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Apple's Research on Tactile Feedback for Touchscreen Keyboard Revisited
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I was'nt aware of the fixed bumps over the home row of keys. I remember very well the days of Fingerworks when they were in business and a good friend of mine was very lucky to have one of those touch keyboards, before Apple acquired them. I've never seen it but he says he has one in possession so I believe him because he did work for IBM in Vermont back then.
However, my point was that FingerWorks was entirely responsible for the provision of the the multi-touch technology that Apple used. I believe the fixed bumps became an afterthought and the former FingerWorks designer realized they can improve on it and I'm sure he must've have pitched that idea to Steve Jobs.
After all, he is the expert on this and this is why Apple acquired his business.
The dynamic bumps, I suspect, are probably a way to use a SHIFT key. So, obviously if you use double-tap, you'll feel the bumps to use CAPS. And then tap again to use lower-case. Makes a hell of a lot of sense why they're going that route.
However, my point was that FingerWorks was entirely responsible for the provision of the the multi-touch technology that Apple used. I believe the fixed bumps became an afterthought and the former FingerWorks designer realized they can improve on it and I'm sure he must've have pitched that idea to Steve Jobs.
After all, he is the expert on this and this is why Apple acquired his business.
The dynamic bumps, I suspect, are probably a way to use a SHIFT key. So, obviously if you use double-tap, you'll feel the bumps to use CAPS. And then tap again to use lower-case. Makes a hell of a lot of sense why they're going that route.
Like a few of you said, this is either an idea that some of us have been thinking about or something we've heard about in research. The real trick, of course, is to integrate the mechanical/optical parts in a way that actually works!
I'd be very surprised (delighted) if the tablet had something like this. I'm just hoping for a solid 1st gen tablet at a reasonable price.
Since we are talking about innovative ideas, I am surprised that no one has yet come out with a keyboard that replaces some (or all) the silkscreened letters on the keys with tiny 30x30 pixel LCD's. This would be very nice, if it was too expensive to do all the keys (for kick-ass language features, for example), a dozen keys at the top of the keyboard for application-specific uses would be very handy. Apple would be a good company to do this because it owns the OS and hardware.
I'd be very surprised (delighted) if the tablet had something like this. I'm just hoping for a solid 1st gen tablet at a reasonable price.
Since we are talking about innovative ideas, I am surprised that no one has yet come out with a keyboard that replaces some (or all) the silkscreened letters on the keys with tiny 30x30 pixel LCD's. This would be very nice, if it was too expensive to do all the keys (for kick-ass language features, for example), a dozen keys at the top of the keyboard for application-specific uses would be very handy. Apple would be a good company to do this because it owns the OS and hardware.
if the fingerworks guys have anything to do with this they would have to be listed as inventors in this patent application. It's the law that you must list anyone who conceived any part of the claimed invention (and you can't list anyone else). So are any of those guys from fingerworks?
going out on a limb here, but...
I believe this will never see use. I think it was a patent developed prior to the introduction of the iPhone or shortly after right? Y'all remember all the fuss over no tactile feedback, it still exists. It's like Apple worried about it, problem solved it, debated it, developed it, and in the end chose not to pursue. Now Apple seems firmly in the camp of virtual keyboards, IMHO, as well they should be. Others are moving that way. Apparently the new google phone has no physical keyboard.
So I think this patent will end up being a relic or put to use in some other way.
The integrated screen/camera patent a while back is much more interesting and likely in my mind. Pupil recognition and tracking would be sick. Imagine looking at your HD icon "double-blinking" and a finder window opening, then looking near the bottom for the list to scroll. That, would be surprising. Not only would it be revolutionary it would help with eye strain
That's dreaming im sure.
So what's the surprising interaction method more likely to be? Expansive voice control and a "surprisingly" expanded gesture library anyone, or not surprising enough?
I believe this will never see use. I think it was a patent developed prior to the introduction of the iPhone or shortly after right? Y'all remember all the fuss over no tactile feedback, it still exists. It's like Apple worried about it, problem solved it, debated it, developed it, and in the end chose not to pursue. Now Apple seems firmly in the camp of virtual keyboards, IMHO, as well they should be. Others are moving that way. Apparently the new google phone has no physical keyboard.
So I think this patent will end up being a relic or put to use in some other way.
The integrated screen/camera patent a while back is much more interesting and likely in my mind. Pupil recognition and tracking would be sick. Imagine looking at your HD icon "double-blinking" and a finder window opening, then looking near the bottom for the list to scroll. That, would be surprising. Not only would it be revolutionary it would help with eye strain
That's dreaming im sure.
So what's the surprising interaction method more likely to be? Expansive voice control and a "surprisingly" expanded gesture library anyone, or not surprising enough?
the future of keyboards
Keyboards really are starting to seem like archaic parts attached to modern machines.
I believe that the iPhone will be looked back on as the beginning of a shift away from mechanical input devices. If a tablet is release with a virtual keyboard that will just be another step toward keyboards going bye bye.
Step 3?
I don't think the traditional clam-shell laptop will go away but the input side of the clam could definitely use a reworking, one solid touch surface with customizable input. This is where the old split keyboard idea would actually make sense. The angle on those physical split keyboards never worked for me, but if I could bring up a keyboard on my input pad, place my fingers and then split it, positioning my hands in the most comfortable way anywhere on the surface, that would be more than neat.
Combine that with retina tracking and the keys could disappear if you were looking at the screen but fade back in if you were to glance down at your keyboard.
Far enough into the future we may just see people tapping away in coffee shops at blank black pads that only come to life when the person looks down, because in a way aren't keystrokes just touch gestures?
Think about how hard you had to push on the key of an old school typewriter, we've been tapping softer and softer since that day, seems like natural progression to me.
80% of all my spelling mistakes on my laptop happen cause I didn't push the key hard enough, i blame the iPhone..
Keyboards really are starting to seem like archaic parts attached to modern machines.
I believe that the iPhone will be looked back on as the beginning of a shift away from mechanical input devices. If a tablet is release with a virtual keyboard that will just be another step toward keyboards going bye bye.
Step 3?
I don't think the traditional clam-shell laptop will go away but the input side of the clam could definitely use a reworking, one solid touch surface with customizable input. This is where the old split keyboard idea would actually make sense. The angle on those physical split keyboards never worked for me, but if I could bring up a keyboard on my input pad, place my fingers and then split it, positioning my hands in the most comfortable way anywhere on the surface, that would be more than neat.
Combine that with retina tracking and the keys could disappear if you were looking at the screen but fade back in if you were to glance down at your keyboard.
Far enough into the future we may just see people tapping away in coffee shops at blank black pads that only come to life when the person looks down, because in a way aren't keystrokes just touch gestures?
Think about how hard you had to push on the key of an old school typewriter, we've been tapping softer and softer since that day, seems like natural progression to me.
80% of all my spelling mistakes on my laptop happen cause I didn't push the key hard enough, i blame the iPhone..
What everyone seems to be missing is that this tactile keyboard will not be on the front of the devise on the screen, but rather on the back side. The front will be a regular glass screen with no on screen keyboard, but rather you'll be able to look at the screen and type on the back of the device with your fingers while holding it with two hands. The tactile bumps on the back will be used to help your fingers locate the buttons without actually looking at them, and when not in typing mode they will retract and provide a smooth surface to rest the device on. This is very innovative and may actually alleviate the problem of not having a physical keyboard on a tablet. I WANT ONE NOW!!!
have to disagree
I don't believe that Apple sees it as a "problem" so I vote 'not gonna happen' on the back becoming input.
besides, the back of the device is what you set it down on, you should see the back of my iPod, in fact every iPod I have ever had.
I also do not think that Apple would completely prohibit the ability of the consumer to put a case on what is likely to be as fragile a device as the iPhone and believe me they are fragile.
The back will stay the back. I think the only back that this patent will ever see is the back of a filing bin.
I don't believe that Apple sees it as a "problem" so I vote 'not gonna happen' on the back becoming input.
besides, the back of the device is what you set it down on, you should see the back of my iPod, in fact every iPod I have ever had.
I also do not think that Apple would completely prohibit the ability of the consumer to put a case on what is likely to be as fragile a device as the iPhone and believe me they are fragile.
The back will stay the back. I think the only back that this patent will ever see is the back of a filing bin.
You seemed to miss what i said, the tactile bumps on the back of the device will RETRACT when not in keyboard mode providing a smooth surface just like your iphone and ipods now.
Recall the New York Times report from an insider that claimed "you will be surprised how you interact with the device", an on screen keyboard is nothing new even with bumps.
Not missing it... just disagree
And just like my iPods now that surface would get destroyed, scratched, bumped, scraped and once in a while wet. Even if they retract to make a flat surface the back is going to take the most abuse of the entire device. It is just not the appropriate place to implement the kind of tech we are talking about.
While I think the tactile thing is a cool patent and may have some future use I think this is not it.
Yes I recall. And I never said an onscreen keyboard was new.
This thread exsists because,
And again, you really think Apple is going to create something that nobody can sell accessories for?
Besides, if you think about it, the device having the ability to make little bumps changes the way that the device interacts with me and does not change in any fundamental way the how I interact with the device.
The above quote is clear to me, something I do will be different but this patent describes something the device will do.
I'll give it to you that me interacting with the back would be different but as I'm sure you can tell I think the idea is impractical.
For my thoughts on what would be "surprising" see my post a couple up titled going out on a limb.
And just like my iPods now that surface would get destroyed, scratched, bumped, scraped and once in a while wet. Even if they retract to make a flat surface the back is going to take the most abuse of the entire device. It is just not the appropriate place to implement the kind of tech we are talking about.
While I think the tactile thing is a cool patent and may have some future use I think this is not it.
Yes I recall. And I never said an onscreen keyboard was new.
This thread exsists because,
I added the emphasis on speculation. So, just because somebody said we would be surprised does not mean the iWhatever will have the backside of a french tickler.
And again, you really think Apple is going to create something that nobody can sell accessories for?
Besides, if you think about it, the device having the ability to make little bumps changes the way that the device interacts with me and does not change in any fundamental way the how I interact with the device.
The above quote is clear to me, something I do will be different but this patent describes something the device will do.
I'll give it to you that me interacting with the back would be different but as I'm sure you can tell I think the idea is impractical.
For my thoughts on what would be "surprising" see my post a couple up titled going out on a limb.
Cmaier,
It is true that Apple did acquire Fingerworks and it ceased as a company. If you go to www.fingerworks.com, you'll then see why it's not in operation anymore, except that it still shows the photos of their products way before Apple ever included the multi-touch technology. They got bought out in around 2005-2006.
I don't think their names can be revealed because if Apple buys them out, then they own the patent as well. It was a corporate 'buy out' to prevent other tech companies such as Microsoft from getting their hands on them.
So, believe me. That story circulated around a couple years ago about Fingerworks and Apple. All that multi-touch stuff that you're seeing on Apple's products originally came from FingerWorks and I'm sure the CEO/engineer is the only person along with a few others are working for Apple's multi-touch division. The rest of the crew was laid off.
I hate to say this but there are lot of ignorant people out there who have NO idea that this was FingerWork's technology that preceded all this. CNN's story on the tablet shows some of the comments that were just so un-educated it's not even funny. They assumed it was Steve Jobs that invented it. That's BS. He is a visionary and a very good businessman. All he did was add his own ideas to meld with FingerWorks' technology to improve on a few things to give his company a competitive edge and change the way we interact with computers and devices, but also our productivity.
People need to stop kissing Jobs' a$$ and realize that he is NOT God. He makes mistakes and is only human. Remember the G4 Cube? I grew up with Apple's products since the early 1980s. I'm not knocking Jobs because he is a very intelligent man and understands his market well.
People need to realize that the 'Slate' may not be a full-blown Mac computer, but a hybrid between a Netbook and a Tablet PC, filling in that particular void as an in-betweener for simple and light productivity work 'on the go' that would be good for anyone in any industry, even the educational sector. I'm sure eventually between 5 to 10 years from now that Slate would and CAN replace the laptops, if the market demands for it.
As an artist/designer, I would like to have the Slate as my digital 'book'. "Book" is a term in the creative industry for portfolio for presentation purposes with the Art Director or meeting with clients to showcase the project in progress, and perhaps make editing changes there, but the real work would be done on the main system (Mac Pro, MacBook etc).
He was one of the people who probably engineered the Marvel buyout from Disney, that would probably tie in with his Tablet/Slate concept.
I would'nt be surprised if Mr. Jobs decided to use that Slate to enhance the medical industry for doctors, LPNs, etc. After all, he must've done a lot of thinking while being in the hospital for his illness and saw doctors/nurses carrying items that could'nt streamlined the process and figured "Hey, maybe our Slate could solve their productivity issues".
Think about it.
It is true that Apple did acquire Fingerworks and it ceased as a company. If you go to www.fingerworks.com, you'll then see why it's not in operation anymore, except that it still shows the photos of their products way before Apple ever included the multi-touch technology. They got bought out in around 2005-2006.
I don't think their names can be revealed because if Apple buys them out, then they own the patent as well. It was a corporate 'buy out' to prevent other tech companies such as Microsoft from getting their hands on them.
So, believe me. That story circulated around a couple years ago about Fingerworks and Apple. All that multi-touch stuff that you're seeing on Apple's products originally came from FingerWorks and I'm sure the CEO/engineer is the only person along with a few others are working for Apple's multi-touch division. The rest of the crew was laid off.
I hate to say this but there are lot of ignorant people out there who have NO idea that this was FingerWork's technology that preceded all this. CNN's story on the tablet shows some of the comments that were just so un-educated it's not even funny. They assumed it was Steve Jobs that invented it. That's BS. He is a visionary and a very good businessman. All he did was add his own ideas to meld with FingerWorks' technology to improve on a few things to give his company a competitive edge and change the way we interact with computers and devices, but also our productivity.
People need to stop kissing Jobs' a$$ and realize that he is NOT God. He makes mistakes and is only human. Remember the G4 Cube? I grew up with Apple's products since the early 1980s. I'm not knocking Jobs because he is a very intelligent man and understands his market well.
People need to realize that the 'Slate' may not be a full-blown Mac computer, but a hybrid between a Netbook and a Tablet PC, filling in that particular void as an in-betweener for simple and light productivity work 'on the go' that would be good for anyone in any industry, even the educational sector. I'm sure eventually between 5 to 10 years from now that Slate would and CAN replace the laptops, if the market demands for it.
As an artist/designer, I would like to have the Slate as my digital 'book'. "Book" is a term in the creative industry for portfolio for presentation purposes with the Art Director or meeting with clients to showcase the project in progress, and perhaps make editing changes there, but the real work would be done on the main system (Mac Pro, MacBook etc).
He was one of the people who probably engineered the Marvel buyout from Disney, that would probably tie in with his Tablet/Slate concept.
I would'nt be surprised if Mr. Jobs decided to use that Slate to enhance the medical industry for doctors, LPNs, etc. After all, he must've done a lot of thinking while being in the hospital for his illness and saw doctors/nurses carrying items that could'nt streamlined the process and figured "Hey, maybe our Slate could solve their productivity issues".
Think about it.
you've missed my point. I know all about fingerworks and that apple bought them. You said they have something to do with the TACTILE FEEDBACK patent. I said that if that was so then former fingerworks employees would be listed as inventors on that patent. That is the law. There is no exception. A patent is invalid unless the list of inventors is correct. There is no "cannot be revealed" exception.
So the simple question is whether any of the listed inventors on the tactile feedback patent applications used to work at fingerworks or not.
So the simple question is whether any of the listed inventors on the tactile feedback patent applications used to work at fingerworks or not.
Cmaier,
The problem is that lilskaterpunk mentioned the tactile feedback from FingerWorks. Not me. Therefore, if you don't see them listed, that means Apple is hiding the names OR that they can't own the patent because other competitors are using it such as RIM's tactile feedback on the Storm. It does NOT mean Apple invented the feedack but rather included the idea into the tablet device. You'll have to dig deeper into the records.
The problem is that lilskaterpunk mentioned the tactile feedback from FingerWorks. Not me. Therefore, if you don't see them listed, that means Apple is hiding the names OR that they can't own the patent because other competitors are using it such as RIM's tactile feedback on the Storm. It does NOT mean Apple invented the feedack but rather included the idea into the tablet device. You'll have to dig deeper into the records.
I don't know of they are listed or not. But if they are not, then they had nothing to do with tactile stuff. Apple cannot legally hide their names.
I'm typing from my Blackberry (sorry, no iphone for me)and see your point. Let's supposed they are hiding the credit of invention from FingerWorks, then this could be a big story and land Apple in huge trouble.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to see any info on tactile feedback on FingerWorks' old website. The OP to my post may be making it up. But I have to double-check to make sure.
There's got to be an article via Google search or on MacForums archive about Apple buying out FingerWorks to see exactly which tech was bought and which was dumped.
QUOTE=cmaier;9001932]I don't know of they are listed or not. But if they are not, then they had nothing to do with tactile stuff. Apple cannot legally hide their names.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, I can't seem to see any info on tactile feedback on FingerWorks' old website. The OP to my post may be making it up. But I have to double-check to make sure.
There's got to be an article via Google search or on MacForums archive about Apple buying out FingerWorks to see exactly which tech was bought and which was dumped.
QUOTE=cmaier;9001932]I don't know of they are listed or not. But if they are not, then they had nothing to do with tactile stuff. Apple cannot legally hide their names.[/QUOTE]
This is some of the silliest nonsense I've ever read. I'll start where I agree. For people who like the split keyboard the ability to have a touch screen input device and set what's comfortable for the hand positions sounds nice.
However, a blank screen with retinal tracking so the key positions appear when you look down? What kind of roundabout stupid crap is that? If we're talking about retinal tracking, why in the world wouldn't the tracking do the typing for you a la systems currently developed and used for the handicapped? You look, it types...rather than looking down to a smooth surface causing key positions to appear because you can't feel what you're doing...just stupid.
Second, I have no idea what this thing will look like but I know if people are going to type on it regularly with any kind of efficiency there's going to have to be some kind of tactile feedback for the keys. Flat surface means losing your place and that means looking down and that means slowing down, period. iPhone virtual keyboards are versatile and fine for quick notes and messages but who would want to takes notes or do a paper or post anything longer than a paragraph on a bigger version of that? It would be a nightmare.
Cmaier,
Let me point out a few articles in 2007 or so relating to the buy out.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/some-iphone-touchscreen-roots-splained-by-fingerworks-inventors/
http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/12385/
A person's blog about it: http://freelancesamurai.wordpress.com/category/fingerworks/
From here:
https://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/21/iphone-pc-mag-review-fingerworks-and-jeff-han/
Wayne Westerman is the guy you're thinking of who invented the FingerWorks tech. EDIT: along with a few other folks in his crew back then.
Let me point out a few articles in 2007 or so relating to the buy out.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/some-iphone-touchscreen-roots-splained-by-fingerworks-inventors/
http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/12385/
A person's blog about it: http://freelancesamurai.wordpress.com/category/fingerworks/
From here:
https://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/21/iphone-pc-mag-review-fingerworks-and-jeff-han/
Wayne Westerman is the guy you're thinking of who invented the FingerWorks tech. EDIT: along with a few other folks in his crew back then.
Slate as virtual keyboard
There are people out there who say that the Slate can be a virtual keyboard.
Well, have all of you EVER considered where the inspiration may be from?
Here it is:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
http://www.360east.com/?p=889
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/9836/
It's going to be similar to that idea but not to that exact physicality, but close.
There are people out there who say that the Slate can be a virtual keyboard.
Well, have all of you EVER considered where the inspiration may be from?
Here it is:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
http://www.360east.com/?p=889
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/9836/
It's going to be similar to that idea but not to that exact physicality, but close.
What's your point? I've never disputed any of this. If Wayne Westerman was at fingerworks, then former fingerworks guys ARE involved in the raised key technology as he is listed as an inventor on the patent applications.
Slate as dual screen
This is one of the reasons why I theorize the Slate (ugh) would probably be clamshell in form like a book.
Check it out:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kenh/codex-chi-2009-with-authors.pdf
Of course, imagine THAT dual screen in 10 inches of that size, so literally having two 10 inche clamshell screens popped and flatted into one large double-page spread. What do magazines have in common?
Double-page spread interactive ads. Open and close like it an (i) Book.
This is one of the reasons why I theorize the Slate (ugh) would probably be clamshell in form like a book.
Check it out:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kenh/codex-chi-2009-with-authors.pdf
Of course, imagine THAT dual screen in 10 inches of that size, so literally having two 10 inche clamshell screens popped and flatted into one large double-page spread. What do magazines have in common?
Double-page spread interactive ads. Open and close like it an (i) Book
.
This is one of the reasons why I theorize the Slate (ugh) would probably be clamshell in form like a book.
Check it out:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kenh/codex-chi-2009-with-authors.pdf
Of course, imagine THAT dual screen in 10 inches of that size, so literally having two 10 inche clamshell screens popped and flatted into one large double-page spread. What do magazines have in common?
Double-page spread interactive ads. Open and close like it an (i) Book
It would be nice, but given that Apple eschewed clamshell even in phones, where it's been a common paradigm, I doubt it.
In the patent, they're huge. Imagine a pre-determined cut-out keyboard stencil that rises up and creates key depressions on an elastic screen cover.
Basically it's good for creating keys that are always the same shape, in the same location. Hardly science fiction stuff.
His public salesmanship apparently has nothing to do with actual beliefs. He's been known to knock something right up until his product uses it... at which time it becomes the greatest thing ever.
In the case of the iPhone, his product couldn't use an accurate stylus, so of course he put them down. A different product could get a different slant on the topic.
Again, no. FingerWorks' work and patents were all about gestures on capacitive keyboards, not screens. Moreover, multi-touch capacitive screens had been around years before FingerWorks even existed.
There is such a keyboard with key displays. It's pretty expensive though. Something like $2000.
I have a friend who is blind. If I understand the patent correctly, then in some form it looks like something that could be developed to provide an input AND output tactile interface for folks who are visually impaired. Either way, this looks very interesting!