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Anuba

macrumors 68040
Feb 9, 2005
3,791
394
What's new? Apple has been driven by über-greed for as long as I can remember. They have a rare and shameless kind of thirst for money, it's pathological and goes way beyond what most hardened capitalists would dare dream of. They peddle Chinese-made commodities and pretend like it's exquisite super premium stuff hand made by German engineers. Whatever profit margin competitors have, Apple wants twice that, and then they cry and moan until they figure out a way to quadruple that, all with a bold sense of entitlement that can turn Tea Party fans into communists just from the audacity of it all.

However, at the end of the day, they do make great and desirable products, and if you want to ride that train you're just gonna have to condition yourself to overlook that one-of-a-kind greed because it's not going anywhere. I did it and it worked, I'm "happily" paying their asking prices now, the only residual problem is this weird eye lid twitch I get sometimes when I buy anything Apple.
 
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Reactions: Michaelgtrusa

Santabean2000

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Nov 20, 2007
1,886
2,050
Let's take the Kindle app as an example. It's free. Apple provides storage, bandwidth, delivery system, and customer support for this app. During its approval process, Apple took time to review the code to ensure it wasn't malicious and met its approval guidelines.

For doing all this, Apple doesn't get one cent.

Essentially Apple is finally saying they should get a cut when providing services to competitors that are making a profit by using Apple's resources for free, in some cases for years, and that makes Apple greedy pigs?

Apple makes a stack of cash on every iPad they sell. And this year they will sell a kazillion. But next year? Or the year after? People only buy them because they have apps on there that they want. Keep burning your developers (and consumers) and the selling will drop. Big time.
 

DesmoPilot

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2008
1,185
36
While greedy pig is definitely an over-statement. Speaking from the internal point of view, let's just say the policy-attitude has definitely changed in the last couple years.
 

torbjoern

macrumors 65816
Jun 9, 2009
1,204
6
The Black Lodge
What's new? Apple has been driven by über-greed for as long as I can remember. They have a rare and shameless kind of thirst for money, it's pathological and goes way beyond what most hardened capitalists would dare dream of. They peddle Chinese-made commodities and pretend like it's exquisite super premium stuff hand made by German engineers. Whatever profit margin competitors have, Apple wants twice that, and then they cry and moan until they figure out a way to quadruple that, all with a bold sense of entitlement that can turn Tea Party fans into communists just from the audacity of it all.

However, at the end of the day, they do make great and desirable products, and if you want to ride that train you're just gonna have to condition yourself to overlook that one-of-a-kind greed because it's not going anywhere. I did it and it worked, I'm "happily" paying their asking prices now, the only residual problem is this weird eye lid twitch I get sometimes when I buy anything Apple.

The eye lid twitch is caused by cognitive dissonance which many buyers harmonize by turning into zealous fanboys of their choice. Good on you for being sane enough to write what you just did.

I have written in a different thread that the term "corporate greed" is redundant - and the narcissistic and shameless sense of entitlement is not unique for Apple as a corporation either. I remember right after the recession was official, bank executives took their private jets to Washington DC to beg for funding which they would spend on sky-high bonuses to their executives.

I find it despicable of Apple to charge a 30% cut at the revenue from content, while they're lobbying for tax amnesty at the same time.
 
Last edited:

Fubar1977

macrumors 6502a
Jul 30, 2010
885
31
North Yorkshire, UK
The markets have a way of cutting a company down to size when it starts to get a god-complex.
I don`t think Apple is any more cut-throat than any other large US company but its huge profile means that every action it takes is heavily scrutinized.
I bet Ballmers had a giggle at the thought of Apple being investigated for monopolizing.
 

hishamabri

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2009
8
1
Re

Yes sir, someone else is pissed off by apple's business model
they just think they can do whatever they want
I think their decision is damn stupid, that's what I think.
Apple is no content publisher, it is a provider of machines and their operating systems nothing more! they already got their money off of selling us iPods, iPads, iPhones, Macbooks etc. What the heck are they thinking of asking for some more
I just wish they never make it with this new policy
at least they will try harder to make us buy their products and use their services
this was a turn off to send me back to microsoft. thank you very much
 

hishamabri

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2009
8
1
Let's take the Kindle app as an example. It's free. Apple provides storage, bandwidth, delivery system, and customer support for this app. During its approval process, Apple took time to review the code to ensure it wasn't malicious and met its approval guidelines.

For doing all this, Apple doesn't get one cent.

Amazon, on the other hand, makes profit off of every Kindle book you buy. They take advantage of Apple's infrastructure and effort, for which they pay Apple nothing, because there is no in-app purchase. (The Kindle app has a link to the Kindle Store to buy content via the web.)

So the current state is that the Kindle app uses Apple's resources for no monetary benefit, and for direct gain to Amazon. In fact, the app is a trojan horse that directly competes with Apple's own iBooks app and its content. This is arguably causing a monetary LOSS to Apple by way of lost book purchases to its competitor.

Essentially Apple is finally saying they should get a cut when providing services to competitors that are making a profit by using Apple's resources for free, in some cases for years, and that makes Apple greedy pigs?


Essentially it comes down to this my friend
how many iPads has the kindle app helped sell?
don't tell me that its wrong, many people wouldn't have bought the iPad if it did not have the kindle app, me included.
I think apple should pay Amazon and others some money just so they can provide their services on apple's platforms.
did we forget when apple first launched its iPad and begged every content publisher to provide their services on the iPad :confused:
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Essentially it comes down to this my friend
how many iPads has the kindle app helped sell?
don't tell me that its wrong, many people wouldn't have bought the iPad if it did not have the kindle app, me included.
I think apple should pay Amazon and others some money just so they can provide their services on apple's platforms.
did we forget when apple first launched its iPad and begged every content publisher to provide their services on the iPad :confused:

You actually think the Kindle app is a major factor in iPad sales?

If you really believe this, I've got some great swampland I'm looking to sell . . .
 

hishamabri

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2009
8
1
You actually think the Kindle app is a major factor in iPad sales?

If you really believe this, I've got some great swampland I'm looking to sell . . .

Am not saying the Kindle app itself is what makes iPad sell
Am simply stating the fact that iPad wouldn't have been a success if these publishers and developers did not help create the iPad what it is now

no apps, no magazines, no iPad
 

Liquorpuki

macrumors 68020
Jun 18, 2009
2,286
8
City of Angels
You actually think the Kindle app is a major factor in iPad sales?

If you really believe this, I've got some great swampland I'm looking to sell . . .

Considering the iBooks library sucks, makes sense to me. Anyone who thinks iBooks holds a candle to the Kindle library must not read much
 

Michaelgtrusa

macrumors 604
Oct 13, 2008
7,900
1,821
What's new? Apple has been driven by über-greed for as long as I can remember. They have a rare and shameless kind of thirst for money, it's pathological and goes way beyond what most hardened capitalists would dare dream of. They peddle Chinese-made commodities and pretend like it's exquisite super premium stuff hand made by German engineers. Whatever profit margin competitors have, Apple wants twice that, and then they cry and moan until they figure out a way to quadruple that, all with a bold sense of entitlement that can turn Tea Party fans into communists just from the audacity of it all.

However, at the end of the day, they do make great and desirable products, and if you want to ride that train you're just gonna have to condition yourself to overlook that one-of-a-kind greed because it's not going anywhere. I did it and it worked, I'm "happily" paying their asking prices now, the only residual problem is this weird eye lid twitch I get sometimes when I buy anything Apple.




Not to mention that Apple has had a lot of quality issues that I have uncovered and I was very surprised that they got away with it. Many consumers have defective Apple products that they are not aware of.
 

ehoui

macrumors regular
Jan 27, 2011
217
0
Most companies in high tech try to achieve (or better) the profit margin that Apple achieves. Microsoft, for example, has higher profit margins (%) than Apple.

A business has to reap profits to grow and expand. The question is "how much is too much"? It seems true that an industry full of competing companies with informed consumers can better decide that than any government (or individual consumer, for that matter).

But if you want to vilify companies for reaping profits, you can start with this list which make Apple look saintly:

1. Clothing
2. Water
3. Beverages (Coffee, Soda, ...)
4. Medecine (if you are in the States)
5. Cosmetics
 

G4er?

macrumors 6502a
Jan 6, 2009
639
30
Temple, TX
But if you want to vilify companies for reaping profits, you can start with this list which make Apple look saintly:

1. Clothing
2. Water
3. Beverages (Coffee, Soda, ...)
4. Medecine (if you are in the States)
5. Cosmetics


Add jewelry to that list.
 

iceblade

macrumors member
Jun 17, 2008
91
0
Am I the only one (okay, sorry, one of few) that realizes Apple is a for-profit company? Apple isn't your best friend, or your grandpa, making you fun little toys to play with. Apple found a way to make money, a lot of it, and they're using that advantage; Business 101.

My family almost always buys Apple products. Do we realize its expensive? Yeah, we do. A few of us used Windows for a while, because it provided the same service/better service (for what we needed it for) for a better price. Most of us later realized we liked what Apple had to offer, even if we had to pay more for it, and moved back to Apple. Now, as I am exploring a major in business, I am looking to buy another Windows based computer. Not because I don't like Apple, but because I can't get the cost/performance I need for my major from Apple. Just like if I was a design or art major, and I would have to buy a $1500 macbook pro, even if I preferred Windows, because it is the way my industry/major is.

There really should be a few reasons why you buy a piece of technology:

1. It does what you need.
2. It does what you want.
3. You think it is the fairest price of all your options (lets be honest, there are times we all feel like we are over paying for something that we really want or need... Technology or otherwise).
 

Michaelgtrusa

macrumors 604
Oct 13, 2008
7,900
1,821
What's new? Apple has been driven by über-greed for as long as I can remember. They have a rare and shameless kind of thirst for money, it's pathological and goes way beyond what most hardened capitalists would dare dream of. They peddle Chinese-made commodities and pretend like it's exquisite super premium stuff hand made by German engineers. Whatever profit margin competitors have, Apple wants twice that, and then they cry and moan until they figure out a way to quadruple that, all with a bold sense of entitlement that can turn Tea Party fans into communists just from the audacity of it all.

However, at the end of the day, they do make great and desirable products, and if you want to ride that train you're just gonna have to condition yourself to overlook that one-of-a-kind greed because it's not going anywhere. I did it and it worked, I'm "happily" paying their asking prices now, the only residual problem is this weird eye lid twitch I get sometimes when I buy anything Apple.




Indeed.
 

Melrose

Suspended
Dec 12, 2007
7,806
399
Any company is in the market to make money. We, as the customer, are not forced, coerced, or hypnotized into buying it if we don't want to.

Ergo, we vote with our wallets and the companies that make better products rise to the top.
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
Let's take the Kindle app as an example. It's free. Apple provides storage, bandwidth, delivery system, and customer support for this app. During its approval process, Apple took time to review the code to ensure it wasn't malicious and met its approval guidelines.

For doing all this, Apple doesn't get one cent.

Amazon, on the other hand, makes profit off of every Kindle book you buy. They take advantage of Apple's infrastructure and effort, for which they pay Apple nothing, because there is no in-app purchase. (The Kindle app has a link to the Kindle Store to buy content via the web.)

So the current state is that the Kindle app uses Apple's resources for no monetary benefit, and for direct gain to Amazon. In fact, the app is a trojan horse that directly competes with Apple's own iBooks app and its content. This is arguably causing a monetary LOSS to Apple by way of lost book purchases to its competitor.

Essentially Apple is finally saying they should get a cut when providing services to competitors that are making a profit by using Apple's resources for free, in some cases for years, and that makes Apple greedy pigs?

The problem with this analysis is that omits the fact that Apple itself forces everyone to buy apps only from the App store. Amazon would love to provide Kindle books without the App Store, but Apple doesn't let that happen.

The costs to Apple for something like the Kindle app are also ridiculously small compared to what Apple wants in return. What's really happening here is that Apple wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants a walled garden and then also wants to charge the gardener who keeps the garden lively.

30% is a very high percentage for doing relatively little (especially when it comes to major content distributors like Amazon or the NY Times who are not going to have poorly written apps). This is a naked money grab and it is anti-competitive because anyone who wants to distribute to iPads, iPhones, or iPod touches has only once option. 30% is essentially tantamount to paying for mob "protection."
 

benzslrpee

macrumors 6502
Jan 1, 2007
406
26
of all the apps on iOS that require subscription, what percentage do you guys think are provided by industry players (e.g. Amazon, NetFlix, NYT etc) compared with small dev shops? 90/10, 80/20, 70/30... 50/50? i'm going to use 90/10 as the base case example.

here's a basic model for a subscription service:
content creator => publisher/producer (P/P) => distribution channel/subscription provider => customer

traditionally P/P gained the most in the model. in print media the P/P and subscription provider were often the same like NYT. they acted as a gateway, filtered the product to get the cream of the crop, marketed the hell out of it and shipped to the retail channels. however, 2 problems (or changes) cropped up:

1. people are now opened to all sorts of media irregardless of quality. here's an extreme example, The Dark Knight in my opinion is superlative film making and then you have fart apps... point is, consumers spent real money for both.

2. the way people consume media is radically changing. all that means is that interaction with media is changing from a planned action (fireside chats with FDR) to a habitual one (YouTubing while on the pot... what, you guys don't do that?).

given this scenario why are publishers or producers needed aside from financing? financing isn't hard seeing as how active our capital markets are. finding content creators isn't difficult if your customers aren't picky about quality. but providing customers? that is difficult. how do you guarantee a video to viral as opposed getting only a few hundred hits? how do you guarantee a user base?

suddenly distributors just moved upstream. you're an aspiring writer? don't waste your time with Random House, just scan your novel into a PDF and sell it on Amazon. that's where writers want their novels to end up right? you made your own TV show? why try to pitch it to NBC when NetFlix is willing to buy TV shows? this segment is where Amazon, NetFlix and Apple all play in right now. it's pretty weird because NetFlix operating on iOS is essentially a distributor distributing to another distributor. this suggests that companies see the current real value of media in the customer base. that is what's being fought over.

Amazon's Kindle user base is nice but add iOS and Android in the mix then you're talking some heavy numbers. they can use that as leverage against publishers to increase their margins. the same leverage can be used against iOS and Android. if Apple/Google want the Kindle user base on their phone OS then they better pay up. now i don't know how many people use the Kindle app, maybe a couple million or a couple thousand. doesn't matter. what does matter is when NetFlix, Hulu, Rdio, Mog, Rhapsody, The Daily, NYT all start doing the same thing because thats when some heavy numbers will be shifting. if that's the case, do phone OSes provide value then? at that point, the value could be in the subscription services an OS provider is able to contract which means they have ineffective control in attracting users (e.g Meego and Bada).

Google does a great job using this strategy. Motorola, HTC, Samsung and LG are only as good as the version of Android OS they are running. anything less than the current stock release causes dissatisfaction not because the phone is broken but simply because it doesn't have version X. a Nexus phone is periodically released to remind its user base on what the ideal Android phone is, thus discouraging the hardware guys from getting fancy with Android. It's essentially a silent warning that at anytime Google can rip the users from Moto/HTC/Sammy by making their own phone because Android is providing the value, not the hardware. it's a free OS. the hardware guys are only good for a touch screen, plastic body and camera. it sucks when you can't differentiate your product.

finally, why the 30% and rigid price structure?

1. it serves as a test to see who's got the bigger pair. if the pricing pressure is pushed towards the consumer it may indicate that P/P still have muscle left and that subscription businesses are still maturing. basically nothing has changed. if the pressure moves towards the P/P then it may hint at a power shift within the media industry. this would give phone OS makers something to chew on. which leads to #2...

2. a percentage cut + price structure helps retain OS equity. the cut affects the subscription companies' and P/P's business control. do they tell customers they increase price, do they re-negotiate with each other or take it to court? without the ability to differentiate on price, it becomes difficult for subscription business to pit OS makers against one another. it all takes time to settle the uncertainties.

3. time. iPhone came out in 2007, the first Android phone in 2008 and by 2009 Windows Mobile/Blackberry/Symbian were hurting bad. how long does the average corporate lawsuit take to get settled? i have no idea, but anything less than half a year is too long seeing how fast this market is moving.


i don't really see this as a grab for money. 30% of Netflix's 3Q 2010 operating cash flow is only .4% of Apple's, that's assuming Apple takes all of their 12 million subscriber base. movies/tv streaming services are supposed to have higher margins than music which have higher margins than ebooks. i honestly doubt Apple will risk pissing off business partners for such a small bump in cash flow.

to me, it just makes more sense to see this as a powerplay in a new business market where companies are battling for strategic and comparative advantages. we see NetFlix trying to move their value chain upstream, we see HP doing the same with WebOS, Amazon is trying to break into digital publishing, Google seemed to have the same plan albeit with less aggressive pricing... probably offset due to their influences on the hardware side.

it's not about being greedy, evil or a jerk. it's simply good business, struggling business or Blockbuster and Borders. which one do you think companies would choose?
 

Michaelgtrusa

macrumors 604
Oct 13, 2008
7,900
1,821
What's new? Apple has been driven by über-greed for as long as I can remember. They have a rare and shameless kind of thirst for money, it's pathological and goes way beyond what most hardened capitalists would dare dream of. They peddle Chinese-made commodities and pretend like it's exquisite super premium stuff hand made by German engineers. Whatever profit margin competitors have, Apple wants twice that, and then they cry and moan until they figure out a way to quadruple that, all with a bold sense of entitlement that can turn Tea Party fans into communists just from the audacity of it all.

However, at the end of the day, they do make great and desirable products, and if you want to ride that train you're just gonna have to condition yourself to overlook that one-of-a-kind greed because it's not going anywhere. I did it and it worked, I'm "happily" paying their asking prices now, the only residual problem is this weird eye lid twitch I get sometimes when I buy anything Apple.




Let's hope we don't have to hold the iPhone 5 another way this time.
 

KingCrimson

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2011
1,066
0
All companies are greedy pigs. Apple is just playing the greed game better then anyone else right now and that makes some people very angry.
 
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