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gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
Even if they did, I am not sure they would/could do anything.

Apple can and does.

http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf

And in China you are only allowed to do 36 hours overtime per month? Well, that seems stricter than rules in Britain. Can we talk about inhumane working conditions for computer games developers in the USA?

And a small observation: They found 96 hours overtime in a worker's pay slip. In other words, that worker was _paid_ for 96 hours overtime. In the US games industry, plenty of people work long hours overtime (usually kids thinking they are working in an exiting industry and not realising they are being exploited) without any pay for it.
 

chrono1081

macrumors G3
Jan 26, 2008
8,721
5,194
Isla Nublar
Apple can and does.

http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf

And in China you are only allowed to do 36 hours overtime per month? Well, that seems stricter than rules in Britain. Can we talk about inhumane working conditions for computer games developers in the USA?

And a small observation: They found 96 hours overtime in a worker's pay slip. In other words, that worker was _paid_ for 96 hours overtime. In the US games industry, plenty of people work long hours overtime (usually kids thinking they are working in an exiting industry and not realising they are being exploited) without any pay for it.

Absolutely true. The worst offender (or used to be the worst offender, I'm not sure now) was EA. I remember reading an article where employees would work 96 hours in a week for months around crunch time. Those positions are usually salary based too so no compensation would be given.

I love making games but I couldn't imagine my head working after 96 hour work weeks.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
when you don't grow up and live in the US/Europe, lots of working conditions in different countries and "shocking" and "inhumane".

for many in China (a country that by far have more people than they do jobs) this is a once in a lifetime chance for poverty level men/women to have a fighting chance at obtaining an income stream. is it pretty? no. is it necessary? yes. is it unavoidable? very much so.

Typical response from either a Republican or a fanboy, I'm not sure which. And what income stream? Exactly how much do you think Apple pays these Chinese workers? US minimum wage? Get real. They used to assemble computers in the U.S. a decade ago and the products were better made and relative costs were right in line with today. The only difference now is that Apple is now making record profits (that tends to happen when you use slave labor) and Steve is now one of the richest men on earth. But he cannot afford to pay US factory workers even a poverty-living minimum wage so he moved everything to a Chinese sweat shop (and left prices the same).... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Someone told me how wrong I was to make light of Steve's 'organ' transplant in another thread. IMO, Steve is leading a charmed life considering his greedy self-serving actions and therefore cancer should be the least of his concerns. Those employees that 'threw themselves' out the window in China deserved better than a BS news article making light of their deaths at the hand of greed than Steve getting a little jab for jumping to the front of the transplant line because he's richer than god while others can't afford to just fly off to any state or pay any price to get another chance at life. I'm sure his faithful worshipers on here don't mind, though. All Steve had to do was ask and any number of them would have lined up to donate their organs and die for him so that the Almighty Jobs might live. :eek:

Honestly, this is the kind of crap I used to hate about Bill Gates when he used cutthroat tactics to put Microsoft ahead at any cost (and now that he's retired he thinks donating a couple hundred million out of his dozens of BILLIONS makes it all OK, Rockefeller style, hoping the history books will say what a great man he was for the actions at the end of his life and praise his business sense for the actions in the middle of it). Yes, it's all OK. Do whatever feels good. Don't worry about the lives you affect or destroy. It doesn't matter. Donate a couple of bucks (relative to income) and everyone will forget your evil deeds. There is no God, after all. Right? :eek:

I know Coca cola in the past in its 3rd world factories used its power to improve condistions. Wages at those plants were like 40 a week compared to the average in the country at 20 for the same job. (Basically double the wages) This along with the fact that they were pushing to improve conditions in the factories. I wish Apple would do the same

What? A company that actually tried to improve life instead of take advantage of it? I knew there was a reason I liked Coca-Cola. ;)

Sadly you only have to look at the way Apple responds to ANY competition these days (sue sue sue) to see the way their CEO has his head screwed on. I know people think corporations are only about making money at any cost, but there was a time when pride, morality and patriotism trumped JUST profits. We didn't used to see the amount of lobbying and corporate money pushing for ever weaker laws for the workers quite like we do today (at least before unions stepped in to bring up working conditions and wages). So many out there seem to think unions aren't needed anymore and that the corrupt union official means they should be abolished. But I don't think these people saw or comprehend history and how it tends to repeat itself when the lessons of the past are ignored. It is not right to justify running a sweat shop just because 'everyone else' is also doing it! I'd GLADLY pay more for a 'moral' product than one made on the backs of slaves. The deep South in the U.S. used to cry they could no survive without slaves. Excuse my French, but BULLCRAP! Greed does not justify immorality. EVER.

You know, I just finished watching the Gen1 Transformers cartoons (never did get to see the 3rd season when I was a kid) and just look at the morals that show tried to instill in most of the episodes...good versus evil. The upright way to do things and the cheap and easy dirty way. Being good often means self-sacrifice to ensure no harm is done to others or good is done to help them. I've never heard one good argument for greed yet. They all scream self-serving BS at the expense of others. "I risked so much to get my business and now I DESERVE to be rich. I deserve to pay myself millions now while barely giving minimum wage (and I want to see that law changed! They don't deserve even that much!) to my workers that do all the labor. Let others do the same!" Blah Blah Blah.

Yes, we'll see how much good that money does them in the end and see if there's any difference between being a compassionate and generous business owner or a leech on the buttocks of society. :eek:
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Sadly you only have to look at the way Apple responds to ANY competition these days (sue sue sue) to see the way their CEO has his head screwed on.

Release great products, pioneer new markets, then protect their IP.

Sounds pretty standard. Perhaps the reason Apple sues is because they tend to be first to market with a lot of hot products, then the "competition" craps something half-baked out *afterward* that looks and feels pretty suspicious.

Who the f cares who Apple sues. Really. Let Apple and the defendant and the courts figure it out. Just keep making more iPads and other great products. That's all that really interests me as a consumer (and other consumers.) The market doesn't care about Apple's court battles. The market DOES care about new iPads.

So let Apple sue. When the competition comes out with something that isn't junk maybe I'll care.

Business is business. It's about making a profit, lawfully. It's not about morals. Apple gear is inherently *amoral.* Tech is amoral. You seem to be taking it quite personally.

As for working conditions in China, Apple can only do so much. Forward your grievances to the responsible party: China.
 

Legion93

macrumors 6502a
Apr 6, 2011
545
0
Death Star, Rishi Maze
And china needs to stop dumping unnecessary nuclear waste into the atmosphere. Only a third of the 340 Chinese cities that are monitored meet China's own pollution standards. They need to get off the roads and drive bicycles.
 

mrsir2009

macrumors 604
Sep 17, 2009
7,505
156
Melbourne, Australia
Release great products, pioneer new markets, then protect their IP.

Sounds pretty standard. Perhaps the reason Apple sues is because they tend to be first to market with a lot of hot products, then the "competition" craps something half-baked out *afterward* that looks and feels pretty suspicious.

Who the f cares who Apple sues. Really. Let Apple and the defendant and the courts figure it out. Just keep making more iPads and other great products. That's all that really interests me as a consumer (and other consumers.) The market doesn't care about Apple's court battles. The market DOES care about new iPads.

So let Apple sue. When the competition comes out with something that isn't junk maybe I'll care.

Business is business. It's about making a profit, lawfully. It's not about morals. Apple gear is inherently *amoral.* Tech is amoral. You seem to be taking it quite personally.

As for working conditions in China, Apple can only do so much. Forward your grievances to the responsible party: China.

Hold on... A lot of the stuff other companies pump out are half baked knock offs, but certainly not all of it. If you actually look there are cellphones out there that are better than the iPhone 4 and for cheaper prices.
 

benzslrpee

macrumors 6502
Jan 1, 2007
406
26
i'm neither Republican or a fanboy. i lived between Taipei and Singapore from grades 3-9. i currently attend a university that has a +20% Asian student enrollment. in my finance courses, that rate increases to over 35% with about 70% of those being international students.

i've spent 5 summers going through Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Cheng Du, Chong Qin, Su Chow, Hang Chow, Yangzte River and some other small villages along it where children as young as 5 work in souvenir shops from 7am - 9pm because that is their income stream.

a $10 USD budget can last you week in these villages where as in Beijing, it'll last you an hour. the average $/sqft in Beijing/Shanghai is comparable to that in NYC but the average income of people working in Beijing is 7x lower. in fact, on average, most college grads in China can not afford their own apartment upon graduating and working their first job. many of these kids end up living at home with their parents for about 5-7 years.

as an emerging country that's just beginning to develop their capital markets, trying to figure out whether to peg or float the RMB, how to tame the overheated inflation growth, making a conscious effort to stabilize real asset prices etc etc etc... wages are low because of economic conditions.

it always sounds attractive to criticize Foxconn for low pay. like i mentioned before, it's low to us but many of them make do with their pay because their cost of living is also significantly lower. it is impossible (ok, possible but not prudent) for their government to implement a $5k increase just because it makes The Guardian feel better about themselves. consider what that would mean for the RMB value, pricing of goods, the huge savings depository sitting in 4 main banks, the even larger amount of loan portfolios outstanding, asset prices, economic repercussion... the list can go on forever.

this is, as someone mentioned above, completely normal for a country that is growing into a primarily export and manufacturing dominated economy. it's not a sexy, multibillion, white collar business like engineering Goldman's CDSs on CMBSs, consulting for McK at SwissAir or creating Symbian phones for Nokia. it's a no *****, i got to compete with +200k people for 30-50 positions at Foxconn/P&G/GM/Pepsi/etc where i'll at least have money to send home to my parents. students hired into P&G China's Sales and Marketing do 70 hour weeks with pitiful pay. i've heard life at Pepsi is even more hardcore. the rich can send their kids straight into CIC, Baidu or something similar. the rest will climb over each other backs to secure a position at some firm because everyone has to start somewhere and only a few make it.

so like i stated in the beginning, for those of us who have the privilege of growing up in the US, going to a university and come out with a 50k/yr job... it really is difficult to wrap your head around working in a BRIC environment.

but it could just be me...


Typical response from either a Republican or a fanboy, I'm not sure which. And what income stream? Exactly how much do you think Apple pays these Chinese workers? US minimum wage? Get real. They used to assemble computers in the U.S. a decade ago and the products were better made and relative costs were right in line with today. The only difference now is that Apple is now making record profits (that tends to happen when you use slave labor) and Steve is now one of the richest men on earth. But he cannot afford to pay US factory workers even a poverty-living minimum wage so he moved everything to a Chinese sweat shop (and left prices the same).... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
...
 
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Consultant

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,314
36
Here's how google treat its works.

Google made some secret workers (most people of color) start their shift at 4AM so other google employees have minimal chance of seeing them. And this happens in California

http://gizmodo.com/#!5797022/googles-secret-class-system

Well is anyone here going to stop buying Apple products because of this? If not, then nothing is going to change - Why would it need to?

Almost all electronics are made in china, and over 50% are made by foxconn.

To the clueless people, good luck stop buying electronics. Maybe you want to sell all your electronics. :rolleyes:
 
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SkyStudios

macrumors member
Mar 11, 2011
87
0
Based in Chicago
Some observations:
I'm not making excuses, but 3rd world country standards are not ours. Income is income where there was none before. However our standards are our standards. Do we want to live in a feudal society with poor who just scrape by overseen by Lords and Ladies? Something to ponder. :)

Now think about those big profits Apple and all corporation who use 3rd world labor get to enjoy! :rolleyes:

Finally, regarding a manufacturing work environment, the Republican's are working hard to turn this country into another China.

The US does not support those standards and they are human violations involved if they take advantage of this in other developing countries.

Since the world bank many developing countries where promised things but then turned out to be means of coups even a indo Asian president was stripped naked and us soldiers took hhis photos to say next time you run and get in our way we will do worse, then they put a guy in office they picked a who agreed to standards as low as one dollar a day working in factories fro ikea, this is pure human violations, apple was aware of it and has to pay the fines just like they do with privacy violations.

While I use their products this does not mean I don't know they Re doomed, hope they clean this up and also stay out of politics.
 

SkyStudios

macrumors member
Mar 11, 2011
87
0
Based in Chicago
i'm neither Republican or a fanboy.
.

but it could just be me...

Not everyone is racists so yes its just you,

why don't you go work their yourself and live like them if you think its ok a company from a already developed country can send work outside and exploit others for profit,

on one hand you have a opinion that your helping these and other people left in war strikken countries, people, alike the ones digging for diamnonds with guns to their heads, same diamond sold in belgium,

Example, Spain is way more free the the USA, Better whether and cost of living is lower, you eat mpre for less, while jobless issus rise they go to the beach and live it up like italians, why, becuase they dont all need ipads to buy, but tjats not enough you see, to exPnd the economy aome take it to the extreme with their psychopathic anti social mental disorders, if you ask a brit from manchester who has to start his car hours before going work to warm it up in freezing weather what his state of mind is in if one left him in a laid back Spanish village he will claim its a 3rd world country, while yet his crappy miserBle life is what he prefers to use as a example of evolution, racists are so ignorant and lie in complete denial of their failures in life don't they lol
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
Who the f cares who Apple sues. Really. Let Apple and the defendant and the courts figure it out. Just keep making more iPads and other great products. That's all that really interests me as a consumer (and other consumers.) The market doesn't care about Apple's court battles. The market DOES care about new iPads.

It sounds like the 'market' is a pretty sad immoral entity without conscience a burning desire for material goods. Yes, that sounds like the 'world' I read about in various religious texts. The point of most religions is remove yourself from the 'world' and achieve enlightenment (whether Buddhism or Christianity, their true (not distorted by evangelists looking for a payout) goal is to rise above materialism and realize there's more to the Universe than Big Macs and iPads.

Technology isn't evil, but many of the companies and the people running those countries are neck deep in greed at any cost. Disassociating morality from 'business' (as in "It's just business") seems to be the modern direction of this 'world' view, as if making money has no consequences and that people don't matter at all from a business standpoint. It's this "who gives a crap" mentality that makes the world so unpleasant and stressful despite modern conveniences. Instead of technology making the world better/easier, it simply demands more productivity at a rate exceeding many of those conveniences. Instead of working together to make the world a better place, we 'compete' against each other to make everyone miserable. It's great. :rolleyes:

Business is business. It's about making a profit, lawfully. It's not about morals. Apple gear is inherently *amoral.* Tech is amoral. You seem to be taking it quite personally.

So you agree with me. It's just business. The only difference between you and me is that I have a conscience and actually care about others around me.

As for working conditions in China, Apple can only do so much. Forward your grievances to the responsible party: China.

Do so much? Apple did enough when they fired all their U.S. manufacturer workers and moved their business to China just to make more profit. People didn't matter. They're just numbers. It's just business.... :rolleyes:
 

SkyStudios

macrumors member
Mar 11, 2011
87
0
Based in Chicago
It sounds like the 'market' is a pretty sad immoral entity without conscience a burning desire for material goods. Yes, that sounds like the 'world' I read about in various religious texts. The point of most religions is remove yourself from the 'world' and achieve enlightenment (whether Buddhism or Christianity, their true (not distorted by evangelists looking for a payout) goal is to rise above materialism and realize there's more to the Universe than Big Macs and iPads.

Technology isn't evil, but many of the companies and the people running those countries are neck deep in greed at any cost. . :rolleyes:



So you agree with me. It's just business. The only difference between you and me is that I have a conscience and actually care about others around me.



Do so much? Apple did enough when they fired all their U.S. manufacturer workers and moved their business to China just to make more profit. People didn't matter. They're just numbers. It's just business.... :rolleyes:

China has better living standards then you think, it's not like Indonesia where some companies with the world bank took over with coups,

I'm not a nazi, I doubt you are as well, I don't put technology before fellow citizens, I worked with some of the best techs the US ever had serve in the air force and communications, most got jobs in TV, purely techs not nazis, but nazis are blinded by technology and racial fantasies that it will solve life's problems.

Today Germans and Japanese still think like these inbred morons who still don't get it that if everyone had the same blood they would be retarded, literally, try having kids with you mom or sister, I certainly refuse to be one of them.

So realistically, while we all love technology I'm not willing to stand down if apple committed wrong doing, my macs don't mean I support it, I wondered last week with apple violating privacy laws if whether or not they went corrupt, so instead of saying apple is right and let them go above the law, federal that is i took the plunge and decided to look into it rather then indulging in a selfish way and put technology first, as a person I think people should put their happiness first so anyone who thinks a iPad brings salvation is surely a loser, no surprise if a loser says they don't mind if apple spies on their device, well sorry I and other artists or public figures i work with along with many companies and congress do, we all want to see apple fix this and make a good example don't you. Taking the money while it's hot when hyperinflation is around the corner and banks will limit withdrawals sounds like a dead end.


Btw all new technology has go through US military intelligence department before the public to see if it's possible of been used as a weapon, so I doubt they did not know this was going on., why does not the us military not monitor our companies over seas, they only seem to protect oil pipe lines because we sell it in dollars
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
It sounds like the 'market' is a pretty sad immoral entity without conscience a burning desire for material goods. Yes, that sounds like the 'world' I read about in various religious texts. The point of most religions is remove yourself from the 'world' and achieve enlightenment (whether Buddhism or Christianity, their true (not distorted by evangelists looking for a payout) goal is to rise above materialism and realize there's more to the Universe than Big Macs and iPads.

Technology isn't evil, but many of the companies and the people running those countries are neck deep in greed at any cost. Disassociating morality from 'business' (as in "It's just business") seems to be the modern direction of this 'world' view, as if making money has no consequences and that people don't matter at all from a business standpoint. It's this "who gives a crap" mentality that makes the world so unpleasant and stressful despite modern conveniences. Instead of technology making the world better/easier, it simply demands more productivity at a rate exceeding many of those conveniences. Instead of working together to make the world a better place, we 'compete' against each other to make everyone miserable. It's great. :rolleyes:



So you agree with me. It's just business. The only difference between you and me is that I have a conscience and actually care about others around me.



Do so much? Apple did enough when they fired all their U.S. manufacturer workers and moved their business to China just to make more profit. People didn't matter. They're just numbers. It's just business.... :rolleyes:


From your sig:

(Made in China)
15" Matte MBP 2.4GHz, 4GB/500GB, NVidia 8600M GT; 2 ATV; iPod-T16
PowerMac 1.8GHz G4 1.5GB/2x1.5TB, ATI 9800 Pro (I believe the display was manufactured in Shanghai)
PC XP/Linux,5600+, 2GB/1TB,7900GS (Nvidia card, made in China)
Dell Mini 10V (Running OSX) (Made in Taiwan, better . . . but I believe the batteries come from China.)

Why don't you buy more Apple gear to show how much you care?
 
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SkyStudios

macrumors member
Mar 11, 2011
87
0
Based in Chicago
From your sig:

(Made in China)
15" Matte MBP 2.4GHz, 4GB/500GB, NVidia 8600M GT; 2 ATV; iPod-T16
PowerMac 1.8GHz G4 1.5GB/2x1.5TB, ATI 9800 Pro (I believe the display was manufactured in Shanghai)
PC XP/Linux,5600+, 2GB/1TB,7900GS (Nvidia card, made in China)
Dell Mini 10V (Running OSX) (Made in Taiwan, better . . . but I believe the batteries come from China.)

Why don't you by more Apple gear to show haw much you care?

We all have products from Asian developers, iPads are basically. Assembled with parts from Asia, go visit Tokyo and I'm sure you will return with something that will not be sold in the USA for at least 4 to 7 years yet.


This is also new news that apple joined the slave labor market with the world banks and started off shore companies to engage in profiting from sweat shops, they say apple was fully aware of it, until today their users where not, so give them time now that they have toooo many reasons to boy-cot their products and get the next best tablet to be, maybe china should crack down on companies who violate human rights themselves but they care less I bet, either way it does not mean I or you don't have to, I have just as much respect for you as I do a Chinese person, why would I wish this on you., it would of been nicer if apple paid them better at least, they obviously. Made billions, greed destroyed them now

Btw developers and others may boycott working with apple products too which may hurt apple big time abroad, Sweden has been vulgar about how ikea and other companies indulge in 400 plus percent profits from sweat shops, this does not do good for those countries as The world bank claims, it brings down the standards if anything
 
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MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
From your sig:

(Made in China)
15" Matte MBP 2.4GHz, 4GB/500GB, NVidia 8600M GT; 2 ATV; iPod-T16
PowerMac 1.8GHz G4 1.5GB/2x1.5TB, ATI 9800 Pro (I believe the display was manufactured in Shanghai)
PC XP/Linux,5600+, 2GB/1TB,7900GS (Nvidia card, made in China)
Dell Mini 10V (Running OSX) (Made in Taiwan, better . . . but I believe the batteries come from China.)

Why don't you buy more Apple gear to show how much you care?

If I could buy U.S., I would. I'd vote for a trade embargo against China right now if it were up for a vote (given their nuclear armed Communist status, I think it's absurd we embargo piddly Cuba, but not China; think about it!). I don't care if it would delay products. Those jobs would have to go elsewhere. I'd certainly vote for a 'fair' tariff (equal to the difference in costs) on US companies that ship jobs overseas to save personnel costs and then ship said products right back to America. That would discourage them from taking the jobs out of country in the first place.

BTW, the New Balance tennis shoes I have on right now are Made In The USA (not many wearing such shoes can say that these days).
 
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