That's all I'm asking for. Show me the darn test data, how it was tested, and by whom. If there isn't any, tell me so I can draw my own conclusions. "Just trust us" doesn't cut it underwater, sorry.
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Apple Watch Ultra looks like stand alone dive computer. No air integration?
- Thread starter ampm99
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If you walk into a dive shop and they have computers for sale, do you ask for the test data, or do you take it on faith that a company that makes computers tests them to make sure the depth sensors are working and that the algorithm is correct? This is no different. Apple made sure the depth sensor works. They then contracted a company that makes dive computers to make a dive computer app.
Both have been reviewed. And within the known limitations, the AWU has been found to be exactly as accurate as a purpose built computer.
Lest anyone is still in doubt about the complexity of decompression theory, I recommend reading this. It's long, and I need to go through it a couple more times. But on first run through it seems to comport with my understanding of the subject.
en.wikipedia.org
Equally complex, but in different ways, are the human factors, levels of training & fitness, dive type "use cases", weather and sea conditions, u/w terrain & expected currents, planned surface ops (boat, safety diver, safety line), dive equipment, mental & emotional states. They have all been shown to be factors in accidents. No dive computer can address those, it just needs to keep working.
I will tell you, as a former d/m, breaches of the recreational diving limits occur regularly; usually unintentionally and minor in severity, sometimes not. It seems to me that no amount of meticulous planning, pre-dive briefings and post-dive debriefings can prevent this, but you can do your best to minimize it.
Decompression theory - Wikipedia
Equally complex, but in different ways, are the human factors, levels of training & fitness, dive type "use cases", weather and sea conditions, u/w terrain & expected currents, planned surface ops (boat, safety diver, safety line), dive equipment, mental & emotional states. They have all been shown to be factors in accidents. No dive computer can address those, it just needs to keep working.
I will tell you, as a former d/m, breaches of the recreational diving limits occur regularly; usually unintentionally and minor in severity, sometimes not. It seems to me that no amount of meticulous planning, pre-dive briefings and post-dive debriefings can prevent this, but you can do your best to minimize it.
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Reviewed by whom? And accuracy is one factor. Long term reliability is another.
Don't forget there are a ton of different apps on there. Suppose you install a new version of watchOS, or one of the apps. Who's going to guarantee to retest the dive app to ensure the update didn't break it? Comparing the multipurpose watch to a dedicated platform is apples and oranges.
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Oh, I don't know… Maybe because Apple is a 2.5 trillion dollar company, constantly under a public microscope – and the honor system isn't good enough when a software defect would harm not only an important new product, but the company itself – in the process of literally killing their own customers in public? And the executive in charge knows he’ll be fired if the project goes sideways, and it doesn’t look like he did due diligence? And they have enough $$ to do 20 independent checks without it even showing up on a spreadsheet?
Just spitballing here.
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@kimhill - If so, you'd think they'd publicize it. I was immediately reminded of the recent early version B737-MAX problems which directly refute your suppositions above. There were many factors in play, including documentation, training, testing and interface design. I'm just glad they found the problems and fixed them. That was awful for all involved.
As for bugs in watchOS and its supported apps causing unexpected outcomes, you only have to review some of the other, non-dive related, threads in this forum.
Hey of course we all want it to work. I'd love to upgrade my Watch 8 to an Ultra. But don't let that stop you asking the hard questions. The stakes in this use-case could be very high in the event of hardware and/or software failures.
Usually you'd be OK, but add in one or more external problems, including diver error, beyond that and it starts getting complicated. See Prof Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model of accident causation.
I've seen nothing here that gives me any confidence but am open to being convinced by a) hard data and b) no reported failures over a few thousand dives occurring over, say, three years.
As for bugs in watchOS and its supported apps causing unexpected outcomes, you only have to review some of the other, non-dive related, threads in this forum.
Hey of course we all want it to work. I'd love to upgrade my Watch 8 to an Ultra. But don't let that stop you asking the hard questions. The stakes in this use-case could be very high in the event of hardware and/or software failures.
Usually you'd be OK, but add in one or more external problems, including diver error, beyond that and it starts getting complicated. See Prof Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model of accident causation.
I've seen nothing here that gives me any confidence but am open to being convinced by a) hard data and b) no reported failures over a few thousand dives occurring over, say, three years.
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And pre computer, dive tables addressed even less. At least now, the dive's profile is updated in real time.Lest anyone is still in doubt about the complexity of decompression theory, I recommend reading this. It's long, and I need to go through it a couple more times. But on first run through it seems to comport with my understanding of the subject.
Decompression theory - Wikipedia
Equally complex, but in different ways, are the human factors, levels of training & fitness, dive type "use cases", weather and sea conditions, u/w terrain & expected currents, planned surface ops (boat, safety diver, safety line), dive equipment, mental & emotional states. They have all been shown to be factors in accidents. No dive computer can address those, it just needs to keep working.
I will tell you, as a former d/m, breaches of the recreational diving limits occur regularly; usually unintentionally and minor in severity, sometimes not. It seems to me that no amount of meticulous planning, pre-dive briefings and post-dive debriefings can prevent this, but you can do your best to minimize it.
Are limits breached? happens. But a responsible diver will make as sure a possible they don't. I dove a wreck last year. 35m. You can bet I kept a close eye on both depth and NDL at that depth.
There are limitations to the AWU at very close to 40m. If you are a diver that dives close to that all the time, that device is not for you. In the same way I would not use my Leonardo in tec diving. Apple's market is the occasional recreational diver. That majority of divers. I have a 24 dive trip coming in January. I'll let you know how the watch fared.
And you do, right?
In fact I do. I’ve worked directly with Apple as a 3rd-party developer. I’ve spent time with them in Cupertino and gotten to know multiple Apple engineers and marketing people personally. And I’ve worked on Apple-related products for many years.
But you don’t need as much experience as I have to recognize that your claims here have been ridiculous. You clearly have no clue about how Apple functions as a business.
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