Apple waiting on Intel [Kaby Lake or Cannonlake]

[JimGoshorn]

I like to see some proof that apple is waiting for kaby lake.

If they haven't said anything to indicate they are even still committed to the Mac Pro, do you really think that they will tell you why they haven't produced one yet? Right now, the are busy innovating the story for when they finally make an announcement.

 

[shaunp]

I like to see some proof that apple is waiting for kaby lake.

You've probably got more chance of going to the moon! Apple don't give anything away.
[doublepost=1490385686][/doublepost]

The MP6,1 uses E5-x6xx v2 CPUs, there have been two updates since it was released.

Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact release number (couldn't be bothered to look it up), but simply there are newer Xeon's out there that Apple could easily adopt if it chose to.

 

[pat500000]

If they haven't said anything to indicate they are even still committed to the Mac Pro, do you really think that they will tell you why they haven't produced one yet? Right now, the are busy innovating the story for when they finally make an announcement.

I've seen so much proof that tim is being an idiot.

 

[macs4nw]

I do think Apple will move to all USB-C, even on their dekstop products.
But, I hope Apple leave "classic ports" available one certain models (thus no fuss with mandatory dongles...):
- Mac mini: HDMI and USB
- Mac Pro: (two) Gb or preferably 10Gb ethernet and USB
- iMac: Gb ethernet and USB

No doubt about USB-C being on all new Macs, the only way to get the TB3 connectivity that's so important for power users, on desktop and Pro machines, while for entry-level laptops it has the size advantage (and dongle profits) Apple seeks.

Where room is not a factor such as on desktops (and the Mini and MacPro if and when they come), USB-A, Ethernet, and HDMI will most likely continue to be provided alongside the new USB-C, for the foreseeable future anyway.

 

[richmlow]

@flyinmac,


Your analogy is a bit misleading....

There is quite a bit of difference between a 1986 and a 2017 car, just like there is quite a bit of difference between a 1986 and a 2017 computer. However, there is not much of a difference between a 2013 and 2017 car. In similar fashion, there is not much of a difference between a 2013 (Mac Pro cylinder) and a 2017 computer.


richmlow

If we were talking about cars, then this would be like Honda saying that there's been no significant advancement in automotive technology, so we've decided to stop producing new designs and instead will only sell the 1986 Honda from this day forward.

If we're now in 2017, and you have a choice of buying a brand new Toyota for $20,000 or purchasing a brand new 1986 Honda for $20,000, which choice do you think most buyers would make?

Both cars are brand new. But one has continued to be refined, while the other is 100% unchanged since 1986. Most buyers would choose to buy the more current and refined car if they are going to pay the same price anyway.

 

[ActionableMango]

Every other company seems to be capable of updating their workstations.

 

[pat500000]

You've probably got more chance of going to the moon! Apple don't give anything away.
[doublepost=1490385686][/doublepost]

Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact release number (couldn't be bothered to look it up), but simply there are newer Xeon's out there that Apple could easily adopt if it chose to.

Thats my point.

 

[F1Mac]

Every other company seems to be capable of updating their workstations.

That's what I really don't get. It doesn't get much more absurd than keeping the same specs for years, and keeping the same price at the same time!!!! If the nMP wasn't selling well, why didn't they at least lower the price? That would get more people to buy it, no? ...and maybe even renew interest/popularity? I'm certainly not an economist, but I don't know, that kinda makes sense to me. At this point it's like Apple is making sure people are not going to buy Mac Pros anymore, even if they're still selling them.

 

[hajime]

That's what I really don't get. It doesn't get much more absurd than keeping the same specs for years, and keeping the same price at the same time!!!! If the nMP wasn't selling well, why didn't they at least lower the price? That would get more people to buy it, no? ...and maybe even renew interest/popularity? I'm certainly not an economist, but I don't know, that kinda makes sense to me. At this point it's like Apple is making sure people are not going to buy Mac Pros anymore, even if they're still selling them.

They seem to have been converted into a company that focuses on phones. There are different versions of phones every year.

 

[now i see it]

I would hazard to guess that the Trashcan Pro situation is Apple's greatest boondoggle in the history of Apple. Anyone want to point a finger at who's responsible?

 

[Marx55]

Apple: Mac users don't believe Tim Cook's hype about pro products
Apple has become a phone company, and everything else is a second or third level priority for them. That will continue to work great in terms of profits until enough people dump their Macs and then realize that perhaps they can live without an iPhone too.
http://www.cio.com/article/3175697/...elieve-tim-cooks-hype-about-pro-products.html

Other shocking fact is that Apple charges $3,000 for processor upgrade while Intel charges $2035 for the very same microprocessor. Here are the sources:

Prices from Intel:
Intel Xeon Processor E5-1650 v2
12M Cache, 3.50 GHz
$583.00
http://ark.intel.com/products/75780/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-1650-v2-12M-Cache-3_50-GHz

upgraded to

Intel Xeon Processor E5-2697 v2
30M Cache, 2.70 GHz
$2614.00 - $2618.00
http://ark.intel.com/products/75283/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2697-v2-30M-Cache-2_70-GHz

Prices from Apple for the very same upgrade:
Mac Pro
3.5GHz 6-core with 12MB of L3 cache
16GB (4x4GB) of 1866MHz DDR3 ECC
256GB PCIe-based flash storage
Dual AMD FirePro D500 GPUs with 3GB of GDDR5 VRAM each
3.5GHz 6-core with 12MB of L3 cache

upgraded to

2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache + $3,000.00
http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro?product=MD878LL/A&step=config#
Mac Pro

In summary, Apple charges 56.49% more than the street price. And Apple should get much cheaper price, since it buys millions instead of just one microprocessor. Besides, those above are oficial recommended Intel prices, but street ones are lower (for instance, $2,500 at Amazon instead of $2618):
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Xeon-Processor-BX80635E52697V2-Cache/dp/B00F0R71DM
The same shocking Apple pricing with RAM, SSD, etc, which sometimes are even soldered and cannot be replaced or upgraded. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but this is plain abusive and unfair.

 

[now i see it]

This is was expected when the new CEO took office. The constant mantra: Apple is doomed (as a computer company) is coming to fruition. I don't think anyone wants to contemplate what will become of this company 10 years from now. They may be richer (who cares?) but if the trend of the last 5 years continues, they won't be a computer company anyone wants to deal with any more.

 

[kwikdeth]

Intel haven't even released SkyLake Xeons yet.. I think that's more likely.

that is incorrect. E3-12x0 v5 series are Skylake and have been out since fall 2015. Kaby Lake E3-v6 were just announced in January but I am not sure if they're shipping yet.

[doublepost=1490502020][/doublepost]there will be no purely kaby lake, cannonlake, or skylake mac pro. those are all desktop class (read: imac) processors, in the case of the xeon E3 line, they are the same thing as desktop cpus with ECC memory support added and video disabled in some models. The mac pro has always used workstation-class Xeons either in the E5 or the W/X series 1366 cpus with additional memory channels and PCIe lanes over the regular desktop cpus.

One of two things will happen: Apple will cave and release what is effectively an incremental mac pro update using newer AMD GPUs and E5-v4 CPUs. Or, they'll make pros continue to wait till later this year, or even early next year, when Intel's Purley platform drops. This is the true next-gen chipset and is basically Skylake adapted to the workstation platform - Thunderbolt 3, USB-C, all that good stuff. This will also be in a totally new socket, LGA3647. This is a massive update for the platform and likely well worth the wait (it also has other goodies like 6-channel memory, up from 4 on the current E5s)

pre-release CPUs have been sighted in databases with core counts as high as 32 cores in a single package. Its going to be massive.

the problem is, it has been repeatedly delayed. this is likely more the reason for the mac pro delay than anything else.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
One of two things will happen: Apple will cave and release what is effectively an incremental mac pro update using newer AMD GPUs and E5-v4 CPUs. Or, they'll make pros continue to wait till later this year, or even early next year, when Intel's Purley platform drops. This is the true next-gen chipset and is basically Skylake adapted to the workstation platform - Thunderbolt 3, USB-C, all that good stuff. This will also be in a totally new socket, LGA3647. This is a massive update for the platform and likely well worth the wait (it also has other goodies like 6-channel memory, up from 4 on the current E5s)

The workstation platform due out later this year is Basin Falls ; not Purley. Intel is going to split off the one socket solution from the 2+ socket solution. Purley is the 2+ socket solution. The one socket solution is a 'smaller' 2066 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_2066. So the one and 2+ socket solutions won't be socket compatible anymore. That should mean that the E5 1600 becomes a new product line E4 (?) or the socket indicator (second digit) changes. E5 1700 .

Basin Falls is going to repurpose the mainstream PCH I/O chipset so very likely Apple will go that way since it gives more potential component overlap with iMacs. Purely is going to have stuff like standard dual 10GbE and supercomputer fabric compatibility that isn't coming to workstation land anytime soon.

pre-release CPUs have been sighted in databases with core counts as high as 32 cores in a single package. Its going to be massive.

The switch to separate 1 socket solutions is going to put a cap on max single socket core counts. The folks almost purely chasing core count increases are going to need to go to a solution outside the mainstream of the workatation market.

I suspect Intel planned for increased pricing competition from AMD in the workation market and are decoupling for flexibility (e.g., higher clock ) and probably lower pricing targets in the 10-16 core range. Similarly on the 2+ socket solution Intel is probably aiming at larger multichip interposer module solutions over longer term; so bigger socket.

"... On speaking with Diane Bryant, the 'data center gets new nodes first' is going to be achieved by using multiple small dies on a single package. But rather than use a multi-chip package as in previous multi-core products, Intel will be using EMIB as demonstrated at ISSCC: an MCP/2.5D interposer-like design with an Embedded Multi-Die Interconnect Bridge (EMIB ..."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11115...n-core-on-14nm-data-center-first-to-new-nodes

I doubt this EMIB solution is going to be applied to the workstation solutions any time in the medium range future.

the problem is, it has been repeatedly delayed. this is likely more the reason for the mac pro delay than anything else.

E5 v4 slid ( Broadwell). The E5 v5 ( Skylake) pretty much hasn't. The E5 class products weren't on a 12 month cycle. It was closer to 1.5 years. v4 slid skewed that up but going to smaller dies should help with the 10nm transition. ( just going to have to integrate the multiple dies for the very high core count solutions. )

 

[ActionableMango]

I would hazard to guess that the Trashcan Pro situation is Apple's greatest boondoggle in the history of Apple. Anyone want to point a finger at who's responsible?

Everyone wants to blame Cook and revere Jobs, but the obsession with designs that overheat goes way back into the Jobs days.

Apple's worst computer is the Apple III. Steve insisted on no ventilation slots, and it had a 100% failure rate (i.e. every single computer they shipped, they had to repair). They lost $60 million on that model.

I'm seeing similar parallels with the nMP and its GPU replacement campaign, but obviously its not losing them millions of dollars and requiring a 100% repair rate or they'd stop selling them.

 

[beaker7]

@flyinmac,


Your analogy is a bit misleading....

There is quite a bit of difference between a 1986 and a 2017 car, just like there is quite a bit of difference between a 1986 and a 2017 computer. However, there is not much of a difference between a 2013 and 2017 car. In similar fashion, there is not much of a difference between a 2013 (Mac Pro cylinder) and a 2017 computer.


richmlow

Well, the 2013 is a lot slower, but if that's not a concern then I suppose you're right.

 

[deconstruct60]

This is E3, not E5, v6 (Kaby Lake). Apple isn't waiting on this both because wouldn't use E3 for Mac Pro and because it is here at this point. This launch changes almost nothing about the probable timelines for a Mac Pro. ( a bit of a reinforcement that the iMac is overdue, but nothing much for Mac Pro. )


http://www.anandtech.com/show/11232/intel-launches-xeon-e3-1200-v6-family

This is same chipset as v5 ( Skylake ).
"... With a BIOS update, these C232/C236 motherboards should support the new v6 processors. ..."

For the workstation/server chips it isn't the exact same bundle of capabilities. The Skylake-X ( Skylake-W) bundled chipset will have Optane support when launched later this year.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

Kaby Lake-X with 16 pci-e lanes is going to be a joke.

 

[deconstruct60]

Kaby Lake-X with 16 pci-e lanes is going to be a joke.

In terms of PCI-e bandwidth... yeah not sure who Intel is fooling with stuffing the 1151 die into a package that goes into a 2066 socket. I'm sure there will be single-thread drag racers who will buy it (with the 4 core cap ) because the price is substantially lower and probably have just one GPU card and one SSD.

For a Mac Pro with multiple ( > 2) Thunderbolt sockets and bleeding bandwidth SSD it would suck.

It makes so little sense that I will be surprised if Intel has not tweaked the un-core part of these to add in a better PCI-e subsystem along with a tweak to memory controller. Reuse just the x86 core/cache parts and then tweak the bus share with GPU to this new -X uncore portion.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

In terms of PCI-e bandwidth... yeah not sure who Intel is fooling with stuffing the 1151 die into a package that goes into a 2066 socket. I'm sure there will be single-thread drag racers who will buy it (with the 4 core cap ) because the price is substantially lower and probably have just one GPU card and one SSD.

For a Mac Pro with multiple ( > 2) Thunderbolt sockets and bleeding bandwidth SSD it would suck.

It makes so little sense that I will be surprised if Intel has not tweaked the un-core part of these to add in a better PCI-e subsystem along with a tweak to memory controller. Reuse just the x86 core/cache parts and then tweak the bus share with GPU to this new -X uncore portion.

maybe AMD ZEN will show them the way and have all 2066 cpus use all PCI-E lanes.

 

[deconstruct60]

maybe AMD ZEN will show them the way and have all 2066 cpus use all PCI-E lanes.

Yeah all the 'bigger' socket AMD offerings that will overlap much of the Intel's -X/-W offereing product line up will blow way past Intel's desktop set CPU PCIe limits. But then again Intel gimped the bottom end of the x8xx line up with 24 (instead of 40) lanes. But backsliding all the way back to 16 is ridiculous.