Apple's First 5G Chip for iPhones Reportedly Won't Support mmWave

[15C Driver]

I

It’s only for the time being. The world will get mmWave also in time

I am not too worried about mmWave, but more concerned about performance vs. the Qualcomm option. We all saw how well the Intel v. Qualcomm modem worked out and Apple throttling the qcom devices to make teh intc ones look comparable

 

[Adora]

I don't want to have mmWave near to my body. Like I don't want to get into µmWave oven.

 

[CraigJDuffy]

It’s only for the time being. The world will get mmWave also in time

Absolutely, and by that point Apple will have managed to implement it with their own chip I’m sure.

 

[lkrupp]

When is Apple going to put a cellular chip in a MacBook? This seems like a no brainer and yet it never happens. Sick of WiFi access points and hot spots. 🤬

Of course then you’d have to have yet another cellular account and pay dearly for it. Using your iPhone’s hotspot is vastly more cost effective. So is WiFi.

 

[15C Driver]

Thinking the iPhone 17 Series will be the last version of Qualcomm iPhones.

Apple’s custom 5G modem will bring better battery 🔋 life and less thermal heat inside there iPhones.

Maybe by Gen 3 or 4 or when they finally (possibly do) a SoC, but I'd bet that gen 1 will be pretty inferior to the QCOM silicon. I guess they have had 6 years to try get this going.

 

[cdsapplefan]

I think that is the plan but it is the implementation that is worrisome. I don’t want to spend several hundreds of dollars on mobile phone with a v1.0.0 key component. I wish Apple the best of luck but I will stand aside and allow others to be the first adopters.

Hopefully 🤞 Apple fixed the dropped call issue people had with the Intel modems.

I had the Intel Modem iPhone and the data speeds were fast and coverage good in large metro areas with 5 cellular bars, but when you went down to 1-2 cellular bars then the Intel iPhone would experience dead spots and the internet would not work at all which was very annoying.

 

[Wizec]

Apple needs to get ahead of Qualcomm defining the next generation of WiFi/cellular radios.. it’s Qualcomms patent edge that Apple isn’t going to ever get this off the ground. Apple is talented. But Intel is smart also and saw the same writing on the wall. Apple really has to get innovative on defining the next cellular standards. I don’t think they got it inside them. That is why Steve Jobs said F it let the networks and cellular providers handle it.

It’s Broadcom that supplies WiFi chips to Apple.

 

[cdsapplefan]

Maybe by Gen 3 or 4 or when they finally (possibly do) a SoC, but I'd bet that gen 1 will be pretty inferior to the QCOM silicon. I guess they have had 6 years to try get this going.

I’m betting it will be some kind of battery 🔋 benefit even with the 1st generation custom modem.

I just hope Apple fixed the performance issues with the Intel modems like the dropped calls and the dead spot no internet data problems.

 

[bviktor]

In other words, it'll be utterly pointless.

 

[ph001bi]

Apple is rumored to have been working on its own 5G modem for iPhones since 2018, but the first version of the chip might lack mmWave support.

Taiwanese industry publication DigiTimes today reported that Apple's in-house 5G modem has yet to incorporate mmWave technology. Until that changes, Apple will likely continue to rely on its existing 5G chip supplier Qualcomm for iPhone models that support mmWave, including U.S. models of all iPhone 12 models and newer.

Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo in July said two iPhone models with an Apple-designed 5G modem will be released in 2025, including a new iPhone SE in the first quarter of the year and an ultra-thin iPhone 17 model in the third quarter. As a lower-priced device, it would make sense for the next iPhone SE to lack mmWave support, and it might also be a necessary compromise in order for the ultra-thin iPhone 17 to achieve a slimmer design.

mmWave is a set of 5G frequencies that promise ultra-fast speeds at short distances, which is ideal for dense urban areas. By comparison, sub-6GHz 5G is generally slower than mmWave, but the signals travel further, better serving suburban and rural areas. sub-6GHz networks are still more common than mmWave networks in many countries.

All existing iPhones that are currently sold by Apple are equipped with Qualcomm modems for cellular connectivity, but Kuo expects Apple to transition away from Qualcomm over time. Earlier this year, Apple extended its 5G modem supply agreement with Qualcomm for iPhone launches through 2026, so Apple still has plenty of time.

In 2019, Apple acquired the majority of Intel's smartphone modem business, as part of its efforts to design its own 5G chip. It is unclear if Apple's chip would have any consumer benefits over Qualcomm's modems, but it would reduce Apple's reliance on an external supplier. In 2017, Apple sued Qualcomm over alleged anticompetitive practices and $1 billion in unpaid royalty rebates. The two companies settled the lawsuit in 2019.

Article Link: Apple's First 5G Chip for iPhones Reportedly Won't Support mmWave

Digitimes ? mmWave confirmed.

 

[cdsapplefan]

Apple needs to get ahead of Qualcomm defining the next generation of WiFi/cellular radios.. it’s Qualcomms patent edge that Apple isn’t going to ever get this off the ground. Apple is talented. But Intel is smart also and saw the same writing on the wall. Apple really has to get innovative on defining the next cellular standards. I don’t think they got it inside them. That is why Steve Jobs said F it let the networks and cellular providers handle it.

Steve Jobs initially wanted a all WiFi network for his iPhone lineup but at the time it was deemed infeasible and too expensive and too many government spectrum regulations to get over.

 

[Glideslope]

Great, so once again because Apple is stubborn about doing business with Qualcomm, we're going to get an inferior cellular chipset in our phones.

Damnit, just work with Qualcomm. They're the best at what they do. There's no need to bring everything in-house.

I'm so glad I got at 15 Pro Max last year, so I can have a good Qualcomm modem for the next few years. Hopefully by the time I have to upgrade, whatever Apple is using has the bugs worked out.

Precisely why I replaced my 13PM with a 16PM. No interest in being a Apple Modem Beta Tester.

Full Disclosure: The 13PM was also the last device looking for a Lightning Connection. 😉

 

[chadua]

When does the “average” consumer really need 900mbps download on cellular? I switched carriers 6 months or so ago and have access to mmWave in certain areas, and yes, my 13PM has been seeing 700mbps download, but its not needed for the typical social media user

It's also for capacity in crowded areas.

 

[arc of the universe]

if mm wave 5G is ever rolled out in a comprehensive, wide area way, it will be around 2030.
nobody is rushing towards that. nowhere in the world.

i actually think where it might have the most practical application is transmitters installed along roads that are purposely rebuilt to handle autonomous driving cars.

 

[EricOSU]

Steve Jobs is going to throat punch Tim Cook the next time he sees him. Hell he might come back as a ghost just to do it. Apple went from an innovative company to trailing behind on everything. I know mmWave is only really a US based service why not have it in the first chops.

 

[ZZ9pluralZalpha]

Several users here claiming that T-mobile has mmWave all over the place… and here’s me, living in what is alleged to be one of T-mobile’s fastest-service cities, having to regularly wave my latest-gen phone over my head like it’s the ’90s just to get dialup speeds

 

[svish]

Will not be a huge issue due to lack of mmWave support. Waiting for Apple to bring cellular connectivity to MacBooks.

 

[obviouslogic]

why not start off offering them in macs? Lower volume and nobody is going to freak out about mmwave.

Honestly, I think this is the main reason Apple is developing their own modems, at least at first; for Macs and iPads, not iPhones.

 

[laptech]

Apple is on a loss here because they already tried to using another competitors modem (Intel) and if memory serves me right it did not go very well because users were complaining of bad signaling and dropped phone connections. Apple went back to Qualcomm. Apple then bought Intel's modem business so Apple could stop it's dependency with Qualcomm. Initial trials of Apple's first run of modem chips did not go down very well because they did not perform to the specifications Apple required. Apple also faced lawsuits from Qualcomm because some of the technology in the modem chips was taken from Qualcomm. Qualcomm won resulting in Apple going back to Qualcomm.

Apple trying to go it alone to make their own modem chips will never work unless they license a number of patents from Qualcomm that will give the modem chip the performance Apple has been looking for. We know it's down to patents because this early this year Apple went back to court to try and get 2-3 of Qualcomm's modem patents ruled null and void but that did not work either.

Apple only have three choices when it comes to their modems 1) Make inferior modems using the patents Apple now owns when they purchased Intel's modem business. 2) License the required patents from Qualcomm so Apple can make good quality modem chips or 3) Continue buying modem chips from Qualcomm.

 

[Biro]

Apple only have three choices when it comes to their modems 1) Make inferior modems using the patents Apple now owns when they purchased Intel's modem business. 2) License the required patents from Qualcomm so Apple can make good quality modem chips or 3) Continue buying modem chips from Qualcomm.

These three choices are true only if there is no other way to make a modem work other than the Qualcomm way. Now, I’m not saying it’s likely, but is possible that Apple can make some kind of technological breakthrough. I’m not surprised that Intel couldn’t find a way - look at how far Intel fell behind in other areas - but I figure if Apple spends enough time and effort on the modem project, it could find a way around Qualcomm.

 

[laptech]

These three choices are true only if there is no other way to make a modem work other than the Qualcomm way. Now, I’m not saying it’s likely, but is possible that Apple can make some kind of technological breakthrough. I’m not surprised that Intel couldn’t find a way - look at how far Intel fell behind in other areas - but I figure if Apple spends enough time and effort on the modem project, it could find a way around Qualcomm.

There is no other options than the 3 I gave. There is never going to be a breakthrough because one of the patents that Qualcomm hold is to do with the core basic of a chip modem. Intel already tried a different way but it did not work because it did not meet the strict operational specifications that Apple demands. That is why Apple tried to get two of Qualcomm's patent's thrown out. MR already reported on the issue sometime back that Apple's problem in making a good modem comes down to the core basics of a modem and that is where Apple is stumped because Qualcomm own the patent that gives modems the operational specifications that Apple wants for it's iphones.

With the purchase of Intel's complete modem business, Apple has within it's power to design and manufacture their own modem chip BUT they need to license one or two of Qualcomm's patents to to get the operational specifications to do it but Apple are being extremely stubborn about it and are refusing to pay Qualcomm so they can use their patents.

This issue with Qualcomm has been going on for more than 10 years and in that time Apple has tried everything to get the patents they need tossed out. So unless Apple comes up with a completely new communications method that no one has thought of before, Apple are stuck with Qualcomm OR Apple lowers it operational specifications for the modem which would then allow them to use their own ex Intel inspired modem.

If Apple want the best for it's iphone, there is only one when it comes to mobile phone modems and that is Qualcomm.

 

[15C Driver]

There is no other options than the 3 I gave. There is never going to be a breakthrough because one of the patents that Qualcomm hold is to do with the core basic of a chip modem. Intel already tried a different way but it did not work because it did not meet the strict operational specifications that Apple demands. That is why Apple tried to get two of Qualcomm's patent's thrown out. MR already reported on the issue sometime back that Apple's problem in making a good modem comes down to the core basics of a modem and that is where Apple is stumped because Qualcomm own the patent that gives modems the operational specifications that Apple wants for it's iphones.

With the purchase of Intel's complete modem business, Apple has within it's power to design and manufacture their own modem chip BUT they need to license one or two of Qualcomm's patents to to get the operational specifications to do it but Apple are being extremely stubborn about it and are refusing to pay Qualcomm so they can use their patents.

This issue with Qualcomm has been going on for more than 10 years and in that time Apple has tried everything to get the patents they need tossed out. So unless Apple comes up with a completely new communications method that no one has thought of before, Apple are stuck with Qualcomm OR Apple lowers it operational specifications for the modem which would then allow them to use their own ex Intel inspired modem.

If Apple want the best for it's iphone, there is only one when it comes to mobile phone modems and that is Qualcomm.

Agree, I always laugh when many on here bash Qualcomm endlessly. Qualcomm took a bet on CDMA way back when and their (and many others) leadership in this area has allowed all of us to cary around these amazing devices (apple or android) that do so much. Without the 2G/3G/4G/5G tech that they created and continue to develop, there wouldn't be an iPhone.

The bigger issue (IMO) is that Qualcomm enables many other players through their SoC that they sell to both small and large android players (AKA competition). Now, Qualcomm is getting in the PC market, and the reviews thus far are pretty solid (not good on games yet) - more competition for Apple.

I lost any respect left for Tim Apple when he outright lied in his statement that Qualcomm was charging them based on the entire value of the phones. It's long been known that Qualcomm had caps, and it was rumored that Apple had a sweet royalty rate (which was confirmed later)- we now know they are paying ~$7-10 per phone in royalty. They are paying for the modem, but they also pay for screens, batteries, etc. We all expect the best in these areas- I am not sure why some don't want the best modem too.

If Apple can make a competitive modem, awesome. Good for all involved if they push Qualcomm harder too. I really doubt they are going to sell to the broader market, but if they can make a modem that performs well QCOM will need to keep up.

Ideally, AAPL and QCOM could both be leaders in their respective fields. Whether they work together or not is up to them

 

[cdsapplefan]

Agree, I always laugh when many on here bash Qualcomm endlessly. Qualcomm took a bet on CDMA way back when and their (and many others) leadership in this area has allowed all of us to cary around these amazing devices (apple or android) that do so much. Without the 2G/3G/4G/5G tech that they created and continue to develop, there wouldn't be an iPhone.

The bigger issue (IMO) is that Qualcomm enables many other players through their SoC that they sell to both small and large android players (AKA competition). Now, Qualcomm is getting in the PC market, and the reviews thus far are pretty solid (not good on games yet) - more competition for Apple.

I lost any respect left for Tim Apple when he outright lied in his statement that Qualcomm was charging them based on the entire value of the phones. It's long been known that Qualcomm had caps, and it was rumored that Apple had a sweet royalty rate (which was confirmed later)- we now know they are paying ~$7-10 per phone in royalty. They are paying for the modem, but they also pay for screens, batteries, etc. We all expect the best in these areas- I am not sure why some don't want the best modem too.

If Apple can make a competitive modem, awesome. Good for all involved if they push Qualcomm harder too. I really doubt they are going to sell to the broader market, but if they can make a modem that performs well QCOM will need to keep up.

Ideally, AAPL and QCOM could both be leaders in their respective fields. Whether they work together or not is up to them

I think you are mad that Apple is finally saying goodbye 👋 to Qualcomm. Ming Chin Kuo stated that Apple’s custom 5G modem is ready for high volume production with 100 million plus units.

With Apple’s cash 💰 reserve and them poach hiring all of Qualcomm’s employees and hiring the president/ceo of Qualcomm, I would not be surprised if they found some kind of breakthrough.

We will find out next March 2025, what this custom modem is all about.

 

[cdsapplefan]

There is no other options than the 3 I gave. There is never going to be a breakthrough because one of the patents that Qualcomm hold is to do with the core basic of a chip modem. Intel already tried a different way but it did not work because it did not meet the strict operational specifications that Apple demands. That is why Apple tried to get two of Qualcomm's patent's thrown out. MR already reported on the issue sometime back that Apple's problem in making a good modem comes down to the core basics of a modem and that is where Apple is stumped because Qualcomm own the patent that gives modems the operational specifications that Apple wants for it's iphones.

With the purchase of Intel's complete modem business, Apple has within it's power to design and manufacture their own modem chip BUT they need to license one or two of Qualcomm's patents to to get the operational specifications to do it but Apple are being extremely stubborn about it and are refusing to pay Qualcomm so they can use their patents.

This issue with Qualcomm has been going on for more than 10 years and in that time Apple has tried everything to get the patents they need tossed out. So unless Apple comes up with a completely new communications method that no one has thought of before, Apple are stuck with Qualcomm OR Apple lowers it operational specifications for the modem which would then allow them to use their own ex Intel inspired modem.

If Apple want the best for it's iphone, there is only one when it comes to mobile phone modems and that is Qualcomm

Apple can just buy Qualcomm. It would be pennies 🪙 to them

 

[cdsapplefan]

Agree, I always laugh when many on here bash Qualcomm endlessly. Qualcomm took a bet on CDMA way back when and their (and many others) leadership in this area has allowed all of us to cary around these amazing devices (apple or android) that do so much. Without the 2G/3G/4G/5G tech that they created and continue to develop, there wouldn't be an iPhone.

The bigger issue (IMO) is that Qualcomm enables many other players through their SoC that they sell to both small and large android players (AKA competition). Now, Qualcomm is getting in the PC market, and the reviews thus far are pretty solid (not good on games yet) - more competition for Apple.

I lost any respect left for Tim Apple when he outright lied in his statement that Qualcomm was charging them based on the entire value of the phones. It's long been known that Qualcomm had caps, and it was rumored that Apple had a sweet royalty rate (which was confirmed later)- we now know they are paying ~$7-10 per phone in royalty. They are paying for the modem, but they also pay for screens, batteries, etc. We all expect the best in these areas- I am not sure why some don't want the best modem too.

If Apple can make a competitive modem, awesome. Good for all involved if they push Qualcomm harder too. I really doubt they are going to sell to the broader market, but if they can make a modem that performs well QCOM will need to keep up.

Ideally, AAPL and QCOM could both be leaders in their respective fields. Whether they work together or not is up to them

Qualcomm will not be able to hold 6G hostage as Apple and other companies have teamed up to make sure this monopoly doesn’t happen again.

Apple just needs to buy Qualcomm and be done with it, or the Government just needs to let them do it.