I am pretty sure that is how it works in TFL except that the price is determined by the distance and zones travelled which is calculated by the entrance and exit gates, which both require a phone tap. I have the same debit card on both Apple Pay and Google Pay. I wonder whether I could use both in London without being charged for two Travelcards, i.e. is the tracking token linked to just the payment card or also the phone?
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iPhone X Apple Reportedly Opening Up NFC to Transit Systems
- Thread starter ipedro
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I am pretty sure that is how it works in TFL except that the price is determined by the distance and zones travelled which is calculated by the entrance and exit gates, which both require a phone tap. I have the same debit card on both Apple Pay and Google Pay. I wonder whether I could use both in London without being charged for two Travelcards, i.e. is the tracking token linked to just the payment card or also the phone?
QR is nowhere near as secure as NFC. Look as to why Apple Pay won and CurrentC flopped in the US. CurrentC is QR based.
However Walmart Pay, Starbucks, CVS, are all QR Code based and are thriving. So there’s that.
We have to be careful that we don't mix multiple elements. The system as employed with the iPhone is a standard payment, it is compatible with any contactless reader and they do not have to do anything specifically for it. That is simply a fact demonstrated by it working in many regions where Apple Pay hasn't even been introduced. It simply follows standards.
The token is between you and your bank to represent your card, and also part of the trust in the contactless payment. You have to use the same card, device, watch all the time as well to benefit.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/apple-pay
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It is linked to the device used. Even switching between an iPhone and Apple Watch could mean loosing out on discounts...
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/apple-pay
Suica uses NFC-F(Felica.) Though it is staring to be called NFC Global. Your pass can be transferred between devices such as an iPhone or Apple watch. However the same pass can’t esist on both devices at the same time.
The NFC-F Suica pass can work independently, without a network connection. Suica can also be used without unlocking the phone or even turning the screen on.
Suica (pasmo, iccoca, etc) are essentially a cash card and are preloaded. Trip costs are determined by where a user taps in an taps out.
What’s interesting is if you pay for a monthly commuter pass. If you pay for a commuter pass you prepay for transit between two specific stations. Normally home and work or school. If you travel between those stations Suica knows to not deduct from the cash stored on the card. Further, say you tap in from work but bypass home to go say two stops out to go drinking, you are only charged for the cost of the two additional stations. If you travel within you prepaid line, say going from home to one stop before work, you won’t be charged as long as you enter and exit from within the two predetermined stations.
But why a different card? I don't get that part, architecturally it doesn't make sense. The barrier for entry is too high as well. Most people already have a contactless bank card. When you see how London, Moscow, and it sound some US major cities approach it then you don't need anything else or special. Just use your card consistently and it will automatically calculate the best fare available. No need for additional card, systems, loading up etc...
This article give you good reason why and the politics behind the scenes.
https://atadistance.net/2017/10/05/apple-chooses-to-give-choices-with-global-felica/
https://atadistance.net/2017/10/05/apple-chooses-to-give-choices-with-global-felica/
Considering that TFL’s system was designed in San Diego by CTS, I’d imagine most US credit card based transit systems work about the same (Chicago, new NYC and Boston systems in the making.)I’m annoyed at the ones that use the exact same system as London, but don’t enable the credit card feature like London, I’m looking at you San Francisco and Los Angeles! Even the gates and card readers are the exact same as London.
yes. good point: NFC terminals used in Japan are NFC-F type, different from NFC-A/B terminals used everywhere else.
payments made (for transit) using the Suica card app that can be incorporated into newer models of iPhone/Watch (which contain all flavors of NFC) do not require any network connection at all for payments made at transit locations within Japan.
the transaction is done entirely locally on the device through a stored balance, and then subsequently the balance is synced when connected to a network within a second or very few seconds.
from apple's website:
"Using Suica for transit
You can use Suica with Apple Pay for transit anywhere you can use a physical Suica card or where interoperable IC cards are accepted. If your Suica card is set as your Express Transit card, simply hold the top of your iPhone or Apple Watch within a few centimeters of the ticket gate scanner when you enter and exit. Your iPhone or Apple Watch must be turned on, but it doesn't have to be connected to a network. You don't need to wake or unlock your device or open an app when you enter or exit the ticket gates. You'll see Done and a checkmark on the display."
Not how I understand it at all. Apple Pay presents itself as a standard contactless card. That is very clear and obvious as it allows you to pay on standard terminals in markets where Apple Pay hasn't launched yet. I know as they look at you like you are from another planet when you make a payment with your watch
Apple Pay presents itself as a standard card but the number it gives the credit card terminal is anonymized. It’s always a different number. Only the bank knows what account that number belonged to at that time. That’s what makes it so safe vs a plastic card that has the number printed on the front. If I were to tap my ApplePay to a transit terminal that isn’t specifically in partnership with Apple, I’d tap in with one credit card number and tap out with another. It wouldn’t recognize me on the way out and I’d be charged a fine on my tap in number for not tapping out, even though I did.
A number of enthusiasts here won't go to a business if it doesn't accept Apple Pay so when some people say "everywhere" it's more just everywhere *they* go.
If you
LOL... I have Apple Pay setup on my iPhone and Android Pay on my Android devices. Really rarely use either Apple a Pay or Android Pay. It is impossible to get ride of wallet, I just pull out my wallet and pay using my card.
I also disabled Tap to Pay function on my card. You never know if someone has NFC scanner and copying your card.
Yet it is news that they are implementing it now
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We are talking about two different things. On a normal payment terminal, contactless PDQ, there is no need for special integration. If an organisation wants to provide other functions, beyond the standard payment then yes they will have to do that.
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If the retailers PDQ accepts normal standard payments, which here in Europe is everywhere including street food stalls then again there is no need for “special” acceptance. The only limitation is where your own bank provides support or not.
How and why would you disable that on the card? You do realize the information a scanner gets with EMV contactless is absolutely useless right? Sticking in the chip and typing in a PIN is a pain, especially in the US where Chip readers at Walmart and CVS are slow as hell. The grocery store and Walgreens uses near instantaneous chip readers though that’s about as fast as tapping. It’s as fast as inserting on a gas pump, insert chip and it’ll scream at you to pull it right out within 1s.
The conspiracy is that Walmart and CVS have slow chip readers, and no tap to pay, to force people to pay with their stupid QR code app.
Here in Seattle I’ve gone a week or so without really needing a wallet. I do my grocery shopping at Amazon Go or Whole Foods, Pay for meds at Walgreens. So here you literally don’t need a wallet.
I don’t drive and have no need to and once the local transit authority builds support for transit pass on Apple Pay.
I’ll only have the carry my ID and one day that will be digital too
Only if I am taking the bus otherwise I can go to the market without.
Let’s not get into a game of Semantics please.
Ditto for Phoenix. I still carry mind but found myself using my phone for pretty much everything. Walmart I use Walmart Pay so there’s that. Public transit has an app.
Did you mean why a separate card for PRESTO? Well that predates iPhone also. The news is, as I understand it, that they're opening it up to mobile payments. A closed card system has two options for this. Allow the closed card system to be used on phones etc or open up and allow contactless cards to be used (like TFL did).
TFL allowed contactless cards for business reasons - the costs of managing Oyster card were fairly high, and paring it back and encouraging people to use contactless (with low transaction fees) would save money in the long term, especially with less cash handling and the ability to make certain customer-facing positions redundant.
London has a lot more tourism than Canada. Perhaps the same numbers don't stack up for Ontario. There are also advantages to building things like suica into iphone etc rather than the other way around - you can set these types of cards as "express transit" cards meaning they can be used quickly without authentication or even lighting up the phone screen - the same can't be done with generic contactless bank cards. These types of dedicated cards also read much more quickly than regular contactless transactions, and are less prone to transaction failure.
Presto uses Scheidt and Bachmann, along with Boston and Phoenix, and many German cities.
London, SF, LA, Chicago, NYC (future), Boston (future), SkyTrain in Canada, Atlanta, and as I’m typing this seems like most of the world uses Cubic Transportation Systems. I tapped an Oyster card on LA’s tap system, and it read the card, but rightfully so, showed an invalid card message.
Both systems use NFC-A, nothing like Suica used in Asian countries.