Apple Testing M3 Max Chip With 16-Core CPU and 40-Core GPU

[theorist9]

Because you need to have have signal paths on the motherboard. Apple package does not allow you to do so.

You have cited a source saying that you are not limited to VRAM size by bus width. In the context of GPUs - yes, that is correct. The signal paths on the PCB are double sided, so you can have two memory chips connected to the same signal paths on the GPU PCB - doubling the memory. The same way Xbox Series has 16 and 10 GB. 16 GB on a 320 bit bus, and 10 GB on a 128 bit bus.

In the Microsoft consoles case - the addidtional memory chips are on the other side of the motherboard, connected to one of 5 signal paths. So you have sort of partitioned memory subsystem: one side gives you 10 GB of RAM, the other - 6 GB of RAM. 10 GB is the graphics RAM, 6 GB - system RAM.

But because of how RAM is integrated into package to the Apple SOC - you can't. You would have to redesign whole package. Including the manufacturing of it. And then you would have to redesign also the designs. In case of Apple - you ARE limited to memory bus width.

The source on this topic can be any Electrical engineering textbook on the market.

None of that gets you to your claimed proof about M3. See my revised post.

 

[nathansz]

Based on: direction of sales of desktop computers, based on direction of sales of PC parts in the market, based on growing sales of mobile computers, based on direction of Intel and AMD development, and based on direction of technical limits of smaller nodes, in which largest die possible may very soon be 400 mm2 from current 900 mm2, based on piling manufacturing and design costs of chips, while also booming game console market and handheld market, while at the same time - upcoming paradigm shift in how we interact with ocmputers, which Apple Vision Pro is only pointing us. Voice control based interaction with computers, gesture control, AI intergation on OS level. That is coming. VERY rapidly.

Intel invested in dGPU to have drivers ready so they can provide integrated solution, like Apple does. AMD - the same thing, for yuears but only with Strix Point in 2024 we will see finally new design with wider memory bus, and pretty large GPU integrated into the SOC package. But both are investing in AI specifcally to have solutions for the paradigm shift that is coming to how we interact with computers, and you NEED integrated hardware for such solutions, because of the AI capabilities.

Overall market will evolve, it will have to. I expect that in very near future, Nvidia GPUs will become at best current midrange offerings, but not because they will forget about the gaming market. It will be required because of reticle limits of process nodes.

Thats why(evolution of the market) Nvidia also wanted to buy ARM, to be able to integrate their GPUs into CPUs, because currently their designs are incompartible, which recent AI supercomputer, as they call it, shown, where CPU and dGPU parts are on separate substrats, but connected through fabric. With market being pushed into integrated solutions: Nvidia will have no place on consumer market, which will be solely: Intel + AMD integrated designs, unless for Nvidia, something miracoulus happens.

DIY is dying, on consumer side and is becoming a nieche, enthusiast nieche. There is more and more mobile chips being manufactured, mobile chips - soldered into BGA packages.

So what is the direction here? Using those, same BGA packages, and soldering into typical DIY motherboards. You get all of the benefits of upgradebility with all of the drawbacks of integrated systems. You buy whole platform. Some of them will come with soldered RAM, some of them will come in the form of NUC, SFF computer, some of them will come in the form of AIO, some of them will come in the form of laptop. Doesn't this remind us of what Apple is doing? Why would Intel and AMD do something like this? Because of manufacturing and design costs. You design one solution to scale up from mobile to desktop thermal envelopes. You simplify manufacturing of already extremely complex products, and packages. And don't think that it will not happen. We ALREADY have motherboards with soldered into them mobile chips, like here: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-HM570TI-B-I526

Integration of SOCs is the direction of the whole, overall market. Death of desktop DIY is just emanation of changing preferences of customers. Im not saying that Desktop DIY will die completely, never said it exactly(even when I said that it "will die even more"), just that it will become a nieche within a nieche. Only the highest end, enthusiast level with extremely high profit margin, that is supposed to counteract the lower volume of sales, and extremely high manufacturing and design costs.

That’s a whole lot of speculation

 

[koyoot]

None of that gets you to your claimed proof about M3. See my revised post.

36 GB and 48 GB are the proof of memory controller configuration.

They are only possible on 192, 384 and 768 bit buses, with what Apple is working here(technically, 48 is also possible on 256 bit bus, but its highly unlikely with how Apple designs their Chips).

 

[chucker23n1]

Desktop PC is not dying. Not even close.

Desktop PCs have been trending downwards for two decades. They'll be around for a while but be increasingly niche.

 

[chucker23n1]

We already have 25W 7040U APU designs from AMD that are either beating Apple or tying with Apple M2.

Can you name any actual laptop I can buy with a 7040U "APU" that draws the same power as a MacBook Air and "beats or ties"? Or are you basing this purely on PowerPoint slides from AMD?

 

[chucker23n1]

That’s a whole lot of speculation

What is your counter-argument? That DIY computers are growing?

 

[nathansz]

What is your counter-argument? That DIY computers are growing?

I have no argument one way or another

I’m merely asking someone to provide some evidence for their claims other then speculative rambling

 

[koyoot]

I have no argument one way or another

I’m merely asking someone to provide some evidence for their claims other then speculative rambling

Then look no further to software, and where(in which direction) it is being developed. AI integration to the OS. Thats what will define evolution of hardware.

 

[nathansz]

Then look no further to software, and where(in which direction) it is being developed. AI integration to the OS. Thats what will define evolution of hardware.

That’s just more idle speculation

It’s not even an argument

And certainly not evidence

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Desktop PCs have been trending downwards for two decades. They'll be around for a while but be increasingly niche.

That downward trend is not an indication of dying or niche market. It's an indication of more choices in the market. It was literally 15 years ago when laptops first out sold desktops.

Since then, the PC parts (CPU, GPU, RAM, Storage) market still sold like hot cakes. That's cause it's not about upgrading the entire Desktop, whether it's a Pre-Built or Custom. It's all about upgrading parts.

I'm still on a desktop from 2018 with a X470 MB. Over time: I upgraded from a 1080ti to a 3080ti, went from an AMD 2700x CPU to a 3050x, from a fan cooler to an AIO water cooler, from 16gb slow ram to 64gb faster ram, and etc. All without the need to purchase a completely new desktop PC.

Also, budget custom builds for gaming is very popular. Especially due to Steam and the ability to play Xbox games.

 

[Pinkyyy 💜🍎]

Fall 2023 - M3 iMac / MBA (13" & 15") / 13" MBP

Late Jan 2024 - M3 Pro / Max MBP / M3 Mac mini / M3 Pro Mac mini

Spring 2024 - M3 iPad Pros

M3 15” MBA coming in fall 2023 is very unlikely in my opinion considering the M2 15” MBA just came out in June. I don’t think Apple will update it 4 months later.

What we will see this fall could be the M3 iMac, 13” MBP and maybe the 13” MBA. I can’t really think of when we could possibly see an updated 15” MBA, but it’s very unlikely to be coming this fall.

 

[enb141]

Based on: direction of sales of desktop computers, based on direction of sales of PC parts in the market, based on growing sales of mobile computers, based on direction of Intel and AMD development, and based on direction of technical limits of smaller nodes, in which largest die possible may very soon be 400 mm2 from current 900 mm2, based on piling manufacturing and design costs of chips, while also booming game console market and handheld market, while at the same time - upcoming paradigm shift in how we interact with ocmputers, which Apple Vision Pro is only pointing us. Voice control based interaction with computers, gesture control, AI intergation on OS level. That is coming. VERY rapidly.

Intel invested in dGPU to have drivers ready so they can provide integrated solution, like Apple does. AMD - the same thing, for yuears but only with Strix Point in 2024 we will see finally new design with wider memory bus, and pretty large GPU integrated into the SOC package. But both are investing in AI specifcally to have solutions for the paradigm shift that is coming to how we interact with computers, and you NEED integrated hardware for such solutions, because of the AI capabilities.

Overall market will evolve, it will have to. I expect that in very near future, Nvidia GPUs will become at best current midrange offerings, but not because they will forget about the gaming market. It will be required because of reticle limits of process nodes.

Thats why(evolution of the market) Nvidia also wanted to buy ARM, to be able to integrate their GPUs into CPUs, because currently their designs are incompartible, which recent AI supercomputer, as they call it, shown, where CPU and dGPU parts are on separate substrats, but connected through fabric. With market being pushed into integrated solutions: Nvidia will have no place on consumer market, which will be solely: Intel + AMD integrated designs, unless for Nvidia, something miracoulus happens.

DIY is dying, on consumer side and is becoming a nieche, enthusiast nieche. There is more and more mobile chips being manufactured, mobile chips - soldered into BGA packages.

So what is the direction here? Using those, same BGA packages, and soldering into typical DIY motherboards. You get all of the benefits of upgradebility with all of the drawbacks of integrated systems. You buy whole platform. Some of them will come with soldered RAM, some of them will come in the form of NUC, SFF computer, some of them will come in the form of AIO, some of them will come in the form of laptop. Doesn't this remind us of what Apple is doing? Why would Intel and AMD do something like this? Because of manufacturing and design costs. You design one solution to scale up from mobile to desktop thermal envelopes. You simplify manufacturing of already extremely complex products, and packages. And don't think that it will not happen. We ALREADY have motherboards with soldered into them mobile chips, like here: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-HM570TI-B-I526

Integration of SOCs is the direction of the whole, overall market. Death of desktop DIY is just emanation of changing preferences of customers. Im not saying that Desktop DIY will die completely, never said it exactly(even when I said that it "will die even more"), just that it will become a nieche within a nieche. Only the highest end, enthusiast level with extremely high profit margin, that is supposed to counteract the lower volume of sales, and extremely high manufacturing and design costs.

DIY is BS, in the contrary is increasing by far.

Back in 1997 (the year in which I started building computers) you only had normal CPUs now you have different variations, overclockable, non overclockable, core i3, i5, i5 and even i9, so the difference now is abysmal compared to 1997

Back then you had pretty limited amount of motherboards now you have motherboards with 1 PCI express 16x to different combinations and overclockability options, and lots of PCI express slots.

RAM, in 1997 you had one type RAM, now you have DDR4, DDR5, RGB RAM, overclocked RAM, huge dissipating RAM sticks, etc.

Cases, back then the amount of cases and different form sizes was limited, just ATX, now you have EATC ATX, mATx, uATX, etc, cases with RGB.

CPU coolers, back then you didn't have CPU coolers, the one that came with the CPU was all you got, now you have a zillion different ways to cool your CPU, water cooling or air cooling, name it, now they are zillions.

Video cards, back then didn't exist, back then a single PCI card had soundcard, video card AIO, now just the Nvidia 4090 is a high end computer within a computer.

DIY is not dying, is increasing, what's changing is pre built Desktop computers (non gaming non workstations), those computers used for Excel, email and basic tasks are being replaced by laptops or NUCs but gaming, Gaming PCs, workstations and servers are increasing and most of them are DIY.

 

[NT1440]

DIY is BS, in the contrary is increasing by far.

Back in 1997 (the year in which I started building computers) you only had normal CPUs now you have different variations, overclockable, non overclockable, core i3, i5, i5 and even i9, so the difference now is abysmal compared to 1997

Back then you had pretty limited amount of motherboards now you have motherboards with 1 PCI express 16x to different combinations and overclockability options, and lots of PCI express slots.

RAM, in 1997 you had one type RAM, now you have DDR4, DDR5, RGB RAM, overclocked RAM, huge dissipating RAM sticks, etc.

Cases, back then the amount of cases and different form sizes was limited, just ATX, now you have EATC ATX, mATx, uATX, etc, cases with RGB.

CPU coolers, back then you didn't have CPU coolers, the one that came with the CPU was all you got, now you have a zillion different ways to cool your CPU, water cooling or air cooling, name it, now they are zillions.

Video cards, back then didn't exist, back then a single PCI card had soundcard, video card AIO, now just the Nvidia 4090 is a high end computer within a computer.

DIY is not dying, is increasing, what's changing is pre built Desktop computers (non gaming non workstations), those computers used for Excel, email and basic tasks are being replaced by laptops or NUCs but gaming, Gaming PCs, workstations and servers are increasing and most of them are DIY.

Having merchandise available does not equate that custom builds are increasing amongst the population (especially workstations). Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim?

 

[Ethosik]

Having merchandise available does not equate that custom builds are increasing amongst the population (especially workstations). Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim?

If DYI and desktops were dying, we would not have as many options from AMD, NVIDIA or Intel. In fact, we have more than we ever had 10-20 years ago. K series vs non-K Intel CPUs. i9 when we did not have that before. So many NVIDIA GPUs. Ti and non-Ti. XX90 when XX80 was top end consumer before.

If desktops and DIY were dying, we would start seeing some of these products drop off.

 

[NT1440]

If DYI and desktops were dying, we would not have as many options from AMD, NVIDIA or Intel. In fact, we have more than we ever had 10-20 years ago. K series vs non-K Intel CPUs. i9 when we did not have that before. So many NVIDIA GPUs. Ti and non-Ti. XX90 when XX80 was top end consumer before.

If desktops and DIY were dying, we would start seeing some of these products drop off.

I’m not saying they’re dying, nor am I saying they’re growing. I’m asking for the evidence of the argument being made because the logic of it isn’t quite sound.

There’s millions of accessories out there for cars too, that in itself isn’t an indication that car modding is a *growing* part of the car industry.

 

[enb141]

Having merchandise available does not equate that custom builds are increasing amongst the population (especially workstations). Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim?

The numbers I have are that over years, you get better and more specialized parts in PC DIY industry. Otherwise you will see them less and less, for example back in 1997 you had more options for picking a sound card for your computer, not just gaming computers, now that markets is pretty much Covered by Soundblaster, but the contrary can by applied nowdays with GPUs, Motherboards and CPUs.

 

[NT1440]

The numbers I have are that over years, you get better and more specialized parts in PC DIY industry. Otherwise you will see them less and less, for example back in 1997 you had more options for picking a sound card for your computer, not just gaming computers, now that markets is pretty much Covered by Soundblaster, but the contrary can by applied nowdays with GPUs, Motherboards and CPUs.

So this is an insulated logic exercise instead of looking at actual data for the industry?

I’m just trying to figure out if we’re talking hypothetical logic loops or analyzing what’s actually happening?

 

[koyoot]

If DYI and desktops were dying, we would not have as many options from AMD, NVIDIA or Intel. In fact, we have more than we ever had 10-20 years ago. K series vs non-K Intel CPUs. i9 when we did not have that before. So many NVIDIA GPUs. Ti and non-Ti. XX90 when XX80 was top end consumer before.

If desktops and DIY were dying, we would start seeing some of these products drop off.

Desktop PC sales are going down. DIY parts sales are going down. Just because we have more options does not mean that people are using them.

Even SSD and DRAM manufacturers are posting losses, on commodity items, because nobody is buying anything, but in this case - its because of general downturn caused by macroeconomy.

 

[theorist9]

36 GB and 48 GB are the proof of memory controller configuration.

Logically, it's not, because there's no proof M3 will be 36 GB/48 GB.

Do you not understand that what's contained in the article is merely a rumor from Mark Gurman, who is sometimes right and sometimes wrong?

 

[nathansz]

Desktop PC sales are going down. DIY parts sales are going down. Just because we have more options does not mean that people are using them.

Even SSD and DRAM manufacturers are posting losses, on commodity items, because nobody is buying anything, but in this case - its because of general downturn caused by macroeconomy.

Do you have diy part sales numbers?

Do you ssd and ram sales numbers?

Or is this just more speculation ?

 

[eldho]

If DYI and desktops were dying, we would not have as many options from AMD, NVIDIA or Intel. In fact, we have more than we ever had 10-20 years ago. K series vs non-K Intel CPUs. i9 when we did not have that before. So many NVIDIA GPUs. Ti and non-Ti. XX90 when XX80 was top end consumer before.

If desktops and DIY were dying, we would start seeing some of these products drop off.

In my country, New Zealand, there are a number of companies who build computers for customers using DIY parts so I guess this is a case of there being an intermediary using their skills for those who are not so able to do this for themselves. These are successful enterprises which are certainly not dying away at the present time.

 

[quarkysg]

I would indeed define both of those as capabilities

I don’t see what’s weird about that

Looks like you are just spec chasing then?

Whats the use of tons of memory if those memories accesses are bottlenecked?

A truck is indeed more capable than a sports cars when it comes to hauling cargo, but it’s next to useless on a track or as a daily commuter. Maybe Apple doesn’t want to be hauling cargo for now?

 

[nathansz]

Desktop PCs have been trending downwards for two decades. They'll be around for a while but be increasingly niche.

What an asinine assessment

 

[nathansz]

Looks like you are just spec chasing then?

Whats the use of tons of memory if those memories accesses are bottlenecked?

A truck is indeed more capable than a sports cars when it comes to hauling cargo, but it’s next to useless on a track or as a daily commuter. Maybe Apple doesn’t want to be hauling cargo for now?

Nothing to do with spec chasing

You claimed the current Mac Pro “one ups” the last intel Mac Pro because “overall capabilities”

That was merely one example of how it’s less capable

Meanwhile you have yet to come up with a cogent argument about anything or even give a straight answer to any single question

Yes the current Mac Pro is slightly faster than the the last intel, as it should be after four years have passed regardless of architecture

That’s the only example of “one upping” you’ve come up with yet

If you have an actual argument explaining how the current Mac Pro “one ups” the previous Mac Pro I can’t wait to read it

 

[nathansz]

Having merchandise available does not equate that custom builds are increasing amongst the population (especially workstations). Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim?

Do you have numbers to back the counter claim?

There’s a lot of arguing about this topic and no one seems to have shared any data yet one way or the other

I’m genuinely curious what the facts are and both sides here seem quite confident so I’m wondering why they haven’t shared their data yet….