Are there any new/refurb Intel MacBooks still in the channel?

[Sill]

My new job requires that I run a 64 bit Windows program on an Intel laptop. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, I'd prefer to run Windows on top of VMWare, Parallels, or Boot Camp. It just has to be Intel, not Apple Silicon.

So are there any Intel MacBooks out in the channel, anywhere? A friend of mine bought a 5 year old iMac from B&H, still new in the factory sealed box, and another friend picked up a 3 year old Mini just a week ago, but I've been searching and can't find any new or Apple refurb Intel MacBook/Pro/Air anywhere. I really don't want to go the eBay / CL route either, due to the risk of fraud.

 

[ilikewhey]

Sorry what do you mean by in the channel.

 

[ixxx69]

My new job requires that I run a 64 bit Windows program on an Intel laptop. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, I'd prefer to run Windows on top of VMWare, Parallels, or Boot Camp. It just has to be Intel, not Apple Silicon.

I can't answer your question, but I think it's worth pointing out that if you're going to use a VM, you can run Windows apps on Apple Silicon, e.g. Parallels. I've been using it for a couple years on an M1 MBA, and it works very well - no issues. However, you cannot do bootcamp on AS. Good luck!

Sorry what do you mean by in the channel.

The retail channel. B&H, Amazon, etc.

 

[Sill]

Sorry what do you mean by in the channel.

Thats an industry term. The "channel" is the distribution pipeline from the factory doors to the final sale, but it usually refers to any stock that hasn't been sold through.

 

[Sill]

I can't answer your question, but I think it's worth pointing out that if you're going to use a VM, you can run Windows apps on Apple Silicon, e.g. Parallels. I've been using it for a couple years on an M1 MBA, and it works very well - no issues. However, you cannot do bootcamp on AS. Good luck!

You would think so, since VMWare provides a hardware abstraction layer that should completely isolate Windows from the ARM instruction set of the Apple Silicon and makes it think it's looking at a CISC processor, right? But the vendor docs - which I had to review and sign off on - specifically mention Apple Silicon won't work for this. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Sill]

From the vendor's site:

Computer requirements:

64 bit (x64) processor running Windows 10 or higher.

*Will not run on Apple Silicon-based Macintosh computers under virtualization. Computers with ARM processors are not supported, even when using x64 emulation.

 

[ilikewhey]

Thats an industry term. The "channel" is the distribution pipeline from the factory doors to the final sale, but it usually refers to any stock that hasn't been sold through.

Refurbished 16 inch MacBook Pro 2.6GHz 6 core Intel Core i7 with Retina display Space Gray - Education - Apple

Apple Store Search Results

www.apple.com

apple do sell refurb but its extremely overpriced, you can get i9 64gb spec for around 1500 used off swappa and ebay though.

 

[ixxx69]

From the vendor's site:

That's too bad. Why they would do that doesn't make any sense. But if they're saying it doesn't work, I guess they would know.

The only apps that I've run into that have issues are the same sort of apps that have problems in any VM, e.g. disk utilities that need to access the hardware directly.

 

[Sill]

This has to work with WiFi and Bluetooth, and also USB to program devices. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Or, I'm thinking that maybe they only tried it with BootCamp and found the result you mentioned, and then never bothered with Parallels or VMWare.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

You would think so, since VMWare provides a hardware abstraction layer that should completely isolate Windows from the ARM instruction set of the Apple Silicon and makes it think it's looking at a CISC processor, right? But the vendor docs - which I had to review and sign off on - specifically mention Apple Silicon won't work for this. It makes no sense to me.

ARM Windows is not equal to X86 Windows (yet... and maybe never). Either the vendor is misinformed, is purposely misleading the public (such as not wanting to support questions from people using emulators on Silicon) or the app is one of those that doesn't work well in ARM Windows.

When people write that ARM Windows works just fine, I would bet they are using programs specially adapted for ARM Windows and/or simple apps that work well in ARM Windows version of Rosetta. We have that with Macs right now: many Apps have been evolved for Silicon and "work just fine." However, some haven't been evolved and may never evolve. Some depending on custom drivers for Intel Macs have already been broken by Silicon... and those may never develop Silicon drivers... so those apps will simply never work again on new Macs.

Reality is that many apps have NOT been adapted for ARM Windows and simply do not function well- if at all- in ARM Windows emulation. When we Mac people are trying to run those programs, we are basically asking Mac to emulate ARM Windows which is then attempting to emulate X86 Windows: emulation on emulation.

Even on our Silicon Mac side, Silicon has now existed for 3 years and was announced before that. There are still MANY apps that have not adapted... and a chunk of those will probably not adapt when Apple kills Rosetta 2. We saw the same with Rosetta 1 (PowerPC TO Intel Macs) where select apps- including a few fairly big ones- did not adapt and thus would no longer work at all once Apple killed Rosetta 1. I maintain a Snow Leopard Mac so that I still have access to Rosetta 1 for a couple of crucial apps that never made the jump.

Best option if you don't find an Intel Mac is for you is to get a Windows PC (laptop) for work and maybe a Mac Mini for personal if you like Apple stuff too. I call this "old fashioned bootcamp." It's the only SURE way of having FULL macOS and FULL Windows compatibility now.

In my own case, I purchased an ultra-wide monitor with multiple inputs, a Mac Mini-like PC and a Mac Studio Mac. Both computers plug into the monitor. The one I chose can split screen to give both computers a chunk of the screen (which- IMO- is better than the old Parallels setup and much better than bootcamp). It also has a built-in hub to share keyboard, mouse, etc. (so just one can control both computers).

If I had to buy a new laptop for "the road," I'd probably buy a PC, because most of the business world runs on PC and odds are high that I'd NEED Windows more than the general WANT for macOS when out there. If I had to do something on a Mac, I'd just have to wait until I can get back home to fire up the Mac left behind, or perhaps try to get started on something for Mac on an iPad until I can get back home.

Else, the true "road warrior" with both kinds of clients probably is back to carrying TWO laptops when on the road. A great benefit casualty in the switch to Silicon is that there are no longer new Macs fully capable of running both platforms in one small box. Many Apple people don't care... but for those of us who NEED Windows... the idea that ARM Windows will cover all bases is simply not true. ARM Windows can cover some bases but not all of them.

If you NEED full Windows compatibility, buy a PC. It's basically the only way (again).

 

[ixxx69]

This has to work with WiFi and Bluetooth, and also USB to program devices. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Parallels can do all those things. Parallels is creating a generic PC hardware layer that the OS runs on. Certain disk utility apps bypass the OS and access the hardware directly - those are the type of apps that typically have issues.

If it's a big enough deal, you can always buy an AS Mac and try it, and if it doesn't work, return it. But it sounds like the vendor has specifically stated it won't, so probably a waste of time.

When people write that ARM Windows works just fine, I would bet they are using programs specially adapted for ARM Windows and/or simple apps that work well in ARM Windows version of Rosetta...

Reality is that many apps have NOT be adapted for ARM Windows and simply do not functional well in ARM Windows emulation. When we Mac people are trying to run those programs we are basically asking or Macs to emulate ARM Windows which is then attempting to emulate X86 Windows: emulation on emulation.

That is not a particularly accurate understanding of how things work. But let's not get off topic. Either the OP's app will work or it won't. The vendor says it won't.

 

[Sill]

Parallels can do all those things. Parallels is creating a generic PC hardware layer that the OS runs on. Certain disk utility apps bypass the OS and access the hardware directly - those are the type of apps that typically have issues.

If it's a big enough deal, you can always buy an AS Mac and try it, and if it doesn't work, return it. But it sounds like the vendor has specifically stated it won't, so probably a waste of time.

I think you've probably nailed it. I've heard it said on numerous forums that the best Windows machine is (was) the Intel Mac. Absolutely top flight hardware that was designed to work from end to end, with Windows running on top of it - natively, in the case of BootCamp. A virtual machine like Parallels or VMWare still uses a HAL, and those would probably have an issue with certain hardware calls that go around the OS layer.

I'm tempted to try it on AS, just as you suggest. My big problem wouldn't just be if it didn't work, its that my newest Mac out of the seven I have is almost six years old, and I'd probably have a tough time returning anything I bought.

 

[ixxx69]

I'm tempted to try it on AS, just as you suggest. My big problem wouldn't just be if it didn't work, its that my newest Mac out of the seven I have is almost six years old, and I'd probably have a tough time returning anything I bought.

🤣

AS Macs are absolutely awesome. I can't recommend enough.

Best of luck!

 

[Rnd-chars]

My new job requires that I run a 64 bit Windows program on an Intel laptop. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, I'd prefer to run Windows on top of VMWare, Parallels, or Boot Camp. It just has to be Intel, not Apple Silicon.

So are there any Intel MacBooks out in the channel, anywhere? A friend of mine bought a 5 year old iMac from B&H, still new in the factory sealed box, and another friend picked up a 3 year old Mini just a week ago, but I've been searching and can't find any new or Apple refurb Intel MacBook/Pro/Air anywhere. I really don't want to go the eBay / CL route either, due to the risk of fraud.

There’s a certified refurbished Intel MacBook Pro on Apple’s site currently. For $3919, you get the following:

Originally released November 2019
Touch Bar with integrated Touch ID sensor
16-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit display with IPS technology; 3072-by-1920 native resolution at 226 pixels per inch with support for millions of colors
64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 onboard memory
8TB SSD1
720p FaceTime HD camera
AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory

That’s likely overkill for your needs and while it’s rare to see them on Apple’s site, you could keep watching it to see if a better fit comes along (assuming you have the time).

 

[Sill]

Refurbished 16 inch MacBook Pro 2.6GHz 6 core Intel Core i7 with Retina display Space Gray - Education - Apple

Apple Store Search Results

www.apple.com

apple do sell refurb but its extremely overpriced, you can get i9 64gb spec for around 1500 used off swappa and ebay though.

Good grief thats a lot of money for a 3 year old laptop.

I wouldn't need the i9. I won't be doing any film or music editing, and I don't play games, so the horsepower would be wasted. Just an i5 would be fine. Those are hovering between $700 and $900 locally, used, but I was hoping for a refurb.

 

[Sill]

That’s likely overkill for your needs and while it’s rare to see them on Apple’s site, you could keep watching it to see if a better fit comes along (assuming you have the time).

Way overkill, but I'll be watching the refurbs as you suggest.

 

[Rnd-chars]

Way overkill, but I'll be watching the refurbs as you suggest.

And just in case it’s an option, you could actually get a 27” Intel IMac *and* a 14” MacBook Pro for less than that Intel MacBook Pro. That may not be an option if you need portability or if the company insists that you only have one machine, but I thought I’d throw that out there just in case.

 

[Yebubbleman]

My new job requires that I run a 64 bit Windows program on an Intel laptop. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, I'd prefer to run Windows on top of VMWare, Parallels, or Boot Camp. It just has to be Intel, not Apple Silicon.

While I am empathetic to your plight, buying an Intel Mac solely to run Windows stuff is about to not be the best idea. For one, Boot Camp doesn't directly support Windows 11; nor has Apple enabled TPM 2.0. And, as things stand, Windows 10 is supported, but we're just two years and change away from its expiration date.

For what it's worth, I do have an Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro set aside for the exact same purposes, but the goal is to eventually limit that to virtualizing older Intel macOS releases and to have Windows virtualization needs handled by Windows machines.

So are there any Intel MacBooks out in the channel, anywhere? A friend of mine bought a 5 year old iMac from B&H, still new in the factory sealed box, and another friend picked up a 3 year old Mini just a week ago, but I've been searching and can't find any new or Apple refurb Intel MacBook/Pro/Air anywhere.

I keep an eye on stock of Intel 16-inch MacBook Pros in Apple's "Apple Certified Refurbished Mac" section of their online store, which seems to fluctuate even two years following discontinuation. Last I checked, I saw two models; one of which was way beefier than anyone would realistically have need for in an Intel Mac and the second one was 100% maxed out on everything except the processor and graphics (so, 8TB SSD, 64GB of RAM; 6-core 9th Gen i7; and 5500 with 8GB VRAM) for about $1000 more.

You will occasionally see the 2020 4-port 13-inch MacBook Pro, but I'm finding that's starting to trail off (incidentally, while being the best Intel 13-inch MacBook Pro that Apple released in terms of performance, it's still a horrible value proposition as one's "absolutely necessary final Intel Mac"). You used to see the (Intel) 2020 2-port 13-inch MacBook Pro on there, but that trailed off a while ago (probably because relative to the other final Intel models of MacBook Pro, that one was only on sale for 6 months compared to the 23 months of the Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro and the 17 months of the 4-port 13-inch).

OWC had a massive 4th of July sale on both Intel 16-inch MacBook Pros and 2020 4-port 13-inch MacBook Pros. Most were used but in good condition, if I recall. Not sure if they still have the latter; but I did check yesterday and they had quite a few of the former.

I would STRONGLY caution against using any Intel MacBook Air. The 2015/17 models are too old and can't go past either macOS Monterey nor Windows 10, and the 2018-2020 models were some of the worst Macs Apple has ever made (underpowered and overheating with laughably flawed thermal solutions).

I really don't want to go the eBay / CL route either, due to the risk of fraud.

There are a lot of buyer protections in eBay that will actually help safeguard against fraud by seller. I know this because, as a seller, I've had a buyer use them to screw me over in the past. It's quite safe to buy something on eBay. Craigslist is obviously less so.

Where buying an Intel Mac, particularly one with the T2 Security Chip (which pretty much any Mac you ought to be considering would have), becomes a real pain (and where you could easily run into the kind of trouble that eBay might be ill-equipped to handle) is with Activation Lock.

Where Activation Lock prevents an iPhone or iPad from making it past the setup assistant with iOS/iPadOS, it's a little different with macOS and Macs.

With Apple Silicon Macs, this pretty much works the same as with iOS and iPadOS; a user pretty much can't wipe the drive and/or complete an Apple Configurator 2 restore without entering the credentials of the user that had "Find my Mac" turned on prior to the wipe. It's also pretty easy for someone to wipe their Apple Silicon Mac and encounter this in the natural process of getting the Mac ready for sale.

However, with Intel Macs with the T2 chip, Activation Lock isn't enforcing macOS in this fashion, but rather bridgeOS - the OS that the T2 chip itself runs. A user could wipe a Mac with Activation Lock enabled several times before even noticing that Activation Lock was still enabled and tied to a previous user.

I have run into this problem enough times when buying T2 Intel Macs that I swear I do not want to buy another T2 Intel Mac used (and also want to limit how many I'm actively using in my arsenal to a single one). I do not feel this way about Apple Silicon Macs and Activation Lock.

Apple does make this problem easier to avoid with Ventura's version of the "'Erase all Content and Settings' Assistant", but that requires that (a) the person wiping the Mac have been running Ventura all along, and (b) has access to the Apple ID credentials that turned on "Find My Mac"/Activation Lock to begin with (which itself is generally not so bad so long as you are buying from the original owner).

So, in short, yeah, definitely be wary of Craigslist, and definitely be wary of going to eBay for any T2 MacBook Pro (which honestly is what you ought to be looking for if you absolutely need your Windows PC to also be an Intel Mac). Though, honestly, I'd give thought to just getting a Windows PC for your Windows needs. Feel free to PM me if you want a list of recommendations that won't suck.

 

[Mactech20]

Apple still sells plenty of 2020 27 inch iMacs

Refurbished Mac - 27-inch - iMac

Save up to 15% on a refurbished iMac. Tested and certified by Apple including a 1-year warranty. Free delivery and returns.

www.apple.com

OWC is also very reputable

New, Used, and Refurbished Macs

Looking for a new or used Mac? OWC can help you look at price points for used Macs so you aren't paying the full price for a brand new Mac.

eshop.macsales.com

 

[tornadowrangler]

I've bought several refurb Macbooks and chromebooks from backmarket.com.

30 Day returns and 1 year warranty!

And the warranty does work. I had the screen go out on a kid's chromebook after 10 months. Sent it back in and got a full refund.

 

[CraigJDuffy]

You absolutely need to just buy a windows machine I’m afraid. No Mac supports windows 11, and windows 10 only has 2 years of support left. Boot camp is not a great experience.

I’d say the Razor laptops or Microsoft Surface Devices (what I’d go for) are the closest in build quality to a MacBook, Dell XPS line is also great.

 

[Sill]

And just in case it’s an option, you could actually get a 27” Intel IMac *and* a 14” MacBook Pro for less than that Intel MacBook Pro. That may not be an option if you need portability or if the company insists that you only have one machine, but I thought I’d throw that out there just in case.

I'm a contractor so the vendor has zero say in how many computers I buy, or of what type, their only concern is as I laid out in my earlier message: 64 bit Windows on an X86-based processor. I like your thought on this, but if I do get another iMac I'd prefer to hold out for the possible 27 inch AS iMac that is supposedly on the way.

 

[Sill]

While I am empathetic to your plight, buying an Intel Mac solely to run Windows stuff is about to not be the best idea. For one, Boot Camp doesn't directly support Windows 11; nor has Apple enabled TPM 2.0. And, as things stand, Windows 10 is supported, but we're just two years and change away from its expiration date.

This use-case is practically vertical for me - a single app plus my web browser of choice - so I don't think the expiration of support is much of a concern for me, but one never knows until one knows. I have an ancient Compaq laptop here from a previous job/hobby, and despite the battery being long dead the machine still runs Windows XP and it still does what I bought it for.

There are a lot of buyer protections in eBay that will actually help safeguard against fraud by seller. I know this because, as a seller, I've had a buyer use them to screw me over in the past. It's quite safe to buy something on eBay. Craigslist is obviously less so.

Where buying an Intel Mac, particularly one with the T2 Security Chip (which pretty much any Mac you ought to be considering would have), becomes a real pain (and where you could easily run into the kind of trouble that eBay might be ill-equipped to handle) is with Activation Lock.

Where Activation Lock prevents an iPhone or iPad from making it past the setup assistant with iOS/iPadOS, it's a little different with macOS and Macs.

With Apple Silicon Macs, this pretty much works the same as with iOS and iPadOS; a user pretty much can't wipe the drive and/or complete an Apple Configurator 2 restore without entering the credentials of the user that had "Find my Mac" turned on prior to the wipe. It's also pretty easy for someone to wipe their Apple Silicon Mac and encounter this in the natural process of getting the Mac ready for sale.

However, with Intel Macs with the T2 chip, Activation Lock isn't enforcing macOS in this fashion, but rather bridgeOS - the OS that the T2 chip itself runs. A user could wipe a Mac with Activation Lock enabled several times before even noticing that Activation Lock was still enabled and tied to a previous user.

Now you have me concerned about stumbling blocks to a successfully using an Intel MacBook Pro if I find one locally on CL or wherever.
I've never used Find My Mac so I'm not familiar with it at all. Could you please explain this a bit more? Like what I should be looking for and how to make sure it's resolved before I make a purchase.

 

[Sill]

You absolutely need to just buy a windows machine I’m afraid. No Mac supports windows 11, and windows 10 only has 2 years of support left. Boot camp is not a great experience.

I’d say the Razor laptops or Microsoft Surface Devices (what I’d go for) are the closest in build quality to a MacBook, Dell XPS line is also great.

Those are Apple money though, or close to it. For my application it would be overkill. And I'd be kicking myself for spending that money when I'm coming up on the point where I need to replace two desktops and an iPad this year.

I found Dell had some of their 11th gen i3 and i5 Inspirons for sale sub-$300 this week, but I was hoping to avoid getting any Windows machine if I could run a Mac instead.

 

[bobcomer]

You would think so, since VMWare provides a hardware abstraction layer that should completely isolate Windows from the ARM instruction set of the Apple Silicon and makes it think it's looking at a CISC processor, right? But the vendor docs - which I had to review and sign off on - specifically mention Apple Silicon won't work for this. It makes no sense to me.

It really makes perfect sense, Windows in a VM on an ARM MAC is ARM based Windows, and while it does have an emulator for x64 in it, it's definitely not 100% effective. You're still running on an ARM processor. The hardware abstraction layer you're talking about isn't the processor, that's virtualized.

As for why this particular software wont run in a Mac, my *guess* is it has some special parts in the networking stack that just don't get along with being in a VM on a Mac. The Mac's networking stack is not very good in comparison. But there may be other reasons in the programming of the app that just doesn't work on ARM Windows in a VM. In my experience with Windows on Arm in a VM, it's about 90% workable. Some things wont, and can't, work on it. I keep a Windows PC and an intel iMac to run Windows stuff at home.