Are they killing the touch bar yet?

[AlexESP]

The TouchBar is just an obvious step - removing static buttons and go to adaptive interfaces depending on the content. For me it’s not a must but something nice to have. For example, controlling volume is much quicker and more precise, in just one gesture, than having to press a button until it reaches one level. It’s really useful in Photoshop too, you can change i.e. the brush size without loosing time.
However, I think it’s clear, and Apple stated it once again yesterday, that there won’t be touch main screens on the Mac.

 

[deeddawg]

The TouchBar is just an obvious step - removing static buttons and go to adaptive interfaces depending on the content. For me it’s not a must but something nice to have.

Unfortunately, it provides a discontinuous user interface for those who don't *always* use the built in keyboard.

Speaking for myself, there's zero advantage to me investing any effort into learning the touchbar interface in different apps when much of the time I'm working in clamshell mode with a Magic Keyboard & Trackpad.

 

[mj_]

Even if you use it to display the F-keys instead of app controls it is still cumbersome and useless to those of us who don't look at their keyboard to type. Tactile feedback is king, and without it you're lost in space. I'm with @casperes1996 on this one. I never take my eyes off the display and I know exactly where every single key on my keyboard is by force of habit aided by tactile feedback. I, for one, am glad that Apple continues to offer the MacBook Air with standard F-keys instead of that abysmal twiddle strip above the keyboard.

 

[ght56]

If they kill the Touch Bar, I think it will probably be done simultaneously on both the 13/14 and 16 rather than just on one but not the other. Arguably it has never achieved the popularity or the impact that Apple intended, so it seems possible it could get axed in the future.

I don't really love it or hate it except for MS PowerPoint, where I love the ability to see next and previous slides. I would see it as having more value if the slider functions it enables could be paired with voice commands to where the voice command would bring up the slider without me having to push other buttons to get to the slider. Even with apps that can customize the Touch Bar, it just doesn't really accelerate my workflow with its current abilities. It doesn't hinder it, but it doesnt expedite it either.

The inability to (at least practically) make an external keyboard with the Touch Bar has probably also hurt it from getting more love and greater focus for further development.

 

[deconstruct60]

Like it or not, it’s just odd. It’s only on the higher end laptops, but if you like it, and also have a iMac or mini you don’t have it. Developers have to build in features for the minority of devices. It seems like an entry level interaction but it’s on the more expensive laptops. It’s just odd.

1. The desktop are the "minority of devices".
If Apple pushed the touch bar to the MBA price level it would more than clearly dominate the unit sales. When Apple moved this down to the MBP 13" two port they probably overtook desktop sales. Somewhere in he presentation I'm pretty sure Apple mentioned that these two laptops are they their best sellers. Once the Touch hit the MBP 13" two port the numbers were not "very small" anymore.

This only gets into the "minority" use case where folks avoid using the laptop keyboard most of the time. Buy the laptop to primarily be a desktop ( clamshell closed and external keyboard).

2. Touch Bar costs more . Twelve keys just like the other alphabet keys below with a relatively minuscule different letters on it isn't any cost different than the other keys. An OLED touch screen isn't in the same cost zone at all.

The Touch Bar drives the costs higher, so it is not surprising that the total system costs are higher than those without.

For a long time Apple used the "Retina , High color gamut" screens to help justify the higher end laptop costs. Touch Bar came along as paying extra for that wore thin (i.e. being covered in general PC market at lower overall system prices )

If Apple put the Touch Bar into a wireless keyboard ... again cost would skyrocket because the huge increase in battery that would be required in addition to the much higher screen (versus generic keycaps ) costs .

 

[lmitch6]

I’m among those thar really like the Touch Bar. My personal MBP is a late 2013 13”, without it of course. I started a new job recently and they gave me a 13” with Touch Bar and its my favorite feature. I wouldn’t want a machine without it now.

 

[jeyf]

oh gods no, the touch bar is a keeper:
its the only keys on my 2017 MBP that work all the time

 

[michelg1970]

I use my MBP often in clamshell mode. Actually I only use the TB when using the MBP as a laptop and then only to adjust volume or screen brightness.

if TB was the way forward, which I hoped as early adopter, why not offer a separate bluetooth "extremely magic" keyboard then with the same? THAT would be awesome, also for users of laptops without the TB and a continued experience for those of us using the laptop in clamshell...

 

[theorist9]

Honestly, if Apple as the designer and manufacture choose to add the Touch Bar, you have to deal with it, or don't buy it. At the end of the day, they can do what they like. As Jobs once said 'if they like, they'll buy it, if they don't, they won't.'

That advice makes sense for a PC buyer. If you don't like one manufacturer's offerings, you have a dozen others to choose from. But that's not the case for most Mac buyers, since most of us are "wedded" to the OS, and for good reason—e.g., I'm significantly more productive in MacOS than in Windows; plus the experience is much nicer.

This is why Mac buyers are particularly passionate about hardware. If Apple takes away a certain functionality we found very useful, we don't have an option to buy from a different manufacturer. I.e., "don't buy it" (which really means switch to a PC) isn't an option for us—or at least not a good one.

Also, that doesn't sound like Steve Jobs—do you have a reference for that?

 

[Saturn007]

Even if you use it to display the F-keys instead of app controls it is still cumbersome and useless to those of us who don't look at their keyboard to type. Tactile feedback is king, and without it you're lost in space. I'm with @casperes1996 on this one. I never take my eyes off the display and I know exactly where every single key on my keyboard is by force of habit aided by tactile feedback. I, for one, am glad that Apple continues to offer the MacBook Air with standard F-keys instead of that abysmal twiddle strip above the keyboard.

I'm impressed! I've been a touch typist for ages, but there's no way I could ever use one of those small function keys without looking at the keyboard!

That's true even though I use them fairly often. Any spatial location memory is weak, in contrast to dock icons and the mouse pointer. Besides which, as the laptop sits in my lap, the function keys are farther away, and, as the symbols on the keys are tiny, it takes a moment to find the right one. I've often hit the wrong one!

I just compared them on a 2015 and 2019 MacBook Air and discovered that their spacing and position differs, too! Which may contribute to the spatial memory problem. The symbols differ, too. The cramped 2019 has its F symbols centered below its icons, while the early series has them offset.

So, I applaud your ability to use them without looking down!

I wonder about the new function key set up, too — keyboard backlight adjustment keys are among those I use...

 

[casperes1996]

You must have amazing long fingers, and legendary typing skills, to tap F2 without looking. Honestly, if Apple as the designer and manufacture choose to add the Touch Bar, you have to deal with it, or don't buy it. At the end of the day, they can do what they like. As Jobs once said 'if they like, they'll buy it, if they don't, they won't.'

I know where every key is. You don't need long fingers, though I do have quite long fingers. But I can also hit any of the keys on the number pad on the extended keyboard without looking, without needing to be able to reach them from standard resting position. - But I can reach F2 just fine from standard resting position

 

[DHagan4755]

Might this be a clue?

Some of the new MacBook Air function keys have different functions

You’ll lose two functions in exchange for three new ones

www.theverge.com

 

[Madonepro]

That advice makes sense for a PC buyer. If you don't like one manufacturer's offerings, you have a dozen others to choose from. But that's not the case for most Mac buyers, since most of us are "wedded" to the OS, and for good reason—e.g., I'm significantly more productive in MacOS than in Windows; plus the experience is much nicer.

This is why Mac buyers are particularly passionate about hardware. If Apple takes away a certain functionality we found very useful, we don't have an option to buy from a different manufacturer. I.e., "don't buy it" (which really means switch to a PC) isn't an option for us—or at least not a good one.

Also, that doesn't sound like Steve Jobs—do you have a reference for that?

Yep, view the interviews he gave that are on YouTube, there are many. It's something he said often.

The majority of people I talk to, outside of these forums, like the Touch Bar, use it frequently. As someone who touch types, and have piano like fingers, I cannot reach the function keys without looking, and also prefer that area being customisable for so many reasons. To force your views upon people, is dogma, the worse of human traits.

 

[theorist9]

The majority of people I talk to, outside of these forums, like the Touch Bar...

I've heard the same claim made here on MacRumors about the butterfly keyboard.

To force your views upon people, is dogma, the worse of human traits.

That's a straw man. Neither I, nor the poster to whom you originally responded, were "forcing [our] views upon people". We were simply giving our views on the Touchbar, and we both did so civilly. And I added some perspective on how hardware options are different for Mac vs. PC buyers.

To misrepresent this as 'forcing our views' is dishonest; and to then go on to suggest we were expressing "the worst of human traits" for offering civil opinions is ridiculous and offensive. It's behavior like yours that worsens discussion on the internet.

Indeed, most of what people do here on these forums is offer opinions. But with your reply, you seem to be trying to shut down opinions you don't like. Thus, if anything, it's you who appears to be attempting to force your views.

Furthermore, consumers offering contrarian opinions is healthy, and Apple has recently come to realize it. For instance, they did an about-face with the current-gen Mac Pro when they got so much negative feedback from the pro community for the limited upgradeability of the previous generation. Indeed, they even recruited a pro workflow team to help them get outside views and thus improve their product. It also led to the redesign of the larger MBP, to give it better thermals.

 

[hashsi99]

I personally find the Touch Bar very useful.

 

[Madonepro]

To misrepresent this as 'forcing our views' is dishonest; and to then go on to suggest we were expressing "the worst of human traits" for offering civil opinions is ridiculous and offensive. It's behavior like yours that worsens discussion on the internet.

And I guess you cannot see it either. But then you can see things others can't, like were I forced an opinion down your throat. Sadly the forums have become an avenue for the generation of 'look at me's', who cannot take criticism.

 

[theorist9]

And I guess you cannot see it either. But then you can see things others can't, like were I forced an opinion down your throat. Sadly the forums have become an avenue for the generation of 'look at me's', who cannot take criticism.

I have a history on MacRumors forums of welcoming correction and criticism when it is honest, civil, and correct. After all, if I have something wrong, I want to know. Yours did not meet any of those criteria.

As just one example, back in July I posted something that wasn't technically correct. A poster replied with a polite and informative correction; I both "liked" his post, and thanked him for the correction:

What makes ARM superior?

Thanks for the correction on that!

forums.macrumors.com

 

[iamBrian]

After all, it's nothing but a gain in functionality. Nothing is lost. If you don't want TouchBar functionality, you can turn on the function keys in System Preferences.

Here's an example of lost functionality, based on my experience, which I will replace "me" with a proverbial "you":

You have 1000 jewelry photos shot on a white background to retouch, and you have to make the background pure white while preserving the natural shadows that were shot. You select a photo in Adobe Bridge and open it in Photoshop. You press the f2 key to perform a keyboard shortcut that automates a handful of steps that prep the image for editing, then you do a manual selection of the product, and then press f3 to perform another series automated tasks that make the background white, adjusts the shadows properly, and organizes all of the layers so you can do final tweaks and color editing. When you finish that, you press the f4 key which saves the file and brings you back to adobe bridge so you can select the next image to open and repeat the process.

With normal tactile f keys, you can do all of those tasks without taking your eye off the screen and you don't have to move your hand at all from a resting position where your left thumb is on the command key. Each image can take 3 to 8 minutes to finish as a professional who has a lot of experience doing these kinds of things.

With a Touch Bar, every time you need to press one of those f keys, you not only have to take your eye off the screen, but you have to lift your hand and move it to the Touch Bar. With a regular keyboard, you can rest your fingers on the f-keys and be ready to press it in a millisecond. However, the Touch Bar treats you resting your finger on a key as a keypress, so you cannot rest your hand on it in anticipation for a key press. You have to physically lift your hand off the keyboard, make sure you're tapping the right button, and then lift your hand and rest it back on the keyboard.

All in all, with the forced moving of eyes and lifting of hands, you add around 5-7 seconds for each image you edit, and after editing 1000 images, you have added around 100 minutes to your workflow which not only takes away time, but also lowers your wage since you typically get a flat rate for the batch of images.

I wish they would give the option for a non-touchbar MBP, but to do so would spell its demise as much as a simple decision to remove the TB.

 

[playtech1]

The Touch Bar is why I'm switching back from Pro to Air with Apple Silicon. I have tried to like it, but absolutely loathe it.

 

[aeharding]

The Touch Bar is why I'm switching back from Pro to Air with Apple Silicon. I have tried to like it, but absolutely loathe it.

same. Really prefer tactile function keys as a dev.

Coming from a 2013 15" mbp for my personal computer, although I've used a touchbar mbp at work for years. Personally the touch bar find it annoying at best.

 

[mrochester]

That advice makes sense for a PC buyer. If you don't like one manufacturer's offerings, you have a dozen others to choose from. But that's not the case for most Mac buyers, since most of us are "wedded" to the OS, and for good reason—e.g., I'm significantly more productive in MacOS than in Windows; plus the experience is much nicer.

This is why Mac buyers are particularly passionate about hardware. If Apple takes away a certain functionality we found very useful, we don't have an option to buy from a different manufacturer. I.e., "don't buy it" (which really means switch to a PC) isn't an option for us—or at least not a good one.

Also, that doesn't sound like Steve Jobs—do you have a reference for that?

“Don’t buy it” can also just mean don’t buy anything and continue using what you have now.