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Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
Honestly, I don't know that their graphics architecture will allow traditional graphics processors from AMD considering that Apple's own GPUs function very differently and on a fundamental level.

What seems way more likely is an expansion of the Afterburner family for additional co-processors designed to assist the Apple Silicon iGPU on specific tasks (such as ray tracing, advanced video encoding, etc.). You'll buy the Afterburner card that is designed to assist your partuicular workflow and then the iGPU will be properly augmented for the task at hand.

The graphics stack in macOS/iOS is already architected to handle both types of GPUs, and can expose information based on feature set through the API. The difference is that you can get yourself into trouble if you assume IMR-style behaviors in your Metal code, and can get bugs coming from Intel. You also lose out on optimizations you can make, since the SoC GPUs support a superset of Metal features compared to AMD/Intel.

Kinda the whole point of GPU drivers is to mask away implementation details from the API as much as possible. Feature detection helps with the rest, by making code adapt to features, rather than specific architectures.

Apple could drop support for non-Apple GPUs, but it will fully be a business decision, not a technical one.

As for afterburner, it’s already a beefy FPGA. Unless they want to go full ASIC with these accelerators you are suggesting, it’s more likely that you download/buy new profiles that reconfigure the FPGA for specific tasks.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
First off, Apple is NOT going to design a special Apple Silicon chip just for Mac Pro. It will use the same one as in iMac. But Mac Pro will have the option to add more RAN, more internal PCIe storage, and GPU cards on the PCIe bus.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
First off, Apple is NOT going to design a special Apple Silicon chip just for Mac Pro. It will use the same one as in iMac. But Mac Pro will have the option to add more RAN, more internal PCIe storage, and GPU cards on the PCIe bus.

if there is significantly more RAM capacity , more MMU "horsepower" to cover higher capacities, and/or more PCI-e controllers then it is pragmatically going to be a different chip. If only because the pin-outs from the package are different. The silicon die would more than highly likely be different also.

If trying to say the main application execution cores are the same, that really isn't the same thing as a chip. There are probably quite literally billions of other transistors on the dies that are not the application execution cores. If those change then the chip is changed.

Very good chance that the iMac 21-24" SoC won't be the same die as the iMac 27" model (gapped at least on GPU transistor allocation ) . Where there likely would be high overlap with the Mac Pro would be whatever takes the iMac Pro place. ( Probably another iMac Pro).

Even if Apple did something with chiplets for the application execution cores and did 'reuse" across chip ( chip packages or SoCs ) that would still be a different "chip". Chiplets can't be chips or else wouldn't need a new name for them. As long as the die ( or set of dies ) is different , then it is a different chip in any meaningful use of the word.


The Apple Silicon iMac probably will cover more of the classic Mac Pro workload space from 2008-2018 timeframe. 12-16 cores ( perhaps 4 eco and 8-12 performance cores) . Cap out at around 128 GB RAM and probably a very capable dGPU on the 27" SoC variant. That would make .many old-time Mac Pro users would be happy . (not all of them. many of them.) As long as Apple can "beat" the 10 core Intel iMac with those 16 or so Apple Silocn cores on a subset of benchmarks for the marketing page they'll probably be quite satisfied with that. Likely not going to need 18-28 cores to do that. So iMac Pro probably isn't getting an SoC like that. As much as Apple is trying to push the dGPUs out of the 21-24" systems the transistor budget is probably skewed more at GPU than CPU. The 27" highly likely would have a very substantive GPU also ( along with large AI/ML/Neural footprint. )


But that really isn't going to cut it for the current Mac Pro 2019 chassis. Unless Apple retreats far more back toward the Mac Pro 2013 that iMac SoC won't work well .

Apple has an option for the Mac Pro (and iMac Pro) and a custom SoC. They can just keep the CPU package price quite high. Apple already shown they have no interest in the "Mac Pro" folks in the sub $6K price range. They could just walk the Mac Pro even higher if start the core count at a higher count ( e.g., 16 cores . For current 2019 model that is a $8K starting point. Perhaps split the difference and start at $7K. ). Additionally they can iterate on a much slower upgrade cycle for the SoC every 3-5 years. So sell the much higher price SoC for longer amounts of time. (and save money with a year or so of zero R&D spend during the lull.)
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
First off, Apple is NOT going to design a special Apple Silicon chip just for Mac Pro. It will use the same one as in iMac. But Mac Pro will have the option to add more RAN, more internal PCIe storage, and GPU cards on the PCIe bus.

If they intend to keep the Mac Pro around, they won't have much choice but to design a separate chip just for that. In order to compete with the Xeons they will need more cores, faster interconnect (with a different topology), more memory controllers, and faster GPUs.
 
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Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
If they intend to keep the Mac Pro around, they won't have much choice but to design a separate chip just for that. In order to compete with the Xeons they will need more cores, faster interconnect (with a different topology), more memory controllers, and faster GPUs.
Multi chip? Linked Over pci-e like AMD EPIC??
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
will need more cores, faster interconnect (with a different topology), more memory controllers, and faster GPUs.
Multi chip? Linked Over pci-e like AMD EPIC??

EPYC isn't linked over PCI-e. It is Infinity Fabric both as an interconnect on the package as well as between packages.

If Apple is putting performance/power first then probably not. If Apple isn't shooting for more than 32-36 cores max then it may be worth it just to go single die with 5nm . If shooting to save on power it wouldn't be more than one CPU package. (if that what mean by multiple chip (package ) ). If a single die was a bit unwieldy it could be multiple dies inside of one larger package. They'd probably need a new/differnt interconnect, but could chop the implementation up into 3-5 chunks/chiplets. ( e.g. 2 ARM cores chiplets , AI/ML chiplet , GPU+ fixed function A/V chiplet , and the rest chiplet ) . However, simpler to do an interconnect that can go up to what they need and just scale down for what they need lower on desktop line up.

They don't need to support top end GPU themselves. Supporting some 3rd party top end GPUs would fine. They just need to get the drivers added for them. Neither do they need to build something to go 'toe-to-toe' with EPYC on core count range.

Purportedly the A14x is in the range of 8 big plus 4 little (12 ) complex with cache , AI/ML , GPU and rest mixed in. If have an interconnect that handles that then just doubling shouldn't be a huge leap for the interconnect. That would be 24[/QUOTE]
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I think that any "pro" or workstation level system will need to support as many ARM cores as there are threads in the current Intel system in a maxed out/top end system. Right now, this is the 28 core/56 thread Intel Xeon based machine. Most logically, the easiest way to do this is to use 4 X 16P core SoCs. Apple could also have configurations with only 1 or 2 16P core SoCs. I don't think that this will be a unique SoC, but the high end SoC that will be designed for the 30" iMac. In this application, the efficiency cores don't count for much.

Apple can take a couple of approaches to this SoC. They can use the iMac SoC, and add in the glue logic to allow the use of multiple SoCs to work together and the PCIe/MPX slots, and just not use that functionality in the iMac, or do it with external logic in the MacPro only.

I don't know that Apple needs to use Infinity Fabric. They may choose to do so, or come up with a multi-SoC interconnect of thier own, perhaps specifically designed around the SoCs to be used. There is nothing magical about the Infinity Fabric, or QPI (as per Intel), or anything else, when you are spinning your own silicon. It is only common sense that Apple will need some form of high speed interconnect, but the specific interconnect doesn't need to be limited to anything that currently exists.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,423
2,108
Berlin
My biggest concern regarding an Apple silicon Mac Pro is- what will happen with all the Adobe apps? Would they run just fine? Or not at all? Or maybe this would FINALLY force Adobe to reprogram and get rid of their rotten old core? Or would things only get worse and they will just add emulations and wrappers and whatnot around what they have and it will run even less optimized than today?
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
There were Apple Silicon native Adobe apps announced at WWDC. I seem to recall that Adobe ported over apps in a few days. Why is there a concern? Adobe has moved to Creative Cloud anyway, so this shouldn't be a big concern.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,423
2,108
Berlin
There were Apple Silicon native Adobe apps announced at WWDC. I seem to recall that Adobe ported over apps in a few days. Why is there a concern? Adobe has moved to Creative Cloud anyway, so this shouldn't be a big concern.
Ah I missed the part where they announced native apps. Alright then.. I’m just so frustrated with the performance of Adobe in general on the 2019 Mac Pro.
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Just because the apps will be native, it doesn't automatically mean that they code base will be re-written. It may be just a minimal effort port to get the apps to work natively. Apple did say that it only took a couple of days of work to get an Adobe app working natively, which to me implies a recompile with Apple Silicon as the rarget platform. It is unknown, or undefined if you like, what Adobe used to recompile with. My bet would be the existing code, not re-written code.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
Just because the apps will be native, it doesn't automatically mean that they code base will be re-written. It may be just a minimal effort port to get the apps to work natively. Apple did say that it only took a couple of days of work to get an Adobe app working natively, which to me implies a recompile with Apple Silicon as the rarget platform. It is unknown, or undefined if you like, what Adobe used to recompile with. My bet would be the existing code, not re-written code.

I mean, which would you do first, a 'simple' re-compile of existing code with Apple silicon as the target platform; or just say 'eff it' and start a re-write of the entire code base...?
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
I mean, which would you do first, a 'simple' re-compile of existing code with Apple silicon as the target platform; or just say 'eff it' and start a re-write of the entire code base...?

Easily just recompile the code with a small group of devs. Re-writing it would take much much longer with a larger team. Only if Adobe can justify the ROI of the man hours needed to completely rewrite the code would they ever do it - which is why they haven’t yet.
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
..... Or maybe this would FINALLY force Adobe to reprogram and get rid of their rotten old core? ....

The statements I made were mostly in response to this. I have no idea if Adobe is re-writing anything, and if they are, this would not be a good point in time to jump to the new code. If they are not, its not even an issue.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
Just because the apps will be native, it doesn't automatically mean that they code base will be re-written. It may be just a minimal effort port to get the apps to work natively. Apple did say that it only took a couple of days of work to get an Adobe app working natively, which to me implies a recompile with Apple Silicon as the rarget platform. It is unknown, or undefined if you like, what Adobe used to recompile with. My bet would be the existing code, not re-written code.

There's absolutely no point to re-writing everything as part of an ARM transition. It would do nothing.

Re-compiling is the path. Adding back Intel specific optimizations where you can. But re-writing would be nonsense for no reason. There's no engineering sense behind re-writing, and it won't do anything for ARM to make things better.

Beyond Intel specific optimizations, there is no Intel code. There is no ARM code. It's just generic code.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
I think that any "pro" or workstation level system will need to support as many ARM cores as there are threads in the current Intel system in a maxed out/top end system. Right now, this is the 28 core/56 thread Intel Xeon based machine.

Given how much faster Apple CPUs are per watt and the fact that Apple is able to extract more ILP out of a single thread, it doesn’t seems like there is a need for that. A 32-core Apple CPU cluster without SMT running at 120 watts TDP will handily outperform a current 28 core Xeon-W at 255 watts.

Upcoming Saphire Rapids will probably be more energy efficient but even then I doubt that the situation will change significantly.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
I, for one, am excited to see what Apple may have in store for Apple silicon Pro desktop products...

iMac Pro, Mac Pro, who knows, maybe even a Mac Pro Cube...!?!
 

Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
Mac pro will need to have the video ram / gpu power to drive 2-4 8K displays and on cpu/gpu chip may not cut it.
Also ram lets see apple 1TB ram upgrade $20K and there are no slots to add non apple dimms.
 

fiatlux

macrumors 6502
Dec 5, 2007
352
143
If designing an ARM CPU for the Mac Pro alone made no economical sense to Apple, I guess they could perhaps source a high-performance ARM server CPU from someone else. Marvell’s Thunder X2 for instance has up to 32 cores/128 threads and supports up to 2TB of RAM.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
Apple is committing to developing their own chips, doubt they will want to out-source the heart of their flagship Pro product...
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
If designing an ARM CPU for the Mac Pro alone made no economical sense to Apple, I guess they could perhaps source a high-performance ARM server CPU from someone else. Marvell’s Thunder X2 for instance has up to 32 cores/128 threads and supports up to 2TB of RAM.

I feel like they'd sooner kill the Mac Pro in that case than depend on someone else again.
 
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