Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 Sales Ban Paused by US Appeals Court

[Terrinb]

How can a US court overrule an ITC decision? If that is possible, any court in any country could do that.

That is completely wrong and is because you don't understand how the process works. The ITC is a US federal agency under the executive branch of government which has the right to issue certain orders on behalf of the federal government. However, the party affected by the ITC order [or any US agency order] has a right to have the order reviewed by a federal court if the party thinks the order is incorrect. Since Apple is challenging the validity of the underlaying patents, it clearly disagrees with the ITC order and as is its right is challenging the order in federal court.

The federal court has the right to overturn the ITC either temporary or permanently.

 

[FlyingDutch]

Based on what?

Based on what is happening for years… patent troll and greedy companies are doing dirty business just to gain money, and the real IP is not really protected

 

[FlyingDutch]

I will sell my AAPL stocks next year.

Their illegal activities have become a disgrace. They should pay for patents like everybody else.

They have become a left-wing company.

Who exactly cares about your shares ?

Then Microsoft should sue Apple and Android for patent infringement since they invented the first modern smartphone OS.

Well, I’m a tech enthusiast and I used Windows Mobile (starting with Windows CE) since its first interaction … I wouldn’t call it “a modern smartphone OS” 😅
it was quite a mess, as UI is involved. As usual Microsoft was very poor in that.
Symbian was better, with all its limitations, but in the end was really Apple to “invent” the first modern smartphone OS.

Two giant mega corps fighting. Why choose a side?

I don’t care about Corps, but I do care about products I like to use. Apple Watch is one of my most important devices in daily life.

 

[Frixos]

How can a US court overrule an ITC decision? If that is possible, any court in any country could do that.

🤦‍♂️

 

[HylianKnight]

Effectively how it works is if a company has enough money, they can intentionally or unintentionally flout patents and if the infringed company chooses to take the infringing company to court, the infringing company can usually outlast them and force a settlement on terms favorable to them.

One of the reasons Apple has so many patents is not to protect them from patent infringement suits from (relatively) small companies like Massimo, but to protect them from patent infringement suits from peer-level companies like Qualcomm, Intel, Samsung, Broadcom, et. al. This level of companies use their patent portfolios like countries use strategic weapons - as a way to enforce peace through mutually assured (legal) destruction.

Excellent description of how patents are used.

 

[flofixer]

The New York Post published an article about how Joe Kiani, CEO of Masimo, is a close friend of Joe Biden's and a campaign mega donor. Raises the question if there was any bias in the ITC ruling.

 

[ronntaylor]

The New York Post published an article about how Joe Kiani, CEO of Masimo, is a close friend of Joe Biden's and a campaign mega donor. Raises the question if there was any bias in the ITC ruling.

Only two ITC product bans have been vetoed in the last 36 years: 1987 by the Reagan Administration & 2013 by the Obama Administration. The latter veto was for a ban based on a Standard Essential Patent wielded by Samsung. In that case Apple had plenty of industry support and it would have had negative outcomes for consumers going forward if the ban had not been vetoed. The US Appeals Court got it right by pausing the current ban until it can be determined if it's in the best interest of consumers and weighing the likelihood of Apple getting Masimo's patent claims squashed and/or working around the claims. Apple is supposedly set to provide a workaround before party pleadings to the Court on January 10th & 15th.

 

[patent10021]

Can anyone explain why this case was only heard after the ban came into effect?

Surely it would have been better before sales were disrupted?

Don't call me Shirley.

 

[diddl14]

As much as I love my Apple products, I’d love even more to see Apple get humbled and knocked back down to reality for a bit.

The 'reality' being? Did you look in detail at the involved technology and the patent claims? This stuff was invented more than 80 years ago. Apple did a stunning job at miniaturizing it so it works on your wrist. You want them to get knocked down for driving innovation and defending themselves again baseless claims?

 

[Born Again]

The extortionists are losing.

Shame on you

Not sure if you guys are still following this thread but great response from the ceo of mosimo.

Apple is hasn’t even reached out across the table- So absurd

 

[gank41]

Great to see the corporate spin. Again, anyone can make a device with a Pulse Oximeter. This isn’t about the sensor. This is about the algorithm used to decipher the data brought in by the sensor. It’s a specific way it’s used, not that it’s used at all.

Also, there’s a LOT being missed in all of this. I don’t trust EITHER of these two CEO’s to tell us the truth 100% here.

He said he’d settle even! Then mentions Sherlocking apps! He’s doing this out of revenge and spite, and said he wants an apology. All while promoting their new baby monitor. Apple has always been private about acquiring other companies for their IP. You’re not going to see Tim Cook on CNBC with his talking points.

He says their patents are about the hardware AND the software, when asked if a software update can fix this. He says “I don’t think that would work, it shouldn’t”.
And AGAIN to note: Masimo doesn’t own the rights to any company that wants to use a Pulse Oximeter. They own the rights to the software used to interpret the data that comes in from the Pulse Oximeter. it’s the actual algorithm itself that works very well that they own. He is saying that Apple has not been good enough with that algorithm and doesn’t think they’ll be able to get there. Then he also mentions in the video that they are able to check with the sensor tens of thousands of times more than Apple is with the Apple Watch. I would love to hear an apple engineer reply to this in a very accurate and scientific way.

 

[Bigkool2inSC]

Bad publicity has bankrupted companies, and drove people to suicide.

Dumb take.

someone got rich when that other someone went bankrupt..
money doesn't disappear, it just exchange hands..

sad but true... death is also revenue..
funeral cost, coffin, catering for the gathering, flowers, hotels for travelers, burial site, legal stuff related to items like homes, cars, bank accounts (just to name a few things).. people are making money after the passing of the person.

again.. sad but true...

 

[Born Again]

Great to see the corporate spin. Again, anyone can make a device with a Pulse Oximeter. This isn’t about the sensor. This is about the algorithm used to decipher the data brought in by the sensor. It’s a specific way it’s used, not that it’s used at all.

Also, there’s a LOT being missed in all of this. I don’t trust EITHER of these two CEO’s to tell us the truth 100% here.

He said he’d settle even! Then mentions Sherlocking apps! He’s doing this out of revenge and spite, and said he wants an apology. All while promoting their new baby monitor. Apple has always been private about acquiring other companies for their IP. You’re not going to see Tim Cook on CNBC with his talking points.

He says their patents are about the hardware AND the software, when asked if a software update can fix this. He says “I don’t think that would work, it shouldn’t”.
And AGAIN to note: Masimo doesn’t own the rights to any company that wants to use a Pulse Oximeter. They own the rights to the software used to interpret the data that comes in from the Pulse Oximeter. it’s the actual algorithm itself that works very well that they own. He is saying that Apple has not been good enough with that algorithm and doesn’t think they’ll be able to get there. Then he also mentions in the video that they are able to check with the sensor tens of thousands of times more than Apple is with the Apple Watch. I would love to hear an apple engineer reply to this in a very accurate and scientific way.

I’m looking forward to hearing apple’s response.

Again this is all quite intriguing. Masimo has the high ground. We know how that ends.

 

[Dark_Omen]

How can a US court overrule an ITC decision? If that is possible, any court in any country could do that.

Not to sound snarky, but each country has their own way a government is ran.

The judicial branch has a lot of discretion to check the decisions made by the executive branch. The executive branch is just a bunch of agencies and the White House that enforce laws... They don't create them or interpret them. Essentially, any action by the executive branch can be overruled by both the judicial and legislative branch, and the executive branch has little-to-no recourse.

It would be like asking how the courts can strike down an executive order, such as one where Biden strips Americans of their Miranda rights. Not only that, but an appellate court can obviously override a lower court's ruling, which is what happened here.

 

[Skyscraperfan]

Not to sound snarky, but each country has their own way a government is ran.

The judicial branch has a lot of discretion to check the decisions made by the executive branch. The executive branch is just a bunch of agencies and the White House that enforce laws... They don't create them or interpret them. Essentially, any action by the executive branch can be overruled by both the judicial and legislative branch, and the executive branch has little-to-no recourse.

It would be like asking how the courts can strike down an executive order, such as one where Biden strips Americans of their Miranda rights. Not only that, but an appellate court can obviously override a lower court's ruling, which is what happened here.

I was not aware that the ITC is an American institution. In the past US courts often thought they had the power to judge over issues outside of US jurisdiction. They even had court cases against foreign countries and their leaders. At the same time they do not accept the International Criminal Court and even threatened to attack it militarily if if would hold a US president captive for example.

This overreach of a judicial system can also be found in other countries though. Especially when it comes to things that happen in the internet. In Austria you can even get into trouble if you are an American and posted something on an American internet platform like Facebook, if that is illegal in Austria. So Austria thinks it has the right to apply its censorship rules to the whole world, just because all that content is accessible from Austria.

I wonder if continuing to sell the Apple Watch is a smart move for Apple now. If it really infringes copyright and that was even confirmed by an American trade commission, it means that Apple intentionally violates the law. In Germany all profits you make from a crime get confiscated. That would be the whole profit margin of hundreds of dollars per watch. Not sure how the rules are in the US, but in the past their were some instances where car manufacturers for example made cars less safe, because that saved them much more money than the lawsuits after heavy accidents.

 

[Dark_Omen]

I was not aware that the ITC is an American institution. In the past US courts often thought they had the power to judge over issues outside of US jurisdiction. They even had court cases against foreign countries and their leaders. At the same time they do not accept the International Criminal Court and even threatened to attack it militarily if if would hold a US president captive for example.

This overreach of a judicial system can also be found in other countries though. Especially when it comes to things that happen in the internet. In Austria you can even get into trouble if you are an American and posted something on an American internet platform like Facebook, if that is illegal in Austria. So Austria thinks it has the right to apply its censorship rules to the whole world, just because all that content is accessible from Austria.

I wonder if continuing to sell the Apple Watch is a smart move for Apple now. If it really infringes copyright and that was even confirmed by an American trade commission, it means that Apple intentionally violates the law. In Germany all profits you make from a crime get confiscated. That would be the whole profit margin of hundreds of dollars per watch. Not sure how the rules are in the US, but in the past their were some instances where car manufacturers for example made cars less safe, because that saved them much more money than the lawsuits after heavy accidents.

Yeah, I would agree that the courts are out of line if it's something outside of U.S Jurisdiction.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

FWIW, I was able to take my Series 6 in this week for battery service out-of-warranty. So if you need service, best strike while the iron is hot!