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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
I think it’s unlikely that Apple would release an ARM Mac without first giving the developers a lengthy transitional period.

I seem to recall that, with the Intel switch, it was officially announced at WWDC in the summer when a development system (basically a Hackintosh) was made available, and the first MacBook Pro launched early the next year. A similar period for an Intel-ARM switch would make sense - although 12 years on, there should be less processor-specific code lurking around.

The catalyst project is already on. iPadOS can be used on macOS

Catalyst is not a magic tool to let users run existing iOS/iPadOS apps on a Mac. Catalyst is a set of tools and frameworks that let developers more easily produce both iOS and MacOS versions of their App from the same source code. Existing apps need to be adapted by the developer.

Actually, Xcode can run iOS apps on MacOS (by compiling them for x86 and running them in an iOS sandbox, which tries to simulate a touchscreen using a mouse/trackpad) but, without Catalyst, apps designed for iOS aren't very usable with a mouse and just don't 'work' like Mac Apps.
 
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Moonjumper

macrumors 68030
Jun 20, 2009
2,749
2,937
Lincoln, UK
I seem to recall that, with the Intel switch, it was officially announced at WWDC in the summer when a development system (basically a Hackintosh) was made available, and the first MacBook Pro launched early the next year. A similar period for an Intel-ARM switch would make sense - although 12 years on, there should be less processor-specific code lurking around.



Catalyst is not a magic tool to let users run existing iOS/iPadOS apps on a Mac. Catalyst is a set of tools and frameworks that let developers more easily produce both iOS and MacOS versions of their App from the same source code. Existing apps need to be adapted by the developer.

Actually, Xcode can run iOS apps on MacOS (by compiling them for x86 and running them in an iOS sandbox, which tries to simulate a touchscreen using a mouse/trackpad) but, without Catalyst, apps designed for iOS aren't very usable with a mouse and just don't 'work' like Mac Apps.

The Intel-Arm switch should be a lot easier than PPC-Intel. iOS was based on OS X (which became macOS), and both are treated similarly in Xcode, so the OS should already be fairly processor agnostic, and likely completely agnostic since plans to move to Arm started (assuming they have...). For some macOS apps it may be a simple case of compile for Arm, but others may need more. It will depend on how closely the Apple guidelines were followed.

I think Apple will be confident there will be a lot of apps available very quickly (including their own), so may bypass a development system and release an Arm MacBook Air to the public, but keep an Intel version on sale alongside it for a while. There are now so many developers in the Apple ecosystem that it wouldn't be practical to have a development system.

It is likely Apple will do the same as they did prior to the release of tvOS and allow developers to buy the machines for a short period ahead of the public release (https://www.macrumors.com/2015/09/14/apple-tv-developer-kit-lottery/ - the lottery was later expanded).
 

BootLoxes

macrumors 6502a
Apr 15, 2019
749
897
I am hyped for it. As long as apple ports all their core programs then I will buy it day 1. Was saving for the 13" pro but now I think I will wait until summer to see the next version before deciding to get one
 
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Stephen.R

Suspended
Nov 2, 2018
4,356
4,747
Thailand




[automerge]1573328238[/automerge]


The catalyst project is already on. iPadOS can be used on macOS

Oh great thanks by the way did you know the earth is actually flat? I can show you some great “proof”. :rolleyes:
 

nicho

macrumors 601
Feb 15, 2008
4,250
3,250





"Axios today confirmed Bloomberg's reporting"

"So says a report from Bloomberg"

"Bloomberg has shared a new report that says the company could make the change within the next two years."

"The story comes from Bloomberg"
 

2ms

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2002
444
71
Does anyone know what the latest is on ARM Macbooks, or else have an opinion themselves? I see that Photoshop and Lightroom are now basically complete on iOS. I know that Microsoft has had Windows and Office versions for ARM for years (at least privately if not public ally released). The vast majority of software development for Apple products is currently for iOS/ARM. It seems everything is ready to go for the move of Apple’s final holdout (MacOS) to ARM the same as all it’s other products.

Im interested in getting a new laptop, but am reluctant to buy another Intel product if it will be slower than my iPad Pro and half The speed or something of an ARM version coming only relatively soon.

Any news or opinions on when ARM Macs are coming would be greatly appreciated.
 

revmacian

macrumors 68000
Oct 20, 2018
1,745
1,468
USA
Is ARM able to effectively handle the processing power required by the MacBook Pro line? iMac Pro line?
 

revmacian

macrumors 68000
Oct 20, 2018
1,745
1,468
USA
Base on the rumor, they are considering ARM-based chips for both MacBook Pro and iMac series.
I had no idea that ARM was able to effectively handle the processing power required by those machines. I must be way behind the times.
 

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,569
26,273
MacBook Pro is for productivity. Most productivity software is written for x86.

The reviews of Surface Pro X (ARM) vs. Surface Pro 7 (Intel) tell the story. In short, emulation kills performance. Until apps are recompiled for ARM64, performance will lag.
 
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Pro7913

Cancelled
Sep 28, 2019
345
102
I had no idea that ARM was able to effectively handle the processing power required by those machines. I must be way behind the times.

Well, Apple can make both hardware and software while Microsoft cant does that effectively. But at this point, MacBook Air is rumored to be the first ARM-based Mac in 2020. I'm not sure if MBP and iMac can use ARM but at this point, Apple is considering to use it.
 
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JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,569
26,273
I see that Photoshop and Lightroom are now basically complete on iOS.

Photoshop for iOS is far from complete. If you've been following the news, many consider it a disaster.

I know that Microsoft has had Windows and Office versions for ARM for years (at least privately if not public ally released). The vast majority of software development for Apple products is currently for iOS/ARM.

The vast majority of software development for Mac is x86. Most major apps aren't developed for ARM.

Right now, an ARM MacBook would be suitable for a CEO checking emails and using Office. But the vast majority of apps for engineering, media creation, and science would run much slower on an ARM system.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
Photoshop for iOS is far from complete. If you've been following the news, many consider it a disaster.



The vast majority of software development for Mac is x86. Most major apps aren't developed for ARM.

Right now, an ARM MacBook would be suitable for a CEO checking emails and using Office. But the vast majority of apps for engineering, media creation, and science would run much slower on an ARM system.
The vast majority of x86 Mac software is written for Windows and ported to Mac as a secondary priority. Optimisation and stability are never as good under MacOS as under Windows. We see this with everything from games to software like Premiere Pro. The few apps that are Mac first are more than likely written in Apple's own architecture-agnostic Swift. The vast majority of media creation on Mac is done via Apple's own software (e.g. Final Cut Pro X) which is in Apple's gift to make run as well as they like on an ARM Mac. A handful of specially crafted software from Apple and a handful of partners would make an ARM mac useful to a lot of people out the gate. Any emulation would be only for people who use x86 abandonware sparingly (let's not forget regular MacOS updates break compatibility over time if software is no longer updated anyway, and we've just had all legacy 32 bit apps lopped off with Catalina).
 
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boodle

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2004
145
113
There won't be an ARM Mac released in 2020. I believe we're at least 3 years away from that convergence.

Catalina and iPadOS are the first firm steps in that direction but there's still much to accomplish before a macOS laptop on ARM would be viable.
 

chabig

macrumors G4
Sep 6, 2002
11,461
9,328
The vast majority of software development for Mac is x86..
It would be more correct to say that the vast majority of Mac software is “compiled” for X86. It‘s all written in high level languages. All that needs to be done for ARM is a recompile, likely just a checkbox in XCode.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
MacBook Pro is for productivity. Most productivity software is written for x86.

Most modern productivity software is written in high-level languages like C/C++, Objective C and Swift - and re-compiling it for ARM should be reasonably straightforward.

The problem is going to be with big, long-established apps - that may still have legacy X86-specific code (especially. if they have hard-coded support for various Intel multimedia/SIMD-type features rather than calling Apple frameworks). Bear in mind, though, all of those already moved from PPC to Intel in 2006, and have just had to be updated to 64bit, so its anybody's guess what the state of their code is.


Photoshop for iOS is far from complete.

Adobe CS is going to be one of the biggest hurdles for an ARM Mac... However, its hard to know how much of the problems are with ARM and how much its iOS and iOS hardware - even the A12/13-based devices are a bit marginal on RAM etc. for Adobe stuff. Are Apple giving Adobe a hall pass on iOS store rules? If not, they'll have to be re-writing a lot of stuff to use official Apple frameworks like Metal and Acceleration kit.

But the vast majority of apps for engineering, media creation, and science would run much slower on an ARM system.

Well, Apple will presumably come up with native versions of FCPX and Logic, or they'll look rather silly. Other stuff depends entirely on the state of the codebase and (frankly) whether the developers came from a Windows ("works for me") or a Unix ("but will it run on a redstone Turing machine in Minecraft?") background (I exaggerate somewhat, but most of the major Linux-y open source packages are already running on ARM64).

and we've just had all legacy 32 bit apps lopped off with Catalina

...which is a good point - that will have cleared out a lot of "dead wood", and ensured that one major part of making stuff ARM compatible -= ensuring it is 64-bit clean - has already been done.

Bottom line is - you're probably not going to want one of these as your main machine on day 1, and it would make sense for Apple to make a development system available for six months or so before the real product launch (as they did with the Intel transition in 2006). However, Apple have twice successfully changed processor architecture (68k to PPC, PPC to Intel - and that's not counting 6502 to 68k) and those were back in the days when apps were far more likely to contain DIY hardware drivers or lovingly hand-crafted assembly.
 

2ms

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2002
444
71
unless I’m somehow mistaken, it’s clearly only a matter of time. Apple processor development is leaps and bounds ahead of x86 processor development. Intel processors are poor on energy, expensive as hell, and getting better only at a snail’s pace. Furthermore, now that Apple makes their own processors, they no longer need to plan their roadmap according to Intel’s schedule.

Given that it’s only a matter of time, I don’t really see why later rather than ASAP. A doubled-up iPad processor would clearly outperform any Intel processor and be much cheaper and energy/battery efficient. How many old applications does the average consumer really use? I’d say none, really. It seems to me that many more developers develop for ARM these days than Intel.
[automerge]1573602457[/automerge]
Photoshop for iOS is far from complete. If you've been following the news, many consider it a disaster.



The vast majority of software development for Mac is x86. Most major apps aren't developed for ARM.

Right now, an ARM MacBook would be suitable for a CEO checking emails and using Office. But the vast majority of apps for engineering, media creation, and science would run much slower on an ARM system.

I think they’d run faster. My iPad is much faster than my MacBook Pro. Engineering and science software isn’t even really available on x86 Mac. Nothing lost there. Apple can flip their media creation apps to ARM at the drop of a hat. Adobe reasonably quickly too. If Adobe doesn’t, then any number of competitors will anyway. The days of Adobe being the only game in town are over outside a small group of professionals. Perhaps Apple could offer both for a transitional period so as not to leave the last small group out to dry.
 
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Lobwedgephil

macrumors 603
Apr 7, 2012
5,792
4,757
Read up on this thread with the Surface X and you can see some of the issues. It will happen, maybe soon with the MacBook or Air, but it is a long way away from being fully ready for a MacBook Pro.

 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
Read up on this thread with the Surface X and you can see some of the issues.

Basic Surface X issues:
(a) Price - but then the MS Surface range is the only line of computers known to humankind priced to make Apple kit look like the economy option. Of course, MS makes most of its money from other people's computers and I think they've always seen their own hardware as a sort of 'reference platform' for Windows as much as a viable consumer product. Of course, the high price leads to unrealistic expectations - the surface X is MacBook Air performance at MacBook Pro prices.

(b) Sounds like MS have stuffed up battery life. That could be a form-over-function mistake - using ARM's power consumption edge to make things smaller and lighter by shrinking the battery rather than extending battery life.

(c) App compatibility. Microsoft have stuffed up on ARM-native application availability - the Surface X really isn't ready for the big time if (as the Verge review suggests) its relying on emulation for Office and Chrome (including the forthcoming Chromium/Edge). Chrom(ium) is already available for ARM64 Linux and it sounds like its ready for ARM Windows but for some political spat between Google and MS.

x86 emulation on Windows sounds like its 32-bit only - but that kinda makes sense for Windows, which has a far bigger issue with legacy "abandonware" than Apple (including vast amounts of in-house corporate software) most of which will be 32-bit. Also, thanks to the Windows "legacy" that emulation layer is probably there for the ages - not a transitional solution that can be dumped after a couple of years (like 68K and PPC emulation on the Mac). ISTR there may be IP issues over x86 emulation, as opposed to some technical limitation of ARM, which could be a problem for Apple.

Apple have two jobs to do if they decide to go ARM:
(1) Get the form/function balance right when "spending" the ARM power dividend. Oh dear.

(2) don't stuff up on ARM-native application availability. It would make sense to launch a "public" developer system for 6 months or so before the first consumer product (as they did with Intel), because you really don't want reviewers commenting on the system on day zero when everything is emulated. (If Apple aren't already working under NDA with key developers like Adobe and MS then forget the whole thing).

Its important to remember that Apple isn't Microsoft/Wintel - Apple have successfully made a series of seismic platform changes: 6502/Apple II OS to 68k/MacOS classic, 68k to PPC, Classic MacOS to Unix/OS X, PPC to Intel, 32 to 16 bit, each time with thetransition done and dusted in a few years. In the same time, MS/Windows has been a very slow evolution from DOS to Win3/9x (still with 16-bit DOS at their core) to the modern 32/64-bit Windows NT-descended OS, always clinging to backwards compatibility, always x86-based (WinNT was briefly supported on other CPUs but these were quickly abandoned).

The Surface X is MS's second attempt at Windows on ARM. (Windows RT sank without trace). I'm not sure if anybody (from MS down, through all those Windows app developers to corporate users) really thinks it will succeed - partly because MS simply cannot abandon the legacy x86 market in the foreseeable future (they're barely succeeding in stamping out Windows XP or even 16-bit) and also because their actual hardware division is relatively small beer, even compared to Apple (who are usually ~ #4 behind Lenovo, HP and Dell on a list in which MS doesn't even show up). So developers are hardly going to rush in to porting their Windows apps to ARM.

On the other hand, when Jobs stood up in 2005 and said they'd be completely switching from PPC to Intel by the end of 2007, they were done by mid-2006 and PPC support was dumped from MacOS by mid 2009. So if Tim Cook stands up next June and says that Apple will be completely transitioning to ARM by 2022 then you'd better believe it - and all Apple developers will know that they are on notice to fix their software.

That isn't because Apple is 123% more magical than Microsoft - its that the customer and developer base is different and Apple always has been prepared and able to tell them that they're going to change.
 

2ms

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2002
444
71
It also helps that Apple ARM processors are light years ahead of anyone else. The performance:energy consumption ratio is so high that I wouldn’t be surprised if an ARM platform with same Wattage outperformed Intel competition even in emulation mode. It‘s also important to remember that ARM development (I.e., iOS) is the vast majority of software development for Apple right now. Mac development is tiny compared to iOS development. So moving Mac to ARM might make things EASiER for app development, not harder.
 

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,569
26,273
It would be more correct to say that the vast majority of Mac software is “compiled” for X86. It‘s all written in high level languages. All that needs to be done for ARM is a recompile, likely just a checkbox in XCode.

Yes, that's correct - perhaps I meant to say "optimized" for x86.

Applications have gone through years, if not decades of hand tuning for x86, whether it's SSE2 or the memory architecture.

Recompiled code may run, but horribly. If it were as simple as a checkbox, Apple would have moved to ARM years ago.

The lack of an ARM Mac suggests the performance penalty for most software (recompiled for ARM64 or straight up emulated) is still huge.
 

littlepud

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2012
470
333
Yes, that's correct - perhaps I meant to say "optimized" for x86.

Applications have gone through years, if not decades of hand tuning for x86, whether it's SSE2 or the memory architecture.

Recompiled code may run, but horribly. If it were as simple as a checkbox, Apple would have moved to ARM years ago.

The lack of an ARM Mac suggests the performance penalty for most software (recompiled for ARM64 or straight up emulated) is still huge.

Is hand-tuning in-line assembly still a thing these days?
 
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