ARM based MacBook Pro discussion [merged]

[Maximara]

And with that, microsoft will not change at all due to they want full backwards compatability with old apps that were made for windows 95 to windows 10. If Microsoft changed there coding and the whole OS than people would complain constantly oh my old game won't work anymore or this old program. Apple has got microsoft by the horns.

Well Microsoft had much this problem with Windows 7 where they had to have Windows XP effectively running in emulation because a lot of programmers decided writing directly to the hardware was a great idea. As I pointed out a while ago Windows users are in such a keep it going mode that they write pieces like How to Enable 16-bit Application Support in Windows 10 Wrap your head around that.

I disagree that "microsoft will not change at all". They have to otherwise they will join other companies that had that mindset like Blockbuster, Sears, Kmart, and many others.

Games are going more and more to consoles with the occasional port to Windows (Walk into any Walmart and compare the PC software selection to the console one and you will see what I mean) and various software makers are trying to go to the live service model. In fact is is that very model that will make much of the whole "my old game won't work anymore or this old program" moot - one will not be running it on the computer but rather the computer will effectively be akin to the dumb terminal mainframe model seen back in the day.

 

[RobbieTT]

And with that, microsoft will not change at all due to they want full backwards compatability with old apps that were made for windows 95 to windows 10. If Microsoft changed there coding and the whole OS than people would complain constantly oh my old game won't work anymore or this old program. Apple has got microsoft by the horns.

I'm not sure I agree with you. For sure Microsoft got itself stuck in a muddle for over a decade but in more recent times it has at least realised it and made efforts to change, albeit with mixed results.

Microsoft's efforts with ARM may have produced a lacklustre package of hardware and software but they did at least try to be more agile. Their Office suite on non-PC systems has been a lot more successful in very recent times and their efforts to bring the Office suite to Apple Silicon has been both timely and effective.

Early days for MS on Apple Silicon but it looks pretty good to date. If the power and efficiency of Apple Silicon drags a more significant % market share away from the PC crowd it looks like MS will be there to support its usual customer base.

Interesting times for sure.

 

[lJoSquaredl]

That's already possible, though:

Apple Trade In

Trade in your iPhone, iPad, Mac, Watch, or any other device for credit toward a new one, or recycle it responsibly for free with Apple Trade In.

www.apple.com

I mean... Apple's prices for trade-in aren't great (unless your device is years old), but what you're suggesting has already been there for a while.

They aren't bad imo. I can get $700 for mine thru trade in right now, $790 thru Gazelle I think. and $870 thru sellyourmac as well. Most of the similar models I saw on eBay were about that same price with no bids on them, some selling for cheaper, and frankly if I can remove any of the stress of returns or crazy buyers trying to keep it while not giving me the money or any other schemes (got held up by one recently) then the small hit to the trade in is worth imo.

 

[Quantum Kernel]

I'm hoping to buy one of the rumoured upcoming 16" M1X MacBook Pros.

Can I run a x86 Windows VM via rosetta or do Windows VMs have to run Windows for ARM?

How is the performance? I'm not gaming - just some business systems dev work and a few Windows only programs.

 

[Macbookprodude]

NO ! You will need to use special version of VMware fusion and or parallels desktop. Like PowerPC, bootcamp is not supported on M1 Macs and thus you will need emulator to run Windows. Just like PPC used virtual PC to install Windows, so you need to with the M1. Bootcamp will never be supported since ARM and X86 are different.

 

[mguzzi]

I'm hoping to buy one of the rumoured upcoming 16" M1X MacBook Pros.

Can I run a x86 Windows VM via rosetta or do Windows VMs have to run Windows for ARM?

How is the performance? I'm not gaming - just some business systems dev work and a few Windows only programs.

Windows is not currently supported on the M1 MacBooks. They don’t have boot camp and VMWare and Parallel’s don’t currently run Windows on the M1.

 

[Macbookprodude]

Whoa.. now that I didn’t know ! It’s like PowerPC all over again, except we had Virtual PC Mac.. I wonder if Virtualbox will work on M1 ? Apple really screwed themselves this time !

 

[Maximara]

Windows is not currently supported on the M1 MacBooks. They don’t have boot camp and VMWare and Parallel’s don’t currently run Windows on the M1.

Whoa.. now that I didn’t know ! It’s like PowerPC all over again, except we had Virtual PC Mac.. I wonder if Virtualbox will work on M1 ? Apple really screwed themselves this time !

While you can't boot into Windows on the M1 the M1 is so powerful (or the ARM chip Microsoft uses is so weak) that "Apple’s M1 Macs are apparently able to run Windows 10 almost twice as fast as Microsoft's own top-of-the-range hardware. - Windows on Apple M1 still outperforms Microsoft’s own hardware despite serious handicap

This is a totally different situation than trying to simulate an x86 on a PowerPC was as the PowerPC just wasn't fast enough to make the simulation worth while. By contrast, the M1 kicks butt - it is on par with far more expensive x86 CPUs (Intel has to cherry pick the data even then to compete) and it performs better then other ARM chips in the same price bracket.

 

[Macbookprodude]

While you can't boot into Windows on the M1 the M1 is so powerful (or the ARM chip Microsoft uses is so weak) that "Apple’s M1 Macs are apparently able to run Windows 10 almost twice as fast as Microsoft's own top-of-the-range hardware. - Windows on Apple M1 still outperforms Microsoft’s own hardware despite serious handicap

This is a totally different situation than trying to simulate an x86 on a PowerPC was as the PowerPC just wasn't fast enough to make the simulation worth while. By contrast, the M1 kicks butt - it is on par with far more expensive x86 CPUs (Intel has to cherry pick the data even then to compete) and it performs better then other ARM chips in the same price bracket.

So, your statement above just proved M1 DOES support running windows 10. As of right now, anything Apple says is empty air until I see it for myself. I hate Intel also.. I have a strong love for PowerPC as that is what made the Mac a real mac as far as i am concerned.. BUT M1 does seem to follow that same tradition. WE WILL SEE, I will wait.. M1 selections now are not in my best interest. 13 inch screen gives me headaches and on my eyes.. I have a 2015 MacBook Pro dual graphics - I may trade that up for a 15 inch M1 or M2.. to me, RISC IS THE BEST.

 

[Macbookprodude]

https://www.pcworld.com/article/359...not-faster-than-98-percent-of-pc-laptops.html - PROOF M1 IS NOTHING SPECIAL.. same BS as during the mHZ MYTH.

Intel benchmarks say Apple’s M1 isn’t faster. Let’s reality-check the claims

Intel just clapped back with a carefully crafted takedown of Apple's Arm-based M1 chip. Let's review the claims, one by one.

www.pcworld.com

Apple's New M1 SoC Looks Great, Is Not Faster Than 98 Percent of PC Laptops - ExtremeTech

Apple's new M1 silicon really looks amazing, but it isn't faster than 98 percent of the PCs sold last year, despite what the company claims.

www.extremetech.com

So, the proof is above and this is enough for me to state I will stay with my 2015 MacBook Pro which Apple doesn't track me through its non-existent T2.

 

[Ploki]

https://www.pcworld.com/article/359...not-faster-than-98-percent-of-pc-laptops.html - PROOF M1 IS NOTHING SPECIAL.. same BS as during the mHZ MYTH.

Intel benchmarks say Apple’s M1 isn’t faster. Let’s reality-check the claims

Intel just clapped back with a carefully crafted takedown of Apple's Arm-based M1 chip. Let's review the claims, one by one.

www.pcworld.com

Apple's New M1 SoC Looks Great, Is Not Faster Than 98 Percent of PC Laptops - ExtremeTech

Apple's new M1 silicon really looks amazing, but it isn't faster than 98 percent of the PCs sold last year, despite what the company claims.

www.extremetech.com

So, the proof is above and this is enough for me to state I will stay with my 2015 MacBook Pro which Apple doesn't track me through its non-existent T2.

you're silly M1 is insanely good.

 

[mguzzi]

If your planning on primarily running Windows, Windows Server, and other OS’s and you need a new Mac right now then you may just want to purchase the 16 i9 and spec it out. The resale in a year or two will still be decent.

 

[kitenski]

Windows can be run on M1 macs now...

Parallels tech preview for M1 | MacRumors Forums

 

[leman]

Whoa.. now that I didn’t know ! It’s like PowerPC all over again, except we had Virtual PC Mac.. I wonder if Virtualbox will work on M1 ? Apple really screwed themselves this time !

Parallels has a beta version that supports Windows 10 ARM on M1 machines. It won't be able to run all the Windows software, but it's good enough for occasional leaky Windows app you might need.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/359...not-faster-than-98-percent-of-pc-laptops.html - PROOF M1 IS NOTHING SPECIAL.. same BS as during the mHZ MYTH.

Third-party tests convincingly show that Apple Silicon is years ahead of any competition. My M1 machine is faster on data analysis and developer workflows than my i9 16" inch. Intel benchmark results are dubious, manipulative and should not be trusted. Their marketing campaign is a joke and they have been called out for it by the media.

If your planning on primarily running Windows, Windows Server, and other OS’s and you need a new Mac right now then you may just want to purchase the 16 i9 and spec it out. The resale in a year or two will still be decent.

If one is planning on running Windows, it's probably a good idea to get a Windows machine. A x86 Mac is simply not a good purchase at this point (unless your work relies on it).

 

[09872738]

https://www.pcworld.com/article/359...not-faster-than-98-percent-of-pc-laptops.html - PROOF M1 IS NOTHING SPECIAL.. same BS as during the mHZ MYTH.

So, the proof is above and this is enough for me to state I will stay with my 2015 MacBook Pro which Apple doesn't track me through its non-existent T2.

This is not proof at all. Its opinion at best. And honestly, they are way off. M1 really is that good. There may be drawbacks (No x86_64 for those who need it), no replaceable RAM/SSD, no discrete graphics (yet) - the integrated GPU still beats Intel‘s by miles.

As a CPU the M1 is pretty fast while featuring unrivalled power efficiency. Beats any Intel by an order of magnitude.

 

[mguzzi]

Most recent article I could find says it’s not fully supported yet. It will run Windows for ARM and some applications may not work. Has this changed?

Windows 10 on M1 Macs: What you can do (virtualization, sorta) and can’t (Boot Camp)

Running Windows 10 for ARM on an M1 Mac is workable via virtualization. There's no retail version of the OS available currently, only a free preview, but the indicators that there may be seem positive.

www.macworld.com

 

[leman]

Most recent article I could find says it’s not fully supported yet. It will run Windows for ARM and some applications may not work. Has this changed?

Well, there is no official customer "Windows on ARM" — Microsoft only offers early preview versions that are supposed to be used on ARM-based Windows laptops. The hope is that Microsoft will offer a standalone ARM Windows license at some point. I suppose Parallels has the same hope or their business is down the drain.

If an application does not work, that will most likely be a limitation of Windows itself. It's emulation of x86 software is far from perfect. But legacy stuff (including older games) seem to run very well.

 

[cool11]

Windows can be run on M1 macs now...

Parallels tech preview for M1 | MacRumors Forums

We need 'windows for x86', not 'windows for arm'.
Is this the usual classic windows we all know, running with parallels in new apple silicon cpu?

 

[pshufd]

If you need to run Windows 10 Intel or Windows 10 Intel programs, then your best bet is a Windows PC. Yes, you could buy an Intel Mac but you may run into the situation where Apple no longer provides Boot Camp drivers for your system down the road for a new version of Windows. It's not a big deal if it's just a short-term situation.

I think that Apple Silicon is going well but I want my daily driver to be able to run my most important programs; and then I will figure out how to run the stuff that's nice to have. Right now, my daily driver desktop is a custom PC and I VNC into a Late 2009 iMac to run my macOS programs. I have a project that requires a newer operating system coming up and I will VNC into my 2015 MacBook Pro for that project.

 

[leman]

We need 'windows for x86', not 'windows for arm'.

If you need windows for x86, your best bet is sticking with a x86 PC.

Is this the usual classic windows we all know, running with parallels in new apple silicon cpu?

Its Windows 10 ARM build. It's the "usual classic Windows we all know" but running natively on ARM arhitecture. It can run x86 Windows binaries, but not all apps are compatible.

 

[Macbookprodude]

The above 3 comments mirror those during the PowerPC era about running Windows - get a Windows PC.. yep, Apple screwed themselves big this time and as for Paralells and VMware fusion running Windows in emulation - don’t hold your breath - Apple did this to ALIENATE Windows from running in its pathetic closed source machines.. this is the Apple I don’t like. I liked Apple of the 2000s better.

 

[Macbookprodude]

you're silly M1 is insanely good.

Your interpretation and opinion.. but I think they are dead on.. then again, I don’t support Apple after Jobs died.. M1 may have greatness, but according to those reports I think they are doing the same s*** during the MHz myth days. Only time will tell and so far Apple is playing the alienation game by not allowing other OS’s to run on their pathetic closed hardware.

 

[leman]

Your interpretation and opinion.. but I think they are dead on.. then again, I don’t support Apple after Jobs died.. M1 may have greatness, but according to those reports I think they are doing the same s*** during the MHz myth days. Only time will tell and so far Apple is playing the alienation game by not allowing other OS’s to run on their pathetic closed hardware.

What are you even talking about. Go look at benchmarks and tests from reliable third party (Anadtech, notebookcheck). The reports you quote are either extreme opinion pieces that do not quote any evidence whatsoever (like the first PCWorld article) or are part of new Intel marketing campaign that uses extreme levels of cherry picking and manipulation to show their own product as superior. And even then their results are full of contradictions — they claim for example that for a specific browser test their own CPU is faster than M1 where all other reviewers found it to be the exact opposite.

I own both an i9 16" MBP and an M1 13" MBP and in tasks I care about (software development, data analysis, statistical simulation), M1 is clearly faster despite consuming 1/4 of power and having half the CPU cores.

 

[09872738]

Only time will tell and so far Apple is playing the alienation game by not allowing other OS’s to run on their pathetic closed hardware.

A lot of incorrect statements.
1 - Apple Silicon really is way ahead. Its not comparable to the PPC days, for back then Apple did rely on manufacturers, be it IBM, Freescale or Intel. Today, Apple is a) a much larger company and b) designing its processors in house. As it seems they assembled the best design team out there right now

2 - Simply not correct that Apple doesn‘t allow other OSs. As Craig Federighi said, its up to Microsoft (or the Linux guys I might add) to create a version for Apple Silicon. Apple may not be supportive by providing drivers and/or documentation, but that is a different issue. Apple does not actively (or passively) prevent other OSs to boot or being installed

 

[Macbookprodude]

What are you even talking about. Go look at benchmarks and tests from reliable third party (Anadtech, notebookcheck). The reports you quote are either extreme opinion pieces that do not quote any evidence whatsoever (like the first PCWorld article) or are part of new Intel marketing campaign that uses extreme levels of cherry picking and manipulation to show their own product as superior. And even then their results are full of contradictions — they claim for example that for a specific browser test their own CPU is faster than M1 where all other reviewers found it to be the exact opposite.

I own both an i9 16" MBP and an M1 13" MBP and in tasks I care about (software development, data analysis, statistical simulation), M1 is clearly faster despite consuming 1/4 of power and having half the CPU cores.

Don’t get me wrong - I love RISC whether PowerPC(I run a few of those for file serving) and ARM(13 inch is bad on my eyes). I do hate Intel though.. but I want to get more proof that M1 is as fast as they say it is. I am a pro-RISC user, not CISC.