasing 14/16 nanometer devices this year.

Also Adobe is working on fixing some of their performance problems which is one of the reasons people keep looking for gigantically powerful machines. The magnitude of these improvements is beyond what you could achieve by making the iMac case a little thicker. This is very good news.

Improving After Effects performance:

Premiere CC to get built-in proxy support and improved rendering engine: http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/ac...oud/pdfs/nab/2016-pro-video-NAB-datasheet.pdf
 
You wouldn't think, but they are selling boatloads of computers.

I've adjusted some of my opinions on this, and I am wondering if the consumer really doesn't care about those. As I posted earlier, the proof is in the pudding and the consumer is voting with their wallet.

Or their customers are locked in to the platform and have to make do with what is offered by Apple...
 
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