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Queen6

macrumors G4
I can't agree with this statement. At all :)
First off, SB2 is outdated and overpriced. Just like some products in Apple lineup.

Secondly, you can't even connect it to two monitors without some overpriced MS dock that doesn't even work like a charm.

And lastly, most of these problems would be solved with just one TB3 port, but SB2 doesn't have that.

So, if possible, I would wait for SB3.

P.S.
SB2 is a excellent product, I've used one for 10 days or so. Peace of art IMHO. But considering the price and specs, not worth it at all. Unless you need such a specific device, well, then you go out and purchase one :)

As with Apple it just comes with the territory and the next best thing is always round the corner. If my project changes, which is likely I wouldn't hesitate with SB2 and a couple of years down the line I'll pick up the SB4 with a significant advancement in hardware. As ever the need is always in the now...

If one is making a living off the hardware, the cost is irrelevant and jump to the next iteration doesn't always guarantee stability. As for SB3 best guess October, me I'd roll with 15" SB2 as RTX isn't a factor, equally USB C/TB-3 would be clearly of benefit to those tethered to external high resolution/speed devices.

In context the keyboard is superb on the SB2 :)

Q-6
 
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hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
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I like the razer keyboard but the laptop is too warm to be comfortable to use.
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
As with Apple it just comes with the territory and the next best thing is always round the corner. If my project changes, which is likely I wouldn't hesitate with SB2 and a couple of years down the line I'll pick up the SB4 with a significant advancement in hardware. As ever the need is always in the now...

If one is making a living off the hardware, the cost is irrelevant and jump to the next iteration doesn't always guarantee stability. As for SB3 best guess October, me I'd roll with 15" SB2 as RTX isn't a factor, equally USB C/TB-3 would be clearly of benefit to those tethered to external high resolution/speed devices.

In context the keyboard is superb on the SB2 :)

Q-6

That's why I said, if you need auch specific device, and can't wait, purchase one.

Otherwise, either skip or buy something else. TB3 isn't just for eGPU, SB2 has very few ports, so for people like me who value docking their workstations, TB3 is great.

And I do agree, keyboard on SB2 is great! I would also add that SB2 is silent and with great thermals.
[doublepost=1560496400][/doublepost]
I like the razer keyboard but the laptop is too warm to be comfortable to use.

It's a gaming laptop. It should be warm and noisy. Gaming devices tend to be that way.
 
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hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
7,906
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It's a gaming laptop. It should be warm and noisy. Gaming devices tend to be that way.

But nobody was using the 3 razer laptops to game at that time. They were just idle. Why they were "very warm"?
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
But nobody was using the 3 razer laptops to game at that time. They were just idle. Why they were "very warm"?

Those things use best cpu and gpu available, in a thin and light chassis. Only time when they can be cold to the touch is when they are turned off. And I'm not sure they would be cold even when turned off :D
 
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kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
Those things use best cpu and gpu available, in a thin and light chassis. Only time when they can be cold to the touch is when they are turned off. And I'm not sure they would be cold even when turned off :D

It is kind of mind boggling how they engineered these to fit the cpu and gpu. I heard the fans while I was resetting the machine but they calmed down after I put the laptop onto an elevated stand.

Mine got warm in spots, but I expected that given the components mentioned above.

BTW, I did a refund. Nothing else at the MS store called to me. I did go to Apple afterward and the only butterfly laptop keyboard I could use was the 15” MBP. I much preferred the iMac Pro extended “magic” keyboard :D:rolleyes::D
 
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hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
7,906
1,306
Even manufacturers such as Acer, MSI, ASUS, Razer and Gigabyte release a laptop that fits my requirements, I am a bit hesitate to buy from them due to uncertainty of after sale support. Acer also keeps postponing the release of those new Concept laptops.

I have good experience with Lenovo services (at least within the return period). From what I read, at least they really send somebody to customers' place to fix computers. Their laptops are also easy for user to upgrade. Too bad I still cannot find a suitable one yet. My Yoga C930 behaved strangely today and tech support thinks that it has hardware issue. Don't know when they actually release the 4K version of X1Y4 and X1 Extreme/P1 Gen 2. At least for the X1Y4, it is going to have worse battery life than current ones due to smaller battery size.

Went to MS Store two days ago and asked again what would happen if I buy SB2 and something goes wrong. Again, they said that it will be replaced by refurbished unit. Different stores and different staff told me the same policy so I guess they do things differently in Canada. SB2 also has no 2TB version and I really don't like to spend large amount of money on 2-year old products.

Checked HP website and bestbuy. They have 13" 4K model but the screen size is a bit small. 15" 4K model is 2.2kg. Too bad they don't sell 14" 4K laptop. As for LG Gram, there is also no 4K model.

From this review, it looks like Apple has solved the thermal throttling i9 issue and in store, the new machine seems to be quiet. Too bad new MBP are not Linux friendly and they do not use Nvidia GPU. Moreover, they have butterfly keyboard which may also fail. However, Apple has physical stores so in case something happen, I just go to those stores in person to complain.


Given that I cannot find a quiet laptop with Nvidia GPU (be it GTX 1050 or RTX 20x0), I wonder if I should just buy a MBP 2019 and remote login to my powerful desktop at home if I need to run CUDA related simulations.
 

LindsayD

macrumors regular
Mar 7, 2019
141
93
England
Even manufacturers such as Acer, MSI, ASUS, Razer and Gigabyte release a laptop that fits my requirements ....

From this review, it looks like Apple has solved the thermal throttling i9 issue and in store, the new machine seems to be quiet.

Given that I cannot find a quiet laptop with Nvidia GPU (be it GTX 1050 or RTX 20x0), I wonder if I should just buy a MBP 2019 and remote login to my powerful desktop at home if I need to run CUDA related simulations.

WRT your dilemma, the best analogy I can think of is a car situation. I have my everyday workhorse vehicle which is a smart, practical, very comfortable, quiet, and quite fast 4x4. I’m also very lucky to have a sports car in the garage .....

There are some caveats to owning something sleek which contains performance parts. One is a measure of noise, as we know. If I walked into my local Porsche dealership and said “I like how it drives but I am not happy with the noises coming out of this mid-engined thing - I want to exchange it for another mid-engine high performing model, perhaps with a bigger engine to the one I’m bringing back. And I want it to be almost silent”. Imagine the kind of response I would get. Nothing is going to change the fact that the gearbox is just behind my head and the air intake will open at a particular speed, and the engine note will change to something quite high at a particular RPM. The bottom line is that if I want to enjoy having that kind of performance there are compromises to be made – whichever marque I went with. I might be advised to instead look at a Golf GTi - snappy and well engineered, ample for my purpose …… but, but, but it just won’t take the corners in the same way and it has less curb appeal.

The Razers, the Aeros, the MSIs …. they are the Porsches of the laptop world. If you want something a little quieter then there are plenty of other options with less powerful GPUs and different thermal management systems. The machines you're referenced are quite specialised laptops and you’re not going to find them in every house in your street - just as you won’t find sports cars in every driveway.

These laptops are quiet for most tasks but when we get into the performance zone they are going to make noises which we may not like at times but we cannot reasonably complain about (unless there is a known fault with the machine). You have the benefit of also having your ‘daily driver’ in the form of a very powerful desktop computer - so you are not relying on your laptop (under sufferance) for all of your needs. I would wager that most of the people who have contributed to these discussions would probably prefer that their laptops are silent, but they understand that is not realistic.

Lastly, in your workplace or place of study have you spoken to your colleagues about the machines they use and have you had an opportunity to examine and listen to their computers? Don’t be afraid to approach people, they will probably be happy to discuss how they feel about their technology. Since you are all probably performing similar tasks that could be a practical thing to explore.

I feel that adjusting your thought process needs to be a precursor to your next purchase.
 

hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
7,906
1,306
WRT your dilemma, the best analogy I can think of is a car situation. I have my everyday workhorse vehicle which is a smart, practical, very comfortable, quiet, and quite fast 4x4. I’m also very lucky to have a sports car in the garage .....

There are some caveats to owning something sleek which contains performance parts. One is a measure of noise, as we know. If I walked into my local Porsche dealership and said “I like how it drives but I am not happy with the noises coming out of this mid-engined thing - I want to exchange it for another mid-engine high performing model, perhaps with a bigger engine to the one I’m bringing back. And I want it to be almost silent”. Imagine the kind of response I would get. Nothing is going to change the fact that the gearbox is just behind my head and the air intake will open at a particular speed, and the engine note will change to something quite high at a particular RPM. The bottom line is that if I want to enjoy having that kind of performance there are compromises to be made – whichever marque I went with. I might be advised to instead look at a Golf GTi - snappy and well engineered, ample for my purpose …… but, but, but it just won’t take the corners in the same way and it has less curb appeal.

The Razers, the Aeros, the MSIs …. they are the Porsches of the laptop world. If you want something a little quieter then there are plenty of other options with less powerful GPUs and different thermal management systems. The machines you're referenced are quite specialised laptops and you’re not going to find them in every house in your street - just as you won’t find sports cars in every driveway.

These laptops are quiet for most tasks but when we get into the performance zone they are going to make noises which we may not like at times but we cannot reasonably complain about (unless there is a known fault with the machine). You have the benefit of also having your ‘daily driver’ in the form of a very powerful desktop computer - so you are not relying on your laptop (under sufferance) for all of your needs. I would wager that most of the people who have contributed to these discussions would probably prefer that their laptops are silent, but they understand that is not realistic.

Lastly, in your workplace or place of study have you spoken to your colleagues about the machines they use and have you had an opportunity to examine and listen to their computers? Don’t be afraid to approach people, they will probably be happy to discuss how they feel about their technology. Since you are all probably performing similar tasks that could be a practical thing to explore.

I feel that adjusting your thought process needs to be a precursor to your next purchase.

For the laptops that are quiet for most tasks, do they also behave like that under Linux and Hackintosh or just under Windows?

I seldom see a colleague using expensive laptops. Most of them use cheap laptops or dirty and slow computers at school.
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
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For the laptops that are quiet for most tasks, do they also behave like that under Linux and Hackintosh or just under Windows?

Noisy laptops will be noisy under windows and linux.
My X1E is quiet under windows, and under linux. No issues with sound at all. CPU temps are way better under Linux, at least in my case. At this moment I'm connected to two external monitors via TB3 (2560x1440 monitors), and just surfing the web with MailSpring opened, Godot3, VLC and terminal. CPU temp is at 46 celsius.

In the same scenario under Windows, CPU temp will hover around 55-60 celsius. But can't test that out right now, since I have completely removed my Win10 install. Using Win10 in VM from now on, since I didn't even log into my previous win10 install for a long time now.

But you have to keep in mind that linux isn't just installing it and doing your stuff. You have to at least undervolt something like X1E, and there isn't a GUI application for that. Small utility called intel-undervolt works like a charm, but it's terminal based.

After that at least just install TLP. If you're not happy with default settings, well, tweak it a bit. That once can be tweaked via GUI application at least. Forgot the name of the application for doing that, but it's easily googled up.
 
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hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
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Noisy laptops will be noisy under windows and linux.
My X1E is quiet under windows, and under linux. No issues with sound at all. CPU temps are way better under Linux, at least in my case. At this moment I'm connected to two external monitors via TB3 (2560x1440 monitors), and just surfing the web with MailSpring opened, Godot3, VLC and terminal. CPU temp is at 46 celsius.

In the same scenario under Windows, CPU temp will hover around 55-60 celsius. But can't test that out right now, since I have completely removed my Win10 install. Using Win10 in VM from now on, since I didn't even log into my previous win10 install for a long time now.

But you have to keep in mind that linux isn't just installing it and doing your stuff. You have to at least undervolt something like X1E, and there isn't a GUI application for that. Small utility called intel-undervolt works like a charm, but it's terminal based.

After that at least just install TLP. If you're not happy with default settings, well, tweak it a bit. That once can be tweaked via GUI application at least. Forgot the name of the application for doing that, but it's easily googled up.


Thanks for mentioning about intel-undervolt. Didn't know about it. I was keen on getting a MBP 2019 the past few days due to its quietness. However, after hearing all sorts of issues with those 2016-2019 MBPs, I am now back to looking for a Windows laptop that can also be turned into a Hackintosh. It seems that some users have successfully turned their X1E into a Hackintosh.
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
I just ordered a 2019 Asus Vivobook S15 from Amazon. Yes, I have an MBA (I cannot return now), but my immense disgust with the TV App is making me want to try Windows again. VLC is working on my Macs, but I want try video conversions from a PC perspective (I am not sure if this is the integrated graphics or the MX250), and the other writing things I do on this.

So back to a starter machine, and Asus no less. This has the touchpad 2.0 screen (which will probably work better than Asus’ normal trackpads).

So take 5? I think and in “Punk Pink.” :p:rolleyes::p
 
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0989382

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Jan 11, 2018
527
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I don't think Lenovo's is anything special really, it's just the least bad of all the PC manufacturers, because when it comes to HP and Dell, you'd probably need to make a conscious commitment to being poor quality, to be honest. Definitely in the case of HP, and it saddens me to say it..

I think if Apple didn't take risks in pursuit of pushing the bar higher (e.g. the keyboard) it'd beat Lenovo with it's eyes closed in quality and reliability, think of the original Unibody MBPs.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
I think if Apple didn't take risks in pursuit of pushing the bar higher (e.g. the keyboard) it'd beat Lenovo with it's eyes closed in quality and reliability, think of the original Unibody MBPs.

Clearly a joke Apple and risk. Apple is all to happy to sell it's soul to the shallow. Reliability :p Apple's a joke to the informed. "Bar higher" and Butterfly don't remotely exist in the same universe, divisive at very best, garbage at worst.

Apple wants to market and sell Pro notebooks do so, stop with the trash as we're not interested and you know it...

Q-6
 

0989382

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Jan 11, 2018
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Clearly a joke Apple and risk. All to happy to happy to sell it's soul to the shallow. Reliability Apple's a joke to the informed. "Bar higher" and Butterfly don't remotely exist in the same universe, divisive at very best, garbage at worst.

Apple wants to market and sell Pro notebooks do so, stop with the trash as we're not interested and you know it...

Q-6

Well you're entitled to a different opinion to mine.

I quite like the butterfly keyboard and how it feels to use, it's the fastest keyboard I've ever typed on. A lot of people do like it too. it's a shame about the reliability issues, that's why I mentioned it as a point against Apple in this kind of discussion. But they're standing by their mistake and making it right, and it's not stopping sales to date. I reckon we'll see a radically different keyboard in the next models.
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
I know this is a sidetrack...but while no comparison, I very happily returned the 2018 iPad today that I bought when I finally handed over the existing one to mom two weeks ago.

iOS is so freaking buggy, and the rampant touch disease made it unusable. It's at the point that between this and the crappy build quality and locking down of iOS and macOS, I just am at wits end with Apple. This MBA is a stop gap but it cannot do what my limping iMac on Sierra can and I knew that, but that was before I knew how awful the TVapp is. To say everything else.

I am thinking of playing with Linux on this MBA and getting a taste for it.

I am ready to heave ho macOS...when these machines go, so will I.

On the PC side, I demo tested a few PCs at Best Buy today (including the lower end 730 15.6" Lenovo Yoga which I liked. Ditto the lower end HP). Hilarious that I couldn't test the higher end Yogas because there aren't enough power supplies to plug them in at my local Best Buy. :confused::rolleyes::confused: Why have them on display then? Anyway, I do not know Asus they had on display but they were not for me.

This rep was trying to tell me the differences were the specs and I politely said, "Oh, I know."

I'll be shopping at the Microsoft Store thank you very much. :) I am waiting until next year and see what's available then. I will not be updating or replacing either Mac or my iPhone 8. It's time.
 
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Frankied22

macrumors 68000
Nov 24, 2010
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I really want to try out a X1 Carbon...

I have always maintained a windows pc for gaming but I have been Macs for laptops for years now so I am not sure how I would handle going back to Windows for a laptop.
 

0989382

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Jan 11, 2018
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Probably. But until that happens, you really can't call MBP reliable. It's anything but reliable.

The keyboard's unreliable, for some people. It's a small percentage of users, granted, that's a HUGE amount of people given the sales of the MBP, but if you looked at hardware problems for others including Lenovo that also usually is 'just a few % of owners', so take it how you will.

I personally did have issues with the MBP, driving to the Apple Store, being without it for a week etc and called it a day on it, but lots of people I know have just seemed to get lucky and have no issues. So even in my locale, it's one in many people with the issue. Definitely a bit blown out of proportion.
[doublepost=1564410034][/doublepost]
I really want to try out a X1 Carbon...

I have always maintained a windows pc for gaming but I have been Macs for laptops for years now so I am not sure how I would handle going back to Windows for a laptop.

Install a Boot Camp partition on your Mac and give it a trial! Nothing to lose then.
[doublepost=1564410585][/doublepost]
I am thinking of playing with Linux on this MBA and getting a taste for it.

You should, I had Linux on a ThinkPad X280 before coming back to the Mac again. I reckon your experience might go like mine... Great, amazing, liberating! For a week or two. Then, as you need to get work done it's still not so bad, Alternative apps, open formats, minimal disruption (but still, disruption) "It's worth it for open source". Then, something more intense workload will arise and you'll find yourself missing the convenience of the Mac (or Windows) and its private commercial software / formats. The workarounds will get "too much". You'll want Windows or MacOS back. ~Maybe not. Hopefully not, if you invest your money into it. But give it a prolonged trial on your Mac first. It's not easy as some people make it sound. My incredibly positive experience still didn't measure up to my own experience on the Mac, though I'll be the first to admit the problems it has.

I'll be shopping at the Microsoft Store thank you very much. :) I am waiting until next year and see what's available then. I will not be updating or replacing either Mac or my iPhone 8. It's time.

You're in luck. The previous year of Mac releases has been up and up and up. They're taking pros serious again, the pricing is more sensible, the range more well balanced... In a years time, that should only be more true!
 
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kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
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Any place but here or there....
The keyboard's unreliable, for some people. It's a small percentage of users, granted, that's a HUGE amount of people given the sales of the MBP, but if you looked at hardware problems for others including Lenovo that also usually is 'just a few % of owners', so take it how you will.

I personally did have issues with the MBP, driving to the Apple Store, being without it for a week etc and called it a day on it, but lots of people I know have just seemed to get lucky and have no issues. So even in my locale, it's one in many people with the issue. Definitely a bit blown out of proportion.
[doublepost=1564410034][/doublepost]

Install a Boot Camp partition on your Mac and give it a trial! Nothing to lose then.
[doublepost=1564410585][/doublepost]

You should, I had Linux on a ThinkPad X280 before coming back to the Mac again. I reckon your experience might go like mine... Great, amazing, liberating! For a week or two. Then, as you need to get work done it's still not so bad, Alternative apps, open formats, minimal disruption (but still, disruption) "It's worth it for open source". Then, something more intense workload will arise and you'll find yourself missing the convenience of the Mac (or Windows) and its private commercial software / formats. The workarounds will get "too much". You'll want Windows or MacOS back. ~Maybe not. Hopefully not, if you invest your money into it. But give it a prolonged trial on your Mac first. It's not easy as some people make it sound. My incredibly positive experience still didn't measure up to my own experience on the Mac, though I'll be the first to admit the problems it has.



You're in luck. The previous year of Mac releases has been up and up and up. They're taking pros serious again, the pricing is more sensible, the range more well balanced... In a years time, that should only be more true!
Linux is definitely dabbling on my end, I know I’ll have to use Windows for certain things -if I continue to engage in those creative endeavors, but it will be nice to have that option.

Thank you for your insights.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
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The keyboard's unreliable, for some people. It's a small percentage of users, granted, that's a HUGE amount of people given the sales of the MBP, but if you looked at hardware problems for others including Lenovo that also usually is 'just a few % of owners', so take it how you will.

How big or small the percentage is, you don't really know. Neither do I.
But the facts say this:
- Apple will probably abandon butterfly. Why? Because it's great?
- Apple was forced to open a repair program for this keyboard. Never before have they done that, since there was no need.
- Apple faced multiple lawsuits about this keyboard
- Lots of bad press about it as well.
- Repair program is rather expensive, since everything is glued in
- You even have a tutorial on Apples website on how to blow debris out of the keyboard.

I had multiplle keyboard fails, until I finally gave up and switched. My work suffered because of that idiotic 'inovation'.
Do you really think that I enjoyed making the switch? I'm a Mac user for 12 years now, and I use to for my work. I had to change my habits completely. Keyboard shortcuts aren't the same, lots of small apps/tweaks aren't there on the other OS, my complete workflow changed. Because of that 'great' keyboard.

You really think someone would go thru all of that because they woke up on morning and decided to make the switch out of thin air?

How large the percentage is, no one actually knows. Except Apple. So you're just guessing, like the most of us.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
How big or small the percentage is, you don't really know. Neither do I.
But the facts say this:
- Apple will probably abandon butterfly. Why? Because it's great?
- Apple was forced to open a repair program for this keyboard. Never before have they done that, since there was no need.
- Apple faced multiple lawsuits about this keyboard
- Lots of bad press about it as well.
- Repair program is rather expensive, since everything is glued in
- You even have a tutorial on Apples website on how to blow debris out of the keyboard.

I had multiplle keyboard fails, until I finally gave up and switched. My work suffered because of that idiotic 'inovation'.
Do you really think that I enjoyed making the switch? I'm a Mac user for 12 years now, and I use to for my work. I had to change my habits completely. Keyboard shortcuts aren't the same, lots of small apps/tweaks aren't there on the other OS, my complete workflow changed. Because of that 'great' keyboard.

You really think someone would go thru all of that because they woke up on morning and decided to make the switch out of thin air?

How large the percentage is, no one actually knows. Except Apple. So you're just guessing, like the most of us.

For a major multinational company to put such an extensive repair program in place clearly indicates that the issue is far from affecting just a few percent of owners. Situation is very embarrassing for Apple, as once again "they" have engineered themselves back into the corner...

Even if the 2019 Butterfly keyboard proves to be reliable the damage to the brand has already been done. Public perception will only diminish as more keyboards fail in time. Apple really needs to move to a rebranded if not new design of keyboard. Nor should the keyboard be so very divisive, it should appeal to the vast majority of users and certainly not prove to be less reliable than any of it's predecessors.

The Butterfly Keyboard was born out of vanity to allow Apple to present a "thinner" chassis to the general public, not improve the typing experience. All I know who used the MBP professionally have dropped the Mac thx to the keyboard, poor thermal management and reduced usability, an audience Apple wont win back easily...

Apple desperately wants the kudos professional's bring to the MBP, yet only really wants to produce what works for Apple, hence why so few professional's are on the platform...

Q-6
 
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ApplesandOranges

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But nobody was using the 3 razer laptops to game at that time. They were just idle. Why they were "very warm"?
Where we're you that you sampled three Razer laptops that were all warm? Inside a retail store where the screen savers are turned off and the screens stay on indefinitely?

I recently had a Razer that was fantastic. Great keyboard, very solid, great design, fast, and decent battery life. I returned it because I could not get used to Windows in an all Apple household. Still a great computer though. Did not run hot at all even while editing video. I will probably buy one again.
 

0989382

Suspended
Jan 11, 2018
527
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How big or small the percentage is, you don't really know. Neither do I.
But the facts say this: Facts?
- Apple will probably abandon butterfly. Why? Because it's great? (Nobody knows for sure, they might nail it yet)
- Apple was forced to open a repair program for this keyboard. Never before have they done that, since there was no need. Any time there is an issue, they launch a repair programme. There have been many for various issues faced by users, not just this one.
- Apple faced multiple lawsuits about this keyboard They're always facing multiple lawsuits from people for various things, the keyboard is no exception. Nobody ever took victory against Apple regarding this, however it may have supported them launching their repair programme.
- Lots of bad press about it as well. The media these days will jump on any clickbait title / blow things out of proportion for a bit of attention. This is no exception.
- Repair program is rather expensive, since everything is glued in Expensive for Apple, which is not of concern to the consumer. Actually adds value for the consumer to get more renewed than expected.
- You even have a tutorial on Apples website on how to blow debris out of the keyboard. Apple have always had instructions for how to clean its products online.

I had multiplle keyboard fails, until I finally gave up and switched. My work suffered because of that idiotic 'inovation'.
Do you really think that I enjoyed making the switch? I'm a Mac user for 12 years now, and I use to for my work. I had to change my habits completely. Keyboard shortcuts aren't the same, lots of small apps/tweaks aren't there on the other OS, my complete workflow changed. Because of that 'great' keyboard. I've had one fail and other issues but again, we're a minority of customers. I've been a Mac user for 10 years and also use it heavily for work. It was a real PITA. If you disliked the keyboard that's fine, and had issues - it happens - but it's not a fundamentally flawed design. Small number of users, as Apple's press release says.

You really think someone would go thru all of that because they woke up on morning and decided to make the switch out of thin air? You had issues in your case, and didn't like the keyboard. That's all you need to justify your own switch. Don't get me wrong, I switched too but the poor design of Windows PC laptops (even 'good ones') were far worse in my personal case to tolerate on the daily.

How large the percentage is, no one actually knows. Except Apple. So you're just guessing, like the most of us.

Apple have stated in their press release "a small number of users". I know, you'll say "well of course Apple will say that, damage control.." but they're a big company, with lots of people criticising and trying to bring them down. They're also a public company that is accountable for its actions and statements to the public. They're audited. Internally checked. If you honestly think they're lying about that, then you might as well Google conspiracy theories with your time and buy into that too. I'll say it again, small number of users with the problem. At LEAST as many users on here / on the whole actually like the keyboard. Have had no issues. What do you say about them? Eh?

For a major multinational company to put such an extensive repair program in place clearly indicates that the issue is far from affecting just a few percent of owners. Situation is very embarrassing for Apple, as once again "they" have engineered themselves back into the corner... Actually, all of Apple's repair programmes over the year are 'extensive' and whilst only affecting a small number of users, that's still a lot of users. However, it does not indicate a clear flaw more than a narrow band of users affected. It's not embarrassing to make mistakes. Everybody does it, even Apple. It's just a group of human people inside. They can make mistakes and in this case, it's admirable that they've went overboard to ensure users are not going to suffer for up to four years.. they don't have to do that. PC manufacturers have been shipping crap for years and abandoning customers when flaws are shipped. It's the popularity and large volume of sales of Apple's notebooks that makes this easy to blow out of proportion for people on here. They're still only a small number of people, like it or not.

Even if the 2019 Butterfly keyboard proves to be reliable the damage to the brand has already been done. Public perception will only diminish as more keyboards fail in time. Apple really needs to move to a rebranded if not new design of keyboard. Nor should the keyboard be so very divisive, it should appeal to the vast majority of users and certainly not prove to be less reliable than any of it's predecessors. The keyboard does appeal to the vast majority of users. Just as many on here love it as hate it. People have always had issues since the move to the bedded keys on the unibody's, same old cry stories on here. Yet, now it's reflected on as a time as being reliable.. At the end of the day, if what you're saying is true and Apple's reputation is screwed and users disliked it so badly, they'd boycott the brand... I don't see sales slumping, do you?

The Butterfly Keyboard was born out of vanity to allow Apple to present a "thinner" chassis to the general public, not improve the typing experience. All I know who used the MBP professionally have dropped the Mac thx to the keyboard, poor thermal management and reduced usability, an audience Apple wont win back easily... Vanity? Get real. It was to make the portable computers more portable, faster to type on for professionals (and the speed is immense with the flatter keys, many users love the speed they can achieve on the flatter keys). Sure, it's a personal preference, but don't pretend they're not good in some ways. Even if you knew 500 people who used the MBP professionally, that'd still be a tiny number of users of the MBP, go figure. The thermal management is unprecedented in the 15" which smokes PC competitors in much beefier envelopes. It's performance for it's form hasn't been matched! Reduced usability, how? It's got incredibly vibrant, bright, high resolution, it's extremely sturdy, long battery life, huge trackback that's also unmatched, great speakers. The thing is a dream to use. Maybe you don't like the keyboard, but don't fool yourself or others into thinking it's a bad product. Apple has lost minimal sales over this, and trust me, when they release a new product even those most affected will give it a go. Because they make damn good notebooks. And you might personally not like certain aspects, but if you think it's a poor product I pity your view on tech. And those who take your advice on here too, as it's incredibly biased and anti-Apple beyond reason.

Apple desperately wants the kudos professional's bring to the MBP, yet only really wants to produce what works for Apple, hence why so few professional's are on the platform... It's not the biggest, most valuable and successful brand on earth today by 'doing what works for Apple', it's what works for the biggest number of people. Sure, people have had select issues (every product has some issues), others just dislike it. But it's a weak case to argue that Apple are a stupid company, doing stupid things and that their profit and popularity/success just comes from thin air... Get real.

Q-6
 
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