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Ok thanks - very much appreciate the quick response, along with your detailed posts in this thread.

Yes. Thanks to DrV for his information.
If it were at infinity, which with respect is what you stated earlier in the thread, then "readers" wouldn't be necessary - people who are only long sighted and require reading glasses would not need vision correction to view something at infinity, surely?
I've been nearsighted most of my life. When I needed cataract surgery a few years ago, I was converted to farsightedness. I wear progressives with almost no upper lens correction except for slight astigmatism. I can see from 5 feet to infinity without my glasses. So based upon everything mentioned, I suspect I might not even need lenses for the AVP. Made an appointment with my optometrist for next week to refine by correction. Apple really should have already published specs on this exact subject with details of how and when the lenses will be obtained.
 
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While I'm surprised that it's not more expensive since it's Apple, it's still higher than it can be. Other VR headsets have "clip on" prescription lenses for 50$-70$ and with options for astigmatism. I would imagine these same companies will create their own lenses for a cheaper alternative (HonsVR and VROptician were the options I remember looking into)
 
Hot take: Vision Pro shouldn't cost more for people who need glasses. Apple should just eat the cost of the lenses and make the product cost the same for everyone.
 
I do not have any inside information on the device, so I am not claiming your numbers would be wrong. They may well be right. However, I would not trust eyewitnesses in this case...

The big, ugly elephant in the virtual room is called vergence-accommodation conflict (or something similar depending on the context). Our brain has multiple ways of determining the distance of an object. Some of them only depend on the content of the image, e.g., we can determine or estimate depth from a 2D display by understanding what is in the image. For example, mountains are usually far and large, mice are small, an object occluded by another one is farther away, hazy objects are likely to be far away, etc.

However, there are two (or three, where two are closely interrelated) physical methods which we can use at close or intermediate distances.

First, we have stereopsis; each eye sees a slightly different image as the viewing angle is different. Stereopsis is good for up to a couple of hundred meters depending on a large number of variables. The accuracy, naturally, is better at closer range.

Second, or possibly another branch of stereopsis, is convergence. If we look at objects close to our eyes, we tend to squint our eyes inwards so that whatever we are focusing on is at the same position on both retinae. This mechanism blends seamlessly with the first mechanism, so telling them apart is difficult. What is important is that VR glasses (and 3D picture viewers from the 19th century) use this principle to create an illusion of depth.

Third, we use the eye accommodation information or, in photography terms, read the distance from the focusing ring of our lens. If we need to squeeze the lens, we know the object is relatively near. This mechanism functions up to a couple of meters, beyond that eyes should be relaxed. The full story behind accommodation information seems to be quite complex, but I'll save this audience from the interesting properties of the non-ideal PSF (Point Spread Function) of the human eye.

A major challenge with VR glasses is the mismatch between accommodation (focus) and convergence (stereo vision). Regardless of the virtual distance of an object, we use the same focus distance for our eyes when we focus on a virtual screen. This results in erroneous distance and size perception depending on the relative distance of an object and the virtual screen. Also, when our brain detects conflicting information, it often guesses it is because we have eaten something rotten and should immediately dispose of whatever is in the digestive tract. (This is not the only factor behind VR sickness. Motion sickness comes into play due to visual latency between movement and image, and due to mismatch between the balance information from the inner ear and the image from our eyes.)

Different VR glass vendors have chosen different focus distances. IIRC, Oculus DK1 was at infinity, and DK2 at around 1.5 m. Microsoft Hololens is at 2.0 m.

But back to the reliability of eyewitnesses in this case. Due to reasons loosely associated with the vergence-accomodation conflict, people usually underestimate the distance of a virtual screen. A screen at infinity may be reported to be floating at 2 m. So, if users say the screen looks as if it was at 1.5 m, its optical distance is probably between 2 m and infinity.

There is a lot of research on the topic, as reducing vergence-accommodation conflict is literally a billion-dollar question, but the distance setting seems to be a bit of a black art. Purely from the eye strain point of view, it would be best to place the screen at infinity. However, that maximizes the vergence-accommodation conflict for objects close to the viewer. It also ensures that mild myopes need glasses—or would need glasses—and thus a slightly closer focus distance makes more people happier with the expense of eye strain for emmetropes (people with "normal" vision; quotes due to the fact that they are in minority).

A long story, but we do not really know before a) Apple releases some specifications or b) someone measures the distance. Not that it would be very important, though.
Long story short, you're gonna get seasick and throw up if you don't take them off the second you feel funny!
 
Ok thanks - very much appreciate the quick response, along with your detailed posts in this thread.

If it were at infinity, which with respect is what you stated earlier in the thread, then "readers" wouldn't be necessary - people who are only long sighted and require reading glasses would not need vision correction to view something at infinity, surely?
I may have been the person you saw mentioning 1.5-2m. That was something I had picked up from reading accounts of people who got demos of the VP at the announcement last year. I think those were estimates based on what they could see. I don’t know that Apple has revealed the focal distance, yet. We may not know for sure until Apple releases tech specs or someone finds more details in some library code. Sorry that I cannot provide any more certainty. I merely quoted that distance to clarify that it you would not be expected to focus close to your eyes but at a comfortable distance and that these would not be a need for much accommodation .
 
I may have been the person you saw mentioning 1.5-2m. That was something I had picked up from reading accounts of people who got demos of the VP at the announcement last year. I think those were estimates based on what they could see. I don’t know that Apple has revealed the focal distance, yet. We may not know for sure until Apple releases tech specs or someone finds more details in some library code. Sorry that I cannot provide any more certainty. I merely quoted that distance to clarify that it you would not be expected to focus close to your eyes but at a comfortable distance and that these would not be a need for much accommodation .
Many thanks - hopefully we won't have to wait until Feb 2nd to find out, because I rather suspect by then there will be a significant wait for new orders.
 
As others pointed out, contacts should work fine. I wear progressives so I'm probably SOL anyway, so my vision saved me 3 grand..
I normally wear progressives, but they are annoying with VR, as single vision works better. So I got a single vision pair and I needed to use my distance prescription for those glasses, which initially surprised me.
 
Great so I will have to spend $149 every year on new inserts when my prescription changes, in addition to what I already spend on regular prescription glasses, prescription computer glasses and prescription sun glasses.

This gimmicky product just got crossed off my wish list.
Why would you even have products you consider “gimmicky” on your wish list?
 
Any vision expert care to explain why Apple couldn't do this in software?
You can’t really fix focus in software, because the source image is sharp, the eye is just not focusing correctly on it. Best they could likely do in software is offer a blur effect to simulate that everyone is equally out of focus. o_O
 
Man... this product is gonna suck when purchased used...

"Oh yeah the lenses it came with don't agree with my eyes, the head band is too large/small for my head, and the face guard is also the wrong size."
I feel the same way about any glasses, honestly. Seems like the kind of product you want to buy new.
 
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I don't quite understand how prescriptions would work here..

The screens you're looking at are right by your eyes - so does that mean if you're nearsighted you wouldn't need to wear your glasses (e.g. use the zeiss lenses) at all?

Or does the way the screens work make you need them for things that 'look' far away on the screens?

I've never really thought about this and it's breaking my brain lol
 
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You might need to see a doctor if your prescription is changing that dramatically year over year (depending on age).

Also, in the next decade this technology is going to progress rapidly. In the meantime, I’d rather spend that amount on LASIK…
LASIK eyes over here since about 8 years ago… no amount of contacts/prescription-glasses over 10 years or so managed to give the crystal clear sharp eyesight that the LASIK eyes did.
Now I take it for granted except for when someone reminds me of it, what a miraculous piece of tech.

Wondering how will the Vision Pro fare regarding near/far focus though, as it’s supposedly quite close distance.
 
I don't quite understand how prescriptions would work here..

The screens you're looking at are right by your eyes - so does that mean if you're nearsighted you wouldn't need to wear your glasses (e.g. use the zeiss lenses) at all?

Or does the way the screens work make you need them for things that 'look' far away on the screens?

I've never really thought about this and it's breaking my brain lol
Far, in my experience. A Google search shows the Quest 2 as having a focal distance of 1.3 metres. My single vision distance glasses work well for me there, whereas my progressives show the different prescription zones quite obviously. Apple may use a different focal length, but it will likely be similar, so I would think that farsighted people will likely not need prescription lenses, but nearsighted will.
 
Wondering how will the Vision Pro fare regarding near/far focus though, as it’s supposedly quite close distance.
What exactly is supposedly quite close? The screen or the focal distance? The screen is obviously quite close since it is hanging on your face, but I haven’t heard that for the focal distance.
 
You mean I bought that $25 polishing cloth for no reason now since it's included with the AVP? I guess now I'll have 2 polishing cloths one for each hand as I polish away the sin from my devices.
 
Man... this product is gonna suck when purchased used...

"Oh yeah the lenses it came with don't agree with my eyes, the head band is too large/small for my head, and the face guard is also the wrong size."
The lenses are a separate purchase to begin with, and I expect Apple will sell head bands and face guards separately also, for people who want to share with family or buy used.
 
So my genes determine how much I pay for the Vision Pro? I was born with terrible vision and I get to pay more money if I want one of these things. Yay me.
Wouldn't we all like free things just because of our genes? Must be wonderful to get free prescription glasses or contact lenses.
 
Wouldn't we all like free things just because of our genes? Must be wonderful to get free prescription glasses or contact lenses.
There is one consolation for us myopes... Myopia and intelligence have a relatively strong positive correlation confirmed by numerous large studies.
 
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There is one consolation for us myopes... Myopia and intelligence have a relatively strong positive correlation confirmed by numerous large studies.

I'm assuming you are not referring to a lack of imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight; but vision problems.

While correlation doesn''t imply causation, given one cause of myopia can be excessive reading there could be a casual factor. If there is, a correlation would not be surprising, in that intelligence may result in more reading and thus a higher incidence of myopia; although the reverse may not be true, i.e. all myopes are likely to be intelligent, especially since mopia is a common vision problem.
 
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You could simply clean it. Problem solved.
If only. The interior surface area that rests on the skin looks to be rather large. Do you think some Apple Store clerk is going to spend the time going over it with disinfectant too? Then there's all the stuff people put into their hair, and there is now two straps that rub against the hair.

An Apple Store employee will spend more time cleaning it than actually spending time fitting it to a prospective customer.
 
I'm assuming you are not referring to a lack of imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight; but vision problems.

While correlation doesn''t imply causation, given one cause of myopia can be excessive reading there could be a casual factor. If there is, a correlation would not be surprising, in that intelligence may result in more reading and thus a higher incidence of myopia; although the reverse may not be true, i.e. all myopes are likely to be intelligent, especially since mopia is a common vision problem.
While being somewhat OT, this is an interesting question.

The correlation (yes, with vision problems) is there without question. It has been found in many different populations. The underlying mechanism (or mechanisms) is unclear.

At least the following have been suggested:
  1. Reading is correlated with intelligence, and too much time focusing too near makes onw short-sighted. This, however, is also an interesting question on its own, and we will find out quite soon... We have arranged a very widespread experiment with almost all kids in the first world spending their time with their nose glued to a display. If the connection is through near focusing, the intelligence correlation should disappear in younger generations, as now it is not only the bookworms who focus near. Another hypothesis about myopia is that it is partly caused by too little time spent outdoors in natural lighting. If this is the case, the intelligence relation may turn upside down, as education/intelligence and exercise have a positive correlation in today's world.
  2. Myopia has a strong genetic component. Myopes have been disadvantaged in the past, as they have not been able to see whatever they want to eat or wants to eat them. Only intelligent myopes have survived, i.e., myopia genes have survived only when they have been linked to quicker thinking.
  3. There may be a single gene responsible for large part of myopia, and this single gene increases intelligence.
  4. Ordinary myopia is caused by overdevelopment of eye (the eyeball grows too long). As our eyes are very closely linked to our brain (retina is part of the central nervous system and thus part of the brain), myopia may be an indication of faster brain growth.
All explanations have their merits and emprical data to back them up has been discussed in scientific literature. I used to make my students' life miserable by asking them whether "too much reading makes you short-sighted" (#1 above) holds true. The answer is a strong and definite maybe.

My own belief is that all of the above are true with the exception of point #3. The single gene explanation is not that strong as the gene has not been found, and we know it is very difficult to pinpoint any intelligence genes. If there were a single gene linked to both myopia and intelligence, it should shine like a beacon from our genome.

As we talk about a statistical correlation, it is possible to be intelligent without being a myope, and it is possible to be a myope without being clever...
 
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While being somewhat OT, this is an interesting question.

The correlation (yes, with vision problems) is there without question. It has been found in many different populations. The underlying mechanism (or mechanisms) is unclear.

At least the following have been suggested:
  1. Reading is correlated with intelligence, and too much time focusing too near makes onw short-sighted. This, however, is also an interesting question on its own, and we will find out quite soon... We have arranged a very widespread experiment with almost all kids in the first world spending their time with their nose glued to a display. If the connection is through near focusing, the intelligence correlation should disappear in younger generations, as now it is not only the bookworms who focus near. Another hypothesis about myopia is that it is partly caused by too little time spent outdoors in natural lighting. If this is the case, the intelligence relation may turn upside down, as education/intelligence and exercise have a positive correlation in today's world.

As we talk about a statistical correlation, it is possible to be intelligent without being a myope, and it is possible to be a myope without being clever...

Thanks, very thoughtful post. Beyond kids, it would be interesting to see if certain occupations have a statistically valid higher incidence; for example submariners. We spend most of our time staring at gauges or reading, with no natural light for extended periods. Since submariners tend to start as young adults (18-21) it would be interesting to see the incidence of myopia vs years on the boats.

TO be sorta on topic, a lot of my fellow submariners wore glasses; as did I even before entering the submarine service.
Apple's new CR headset would have been fun to have while deployed...
 
These lenses would be similar to the computer monitor glasses that some people get. They adapt your eyes to a focal distance appropriate to where your monitor sits. With the VP, everything is generated at a virtual distance of around 1.5-2m so when you go in for a fitting, they’ll target a prescription for that distance. If a simple diopter adjustment is enough, they you would be able to use the cheaper “reader” lenses.
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by "everything is generated at a virtual distance of around 1.5-2m?" I thought the point was that virtual objects, like screens/app windows/etc. can be placed at a variety of virtual distances from the user. You can have a movie play in a smaller screen close to you, or a giant movie-theater size screen some feet away, for instance. I don't know a ton about optics, for what it's worth!
 
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Would you mind clarifying what you mean by "everything is generated at a virtual distance of around 1.5-2m?" I thought the point was that virtual objects, like screens/app windows/etc. can be placed at a variety of virtual distances from the user. You can have a movie play in a smaller screen close to you, or a giant movie-theater size screen some feet away, for instance. I don't know a ton about optics, for what it's worth!
I think it just means that windows and such are placed at about that distance. I have read in Apple’s dev docs that they recommend putting objects no closer than 1m. I assume that users can still zoom in on things. This probably covers the default viewing distance. This is mostly based on first-hand reports of people who went through the live demos at the announcement event. Hopefully Apple releases some more technical documentation soon so that people can prepare before they have to go in for a fitting.
 
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