This reminds me of a friend who brought his son to eat at a restaurant one day, and now he keeps whining about want to eat only at that restaurant every day and refused to eat anything else. 🫤
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Apple 'Tracking Employee Attendance' in Crackdown on Remote Working
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This reminds me of a friend who brought his son to eat at a restaurant one day, and now he keeps whining about want to eat only at that restaurant every day and refused to eat anything else. 🫤
The worst people to say it works are the workers who don’t have the big picture.
You have it exactly backwards. What ever you are living is the literal definition of anecdotal. Statistics tell the big picture story so we don't make the mistake of drawing broad conclusions about labor policy based on one person's day at the office.
Would an example of this be to ask "what is the lead time on faucet cartridges" to elicit an answer specifically to argue that people don't understand the value of work?
Sure they did:
We now have more construction workers than we did before the pandemic began.
In fact they returned to work sooner and at a higher rate than workers in general:
Remember the last financial crisis fueled by cheap mortgages funding an enormous housing bubble and driving a massive construction boom to meet that demand? We have more construction workers than we did at the peak of that insanity:
Not so. I can't find a specific metric for faucet cartridges, but I'd assume marginal demand tracks new construction to a large degree, and aircraft orders are experiencing a surge as well.
So it has nothing to do with people not valuing work. We have more people working than ever before but a significant surge in demand for products. That means shortages and inflation-- which is pretty much what we're seeing.
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Acting like children?
You do realize that with whatever limited instruments they have(tantrums etc.) children can still overtake the initiative and influence things? I hope you are not denying professionals the ability to influence the decision making that can result in the betterment of their position.
Any rational person who works an ordinary job for middle-class pay would say, “you know, I want to encourage more people like you and me to find ways to work that reduces the time we waste away from our families, commuting in traffic, spending extra money on gas and lunch outside of the house, and polluting the environment with needless burning of fossil fuel. Therefore, we should all be pushing back when companies want to reduce workers’ quality of life while the ultra-rich spend the “work day” out on the links (you know, also not working from the office); yet, continue to get wealthier off of our backs and amass more power over our lives.”
But instead, you get a bunch of people who are shouting about how unless you spend 2 hours every day in a car driving to your job where you work 90 hours/week in a sweatshop for a $10 paycheck, you’re “lazy and entitled.” God forbid, people want to reclaim a little bit of time back in exchange for giving up the majority of the best, healthiest years of their life to a soulless company and its wealthy owners whose biggest dilemma in life is deciding which yacht to take out on the lake this weekend.
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Incorrect. It's not up to the employee to tell mgmt the big picture. The employee (and we are discussing Silicon Valley type tech people) can find better opportunities elsewhere. If you want to push back, that would mean getting fired. We'll wait to hear your "success" story with that tactic.
Are you discussing the hospitality business or Silicon Valley tech types? Because the last I looked Silicon Valley tech types don't make $10 hour. You are moving the goal posts because your argument is not cogent.
Sure, let 'em reclaim a little bit of time. Let 'em quit. They'll have all the time in world (limited only by death) to do what they want.
I can’t work from home, but I don’t get this
I mean if I had remote workers I wouldn’t want them to come in unless they had to, costs more the heat/AC/clean, plus liability if they fall or stick a fork in a outlet or something
Seems silly and for a tech company a disappointing lack of the industry, if they are getting their work done on time and to spec, why care?
This seems like the idea of a low tech mangement type “if I don’t see them working they are not working”
I mean if I had remote workers I wouldn’t want them to come in unless they had to, costs more the heat/AC/clean, plus liability if they fall or stick a fork in a outlet or something
Seems silly and for a tech company a disappointing lack of the industry, if they are getting their work done on time and to spec, why care?
This seems like the idea of a low tech mangement type “if I don’t see them working they are not working”
My stint at Apple was relatively brief, but I can say that for many groups, the whole chance meeting thing is mostly ********. Silicon Valley was having some serious quality of life issues before the pandemic, and they haven't gotten any better. SV is NYC's rents with LA's traffic, and none of the upsides. Even Apple has realized this and is expanding in Austin, NYC, Culver City, and other areas. I live less than ten miles from Apples' campuses, but some days it would take me over an hour to get home. Once I went to an event in Oakland after work - that trip took over two hours. A literal burned out husk of a house on a tiny patch of land sold for $800K in my neighborhood. Even with a six-figure salary, housing in the Bay Area is simply unaffordable - especially if you have a family. A meager mid-century that needs a lot of work will run seven figures. Forget about touching a decent condo for less than half a mil.
This is why people want remote work. They simply can't afford to live near work anymore, and don't want to spend hours every day commuting. Robert Reich put it best, people want to work, they no longer want to be exploited.
As for AP itself, it was neat walking through the campus with all the trees. But I am grateful I never had to work there. The interior colors are all the same bland beige, slate, and white, with the occasional green accent wall. The only "art" are high resolution photos of Apple products. The workstations are enclosed, but with glass so there is no privacy. Sound carries easily and conversations are often overheard, including ones that shouldn't be. Outside, the park is lovely, but actually working inside is not. Because of secrecy requirements, certain areas are closed off, making moving between sections difficult.
As an IC, I still had plenty of meetings. Problem was, the company is huge and everyone has meetings. Even if you could get a meeting room, often it wasn't large enough to accommodate everyone. I wound up using WebEx for most meetings anyway. Then of course there was the mad shuffle of people on the hour, every hour, as they rush from building to building, though TBH, it was the same **** as when I contracted at MS many years ago.
Some groups do work well in person, but not all do. Having a blanket policy for a company as large and diverse (in terms of teams, projects, requirements) as Apple is a really dumb idea. But Apple should not have kept expanding in Cupertino. Honesty, no new office space should be allowed in the Bay Area until housing catches up with demand. And housing near these campuses needs to be dense, urban housing with public transit. I can understand why the NIMBYs in Marin and San Mateo desperately want to cling to what they have, but their intransigence means that no new businesses should be allowed.
US workers need to learn from the French.
This is why people want remote work. They simply can't afford to live near work anymore, and don't want to spend hours every day commuting. Robert Reich put it best, people want to work, they no longer want to be exploited.
As for AP itself, it was neat walking through the campus with all the trees. But I am grateful I never had to work there. The interior colors are all the same bland beige, slate, and white, with the occasional green accent wall. The only "art" are high resolution photos of Apple products. The workstations are enclosed, but with glass so there is no privacy. Sound carries easily and conversations are often overheard, including ones that shouldn't be. Outside, the park is lovely, but actually working inside is not. Because of secrecy requirements, certain areas are closed off, making moving between sections difficult.
As an IC, I still had plenty of meetings. Problem was, the company is huge and everyone has meetings. Even if you could get a meeting room, often it wasn't large enough to accommodate everyone. I wound up using WebEx for most meetings anyway. Then of course there was the mad shuffle of people on the hour, every hour, as they rush from building to building, though TBH, it was the same **** as when I contracted at MS many years ago.
Some groups do work well in person, but not all do. Having a blanket policy for a company as large and diverse (in terms of teams, projects, requirements) as Apple is a really dumb idea. But Apple should not have kept expanding in Cupertino. Honesty, no new office space should be allowed in the Bay Area until housing catches up with demand. And housing near these campuses needs to be dense, urban housing with public transit. I can understand why the NIMBYs in Marin and San Mateo desperately want to cling to what they have, but their intransigence means that no new businesses should be allowed.
US workers need to learn from the French.
Do you have any indication the majority (or even a significant percentage) of Apple employees are unhappy with Apple’s workplace culture?
Meh, I might have had it, never bothered to test, didn’t feel that bad, whatever
It was also funny seeing rather portly people going through the drive through by the cafe I was going to with a full face shield on, like I’m confused you’re really health conscious but you also treat your body like a dumpster
Folks be weird
But the one good thing from covid was helping of cubical workers escape the cubical farm, I really didn’t get the pushback from companies, I’d be happy as a clam, I mean I don’t need to pay for this giant office anymore and everything still gets done?
Seems for the owners that means less red ink and more cash in the bank
How do we here at MR know said employees are as productive as apple wants us to be and getting “our” work done to spec?
I think that’s not a Birds Eye view at senior mgmt level.
Tracking employee attendance in a crackdown on remote working is an ordinary part of an Apple's workplace culture?
You focus on the commute and are ignoring the actual job productivity (as measured by innovation and quality)?
Another way of looking at this discussion is this: you are reading posts from a lot of people with experience, life experience (or as you would call them, boomers) who might know what success looks like. Sitting at home working isolated from all other people is not that. You can blow them off all you want, but then you have to accept that most of your paycheck goes to rent and food, due to real estate inflation and price inflation that comes with your new lifestyle.
What comes across from the WFH crowd is they want an improved quality of life that comes with working less stressfully, but at the same time think they can keep their overall quality of life living in their community that has so far existed with an abundance of everything. You can't have one without the other. If you want high QOL you have to work for it or bring a level of talent that can't be easily reproduced.
SOMEBODY has to work hard to give us this quality of life. The WFH crowd is basically saying it should be someone else, while they get to enjoy the best of both worlds. You are hearing people telling you that's not possible, because it is just not sustainable. WFHers believe they can be just as "productive" by some metric. But by not contributing to the bigger team/community/neighborhood they are simply a leech, because they are only helping themselves, not others via the soft effects of their work. A small taste of real world examples are having to pay for parking, which employs a parking manager, paying for your soy oat latte which employs someone who has to make it just right for you, etc, etc etc... Maybe while at work you realize you left your glasses at the coffee shop and race back to get them before they are lost. While racing there you peel away 1mm of extra concrete from the roads, so there's another job for someone to repair that road. The list is endless.
Look at the absolute mess WFH and leeching off the economy has done to the real estate market, commodity market and even more tangibly the car market.
Making predictions is always impossible and almost always wrong. But it does seem the WFH are entrenched at this point and standoffs like this would continue. In that scenario, I would expect QOL in America to significantly drop over the next 5 years (with the requisite of blame XXXX political party who in power) as quality and innovation continue to drop. Some of those pieces will continue to move offshore to never return. The other scenario I am hoping for is WFH gets cut to a small % and people resume back to working in teams for a greater good. And don't forget, when people tell you that you are working for some fat billionaire, its wrong, you are actually working for your community, every $ you bring in diffuses all around the country. There will always be billionaires, but that's not where the majority of your work actually goes.
We’ll if they didn’t get the work done fire them on a zoom call with everyone on it as you address the issue, problem solved and staying solved
I’d also wager the person who doesn’t do their work at home probably wasn’t getting much done at the office ether 🤷♂️
The topic suggests that there might have been a deliberate change in an existing procedure or even an entirely new procedure added in order to address the issue.
WFH doesn't equate to lack of productivity. Some folks work even harder because it can be hard to step away from your computer and not answer that call/Team's chat. In fact, productivity is probably higher than working in the office because you don't have the folks huddled around your office/cubicle gossiping.
Inflation is caused by greed plain and simple. Prices are raised because people are willing to pay for it as they don't really have a choice when rich owners collaborate on pricing. I talked to an owner of a plumbing company who basically told me they had to raise prices to keep up with other plumbers. It sounded dumb to me because if they stayed low, they'd attract more business one would think.
Greed, ego, stupidity, and the battle over ideology are ruining the country and the world. Meanwhile, they will continue to tear down trees, plants and grass to build another mall to generate money. One has to wonder how much plant life is needed to generate enough oxygen for this planet?
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A lot of jobs these days involve working on a computer all day and can effectively be done from anywhere. There are better ways to measure performance than butts in chairs.
Look, WFH doesn't apply and doesn't work in all cases. But can we please stop saying you are lazy if you WFH? I have been WFH off and on for over a decade. I am far more productive WFH - I have stats that prove it. It works for me. I live alone, no pets, no family, no kids, have a dedicated office with no TV.....literally no distractions while I work. It doesn't work for you? Great! Flexibility is great! Open office plans are a major distraction. You will get three people who are cube-mates talking about movies for TWO HOURS...on top of their one hour lunch break. It's distracting to me trying to work, and they obviously aren't working for THREE HOURS. Just because you go to the office doesn't mean it's any better. They would see the boss start to walk buy and change the topic or go back to work, then come back after the boss leaves to keep the discussion going.
People are making severe over the top arguments on both sides. Office work is not the almighty perfect place where productivity shines in ALL CASES. Neither does work from home.
And some examples are provided like people still being able to work with sick kids and people think that's bad? Are they getting their job done? That is all that matters. We need to stop with the work ONLY CAN BE DONE between 8-5 mindset. Like I mentioned before, I know people that even have a split schedule. Work from 6 AM to 2 PM, then work again at 7 PM until 10 PM. That is even more than a typical work day. I know people that do their laundry or take short breaks. But those people work until 6 or even 7.
I average about a 10 hour working day when I WFH because those two hours I would be in the car I just keep on working. I don't get paid for extra hours.
People are making severe over the top arguments on both sides. Office work is not the almighty perfect place where productivity shines in ALL CASES. Neither does work from home.
And some examples are provided like people still being able to work with sick kids and people think that's bad? Are they getting their job done? That is all that matters. We need to stop with the work ONLY CAN BE DONE between 8-5 mindset. Like I mentioned before, I know people that even have a split schedule. Work from 6 AM to 2 PM, then work again at 7 PM until 10 PM. That is even more than a typical work day. I know people that do their laundry or take short breaks. But those people work until 6 or even 7.
I average about a 10 hour working day when I WFH because those two hours I would be in the car I just keep on working. I don't get paid for extra hours.
I can see one being more productive at home if they don't have to interact with people and have no distractions and all they have is a singular focus that they can bang out.
Totally agree. Not only over the top arguments but anecdotal arguments that are said in the general sense as a fact.
It definitely could be if the parents who are employees cannot do what is needed with this flexibility.
Let's say no, they are not.
They aren't getting the job done and these parents should have called in sick.
Yes, yes. Anecdotally there are tens of millions of different situations.
If you're an exempt employee you wouldn't get paid hourly. Hopefully you get your due in your variable compensation.
Then they should get fired. Not micromanaged and someone watching over their shoulder every minute of every hour at the office. Because if they don't get their work done at home, they are likely to slack off at the office too. Use their phones at their desk, chit chat with cube-mates etc.
I am salary. I don't get paid more if I work 10 hours, 16 hours or the normal 8 hours. I don't have variable compensation, just flat salary.