My guess is within 24 months there will be a successor to the 12" MacBook. There is an established market for this but they've had to get the major laptop lines (MBA & MBP) transitioned and cranking before releasing the more minor product lines. I'm also betting to fit the Magic Keyboard they will have do fully redesign the 12" form factor. We'll see....
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MP 7,1 Are you happy with how long the 7.1 Mac Pro has lasted?
- Thread starter rondocap
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I generally agree with you, that I find overall if you had to say where was that thing made, TX seems to be the most fair assessment. I think reasonable people can disagree.
There's nothing to disagree or dispute though... It was made stateside.
From the article:
Apple said:
This is probably why it feels so damn premium, so solidly well-built, and again further evidence for why the pricetag was so (insanely) high.
I'll give you an example how you can dispute it. The way "made in USA" and "assembled in USA" vary by what percentage of the "VALUE" of an item comes from the USA.
So there is a drone maker called Autel. They generally make their drones in Asia, I think. However, they have one drone that has a combo 6k lens and thermal lens. The combo lens costs about $9k. The entire drone sold for around $10k. It is considered 'made in USA' although it's clear the drone is still made in Asia. The 'majority of the value' coming from a lens that is made in the USA makes the 'majority of the value' deemed to be a made in USA product. I think fair minded folks can dispute that and say, hey, the actual flying part is the exact same that is still made in Asia, it's still an Asia made drone.
Similarly with the Mac Pro. WHere is the memory manufactured. How about the storage chips? You get the idea. So some people may say, well yea, it's assembled here, but a lot of the parts are not made here, just assembled here, so it's not really a fully made in USA product.
These assessments can become quite squishy where I think fair minded folks may disagree. That's my view of it. YMMV.
That said, we're kind of agreeing past one another, lol, where I do agree, the Mac Pro is made in USA.
Good point! So maybe I am just falling victim to apple's trap -- that they carefully worded that marketing piece from the above article that I quoted, so that they can justify charging their insane prices!
i.e. "Why are you guys marking up the price so much, don't the components still come from overseas?" (As you pointed out, the RAM in my 7,1 is from Hynix, MPX has AMD chips, the BT/WIFI has Broadcom chips...)
apple (probably): "no no, it's manufactured in the USA, so you can feel safe paying us quadruple" *evil laugh*
Like I said, it can get squishy even when youre trying to be as honest as possible, so it's one where I say fair minds can disagree. But your speculation above could also be the case. It's one where I really couldn't be sure, but considering these machines tend to be parted together from parts far and wide, you do the best you can and maybe the center of gravity falls on where you see final assembly.
*Assembled in USA afaik
That was just showmanship by Apple back in 2019, it's a small-run product so they can take that risk.
Not likely, M series chips are cheaper than getting it 3rd party from Intel. The M Extreme series was just rumor mill stuff, there's nothing concrete about that.
What I am curious about is how they're going to distribute the PCIe lanes for the Mac Pro M series and how they're going to make the RAM expandable, if any.
When they go through processor transitions, like power pc to Intel, now Intel to apple silicon, dropped support often / sometimes occurs more quickly.
Just because the 2017 mbp loses support doesn’t mean it should. It will still be a perfectly capable machine, but Apple wants users to buy a new one.
Many people who complain about the price of the Mac Pro don't understand that it isn't a consumer machine. It's a workstation. Newsflash: Workstations are expensive.
Even if you price out a comparable PC workstation (not a consumer grade desktop again, I'm talking Xeon processors and super fast memory and storage), dollar for dollar it really isn't that expensive.
I honestly think it's a beautiful design, and I hope they keep it around with the Apple Silicon changeover. I'm really hoping they don't kill the Mac Studio for it (I'm biased as I have one).
Even if you price out a comparable PC workstation (not a consumer grade desktop again, I'm talking Xeon processors and super fast memory and storage), dollar for dollar it really isn't that expensive.
I honestly think it's a beautiful design, and I hope they keep it around with the Apple Silicon changeover. I'm really hoping they don't kill the Mac Studio for it (I'm biased as I have one).
Nice setup there.
That's exactly right, people forget that real workstations are expensive. The PC ones also reach the prices of cars - and the top ones are equally well built.
Certain folk miss that point in their multi-year propaganda war against the Mac Pro.
Pretty sure HP Z8 workstations start under $4k. Probably Lenovo's too.
I'm pretty sure the true successor to the ultra-light 12 inch Macbook, in Apple's vision at least, is the iPad series (with folio keyboard). I don't think the 12-inch Macbook will return.
This thread is kind of weird.
1. The latest Mac Pro is always going to be the fastest one Apple has ever made.
2. No one has ever questioned the awesome build quality of the 7,1.
3. It would be hard to argue against its expansion potential.
4. AMD CPUs would have been better, but given Apple's long relationship with Intel and an imminent ISA transition, it's understandable that didn't happen.
5. The only real 'beef' people have had with the 7,1 is the price. PC workstations are also expensive, but a) there's a lot more choice, and b) desktop PCs are typically just as fast and much cheaper. And before anyone says that workstations just can't be compared to consumer machines, bear in mind that no M-series Mac (or Mac Pro GPU) has ECC either.
6. The 7,1 has only been 'long lasting' because Apple hasn't replaced it. By that standard, if Apple cancel the next Mac Pro, the 7,1 would technically 'last' forever, but that's not really meaningful. It can only be judged against current PC workstations / M-series Macs.
7. Switching ISA the year after the (very) long awaited 7,1 came out is main strike against it in terms of being long lived. Their value will fall off a cliff if the 8,1 impresses.
1. The latest Mac Pro is always going to be the fastest one Apple has ever made.
2. No one has ever questioned the awesome build quality of the 7,1.
3. It would be hard to argue against its expansion potential.
4. AMD CPUs would have been better, but given Apple's long relationship with Intel and an imminent ISA transition, it's understandable that didn't happen.
5. The only real 'beef' people have had with the 7,1 is the price. PC workstations are also expensive, but a) there's a lot more choice, and b) desktop PCs are typically just as fast and much cheaper. And before anyone says that workstations just can't be compared to consumer machines, bear in mind that no M-series Mac (or Mac Pro GPU) has ECC either.
6. The 7,1 has only been 'long lasting' because Apple hasn't replaced it. By that standard, if Apple cancel the next Mac Pro, the 7,1 would technically 'last' forever, but that's not really meaningful. It can only be judged against current PC workstations / M-series Macs.
7. Switching ISA the year after the (very) long awaited 7,1 came out is main strike against it in terms of being long lived. Their value will fall off a cliff if the 8,1 impresses.
technically true , but pragmatically not.
The z8 can be equipped with very low end Xeon SP processors. For example Xeon 4108
Intel® Xeon® Silver 4108 Processor (11M Cache, 1.80 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel
Intel® Xeon® Silver 4108 Processor (11M Cache, 1.80 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.
ark.intel.com
A processor that costs approximately $400. Versus $800 . Maxes out at Turbo at 3GHz and base clocked below 2GHz . ( the base clock of 7.1 is 0.5GHz higher than the Turbo of this processor ) And also half the RAM of the floor configurations of the 7,1. Ther are also starippped of GPU skus that float around in the retail supply .
Effectively HP and Lenovo and others allow folks to buying something much closer to a bare-bones workstation ( or bare bones department server ) than a performance workstation .
Apple’s configuration options are narrower. ( wide , but not crazy broad ) . By the time get the configs closer to an Apples to Apples comparison the price gap is no where near as large. Apple is far more focused on selling mostly , if not totally, complete systems than in mostly empty container , bare bones systems . Folks who mostly just want most empty , cheapest box that will boot should look elsewhere than Apple. During the PPC era Apple tried doing that for a while but it has really been well over a decade since they wanted to go there . The MP 2006 was more a fluke of trying to do a rapid transition with mostly a Intel reference design ( and hslip) , not the norm .
apple has drifted farther and farther from the z8 focus over time ( even the 7,1 single socket and W3200 focus and no internal drive brackets by default. )
I used to work at HP in the Workstation division back with the Z800 came out. At the time, the Mac Pro 4,1 was current, and I ran a price comparison. They were within a couple hundred dollars of each other, though you had a few more options with the HP (SAS controllers come to mind). I was very surprised to find out that the Mac Pro was very competitive in that market. Even then, people called it out for being expensive, but it really wasn't. As it turns out, all workstations are pretty expensive.
I think it speaks more to how ready (or not) Apple Silicon actually is. Great for low/medium scale machines, but it's been this long and we still haven't seen them in a Mac Pro context.
As for the Mac Pro itself, I'd love to get one, it's just way beyond my budget and computing needs.
As for the Mac Pro itself, I'd love to get one, it's just way beyond my budget and computing needs.
It's not like Apple releases Mac Pros whenever it would be technologically feasible. They're not on a yearly or otherwise predictable cycle.
It's a niche within a niche, and while it's a very interesting and cool one, it's not their first priority.
It's a friendly thread for the Mac Pro enthusiasts, it doesn't really aim to be logical, I would say. The people who got it to do serious work with would probably be less inclined to post here.
Personally, I'd have loved to buy one, but couldn't justify the cost for my needs. Now I'm putzing around on an M1 Ultra Mac Studio that runs rings around a 28 CPU Mac Pro but doesn't have the design, ECC RAM, extensibility and so on. Oh well, at least it ran my research software really well.
7,1 doubled the entry cost for a Mac Pro, and that six large gets one a ***** configuration...
5,1 & previous, and the Power Mac models; even those were "pricey", but they were the only option for a Mac with expansion slots...
There were those who wanted the mythical xMac, a mini-tower with less expansion than the Power Mac / Mac Pro of the day; but the main want there was for upgrading the GPU down-the-road...
With Apple silicon, unless Apple decides to put out a discrete ASi GPU, there is no need for the xMac; this role could be served by a Mac Studio and a Sonnet chassis...
7,1 could see extended life if Apple supported the 7000-series of AMD GPUs, but end-users would be limited to third-party gamer Radeons and maybe some W-series workstation cards, because I doubt Apple would manufacture MPX variants...?
7,1 could also be extended for new buyers by doing a spec shuffle...?
I am rambling...
5,1 & previous, and the Power Mac models; even those were "pricey", but they were the only option for a Mac with expansion slots...
There were those who wanted the mythical xMac, a mini-tower with less expansion than the Power Mac / Mac Pro of the day; but the main want there was for upgrading the GPU down-the-road...
With Apple silicon, unless Apple decides to put out a discrete ASi GPU, there is no need for the xMac; this role could be served by a Mac Studio and a Sonnet chassis...
7,1 could see extended life if Apple supported the 7000-series of AMD GPUs, but end-users would be limited to third-party gamer Radeons and maybe some W-series workstation cards, because I doubt Apple would manufacture MPX variants...?
7,1 could also be extended for new buyers by doing a spec shuffle...?
- 12-core CPU
- 48GB RAM
- W6600X GPU (8GB GDDR6)
- 1TB SSD
$7799- Now $5999...!!!
I am rambling...
Apple will never drop the price of the 7,1, they will replace it or just get rid of it.
The 2013 Trash Pro never saw a price drop in 6 years. Or even an upgrade.
I have no idea how your sentence fragment would add anything to what I posted or where it would fit, sorry.
It has to be allowed to discuss which amount has to be amortized. It's not like money is no object for professional users.
I agree that clueless whining by non-professionals who compare it to a PC they would build from components is annoying.
It's viable for many tasks and can has slots. If the cost of the base configuration is a major factor for you, buy something else instead (e.g., a Mac Studio or MacBook Pro) that will have higher specs.
I think that as of right now, in April 2023, a base config Mac Pro or anything near it is pointless. I would begin to think about it for workloads that a maxed-out Mac Studio can't handle, but in light of the imminent next Mac Pro, I'd try to wait for that at all cost.
The issue is that it's doubtful a hypothetical refreshed Intel Mac Pro would beat all Apple Silicon Macs in all disciplines.
Wrong on both counts or at least one, depending how you count it:
The 7,1 started with 256 GB SSD on the base config, now it's 512 GB. Link: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/09/mac-pro-now-starts-with-512gb-storage/
It's not technically a price drop, but an upgrade of the base configuration, which arguably amounts to the same thing.
The 6,1 had a price drop in 2017: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/04/mac-pro-gpu-cpu-upgrades-price-drop/
So, you know, I would do some research next time before posting these kinds of things.