Exactly. There is one thing about all this ARM story that everyone seems to be ignoring. ARM means more opportunities for new players to enter the CPU market. Consumer PCs have been dominated by x86, a competition between two companies. It is visually impossible for a new startup to obtain a x86 architectural license, not to mention that developing an x86 CPU from scratch is an impossible nightmare. An ARM license is much easier to get, and ARM even gives you some CPU designs to start you out. Just look at the server and HPC market, where compatibility with existing binary software is less important — new chip companies are popping up left and right. ARM means more competition and thus better products for the users. So far, we don't see many customer-level designs (although ARM has the X1), but that is simply because there is no software to run on it and thus no market. But the post-x86 push is coming, and Apple is going to be a catalyst. Microsoft is very well aware of that and they are trying to make sure they the are ready for it. Funnily enough, should Apple and Microsoft come to an agreement over the new Bootcamp, the new Macs might very well end up being the best laptops to run Windows on for a while.
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ARM MacBook Pro I don’t want an Overpriced Netbook.
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Exactly. There is one thing about all this ARM story that everyone seems to be ignoring. ARM means more opportunities for new players to enter the CPU market. Consumer PCs have been dominated by x86, a competition between two companies. It is visually impossible for a new startup to obtain a x86 architectural license, not to mention that developing an x86 CPU from scratch is an impossible nightmare. An ARM license is much easier to get, and ARM even gives you some CPU designs to start you out. Just look at the server and HPC market, where compatibility with existing binary software is less important — new chip companies are popping up left and right. ARM means more competition and thus better products for the users. So far, we don't see many customer-level designs (although ARM has the X1), but that is simply because there is no software to run on it and thus no market. But the post-x86 push is coming, and Apple is going to be a catalyst. Microsoft is very well aware of that and they are trying to make sure they the are ready for it. Funnily enough, should Apple and Microsoft come to an agreement over the new Bootcamp, the new Macs might very well end up being the best laptops to run Windows on for a while.
Having had a chance to try out the Galaxy Book S, the Lenovo C630, and the Surface Pro X, I can attest to the Surface easily being the best of the bunch although the DTK outperforms all of them. However, they still need some third-party developers to get on board and port their apps to ARM in order to make it truly a viable alternative to x86. Apple making that switch might be the catalyst those developers need to start building for ARM.
I think the answer would be "Tough.. your gonna get one" My assumption, is if Apple harps up so much about performance, as they have done, then they will have to prove it.. sooner than later. And since benchmarks were aready out anyway from developers... it should stand a fairly good chance.
How can you turn a 'potential' blind eye of 15-20 hours battery life if there is no added value in getting this ?
There has to be more of a benefit to users to get it than just battery alone, and a reducton in performance s gonna put people off... Who wants a "slower" mac?? ..hands up .
How can you turn a 'potential' blind eye of 15-20 hours battery life if there is no added value in getting this ?
There has to be more of a benefit to users to get it than just battery alone, and a reducton in performance s gonna put people off... Who wants a "slower" mac?? ..hands up .
You're not understanding me. There are many ARM-compatible operating systems today, including Windows, and many open-source operating systems. It is most certainly possible for Apple to create a similar solution. Even Windows on ARM has x86 emulation now, which means it can run regular Windows apps to some degree, which would make it a very useful option for people who still need to run it.
Now, ARM is nothing like x86 in terms of hardware. There is nothing similar to the "IBM-compatible PC" in the ARM world, which is why OS images generally have to be customized for the hardware it's intended for. This might change, but today it is a little complicated to support multiple ARM platforms.
We'll see what the future brings.
Desktops should always be about speed. Battery, heat etc are secondary there and for me a desktop is the go to machine to get some of my higher level work done. No laptop in the world cuts it.
However, laptops are different, and people buy them for many various reasons. Speed it important, but I also see it as a compromise accross portability, experience, battery life, screen quality etc.
It is as ever a compromised device, whereas on a desktop you don't need to compromise as much.
Yes, some customers would baulk at a slower MBP for example, and some will rejoice if it meets other requirements.
Personally I would like to see a better battery, less fan noise, and a lighter weight with a 14" high quality screen. If that meant a 10% reduction in CPU to gain all sorts of benefits I would buy it.
Obviously though I would like to see all the benefits plus an increase in speed - who wouldn't.
But will increase in speed compromise other areas. We will just have to wait and see, as if Apple can get all the balance right then they are onto a real winner.
That's an awfully broad generalization there regarding laptops. My MSI laptop (which is a gaming laptop) has more than enough speed for anything you can throw at it, and it actually weighs less than the 16" MBP (4.19 lbs for the MSI, 4.3 lbs. for the MBP). The laptop also has a 144Hz monitor with great color gamut and brightness, GeForce 1660ti (6GB GDDR5), 16GB DDR4, and dual M.2 SSDs. The gaming sector of the PC market is the fastest growing, and it's partly because many people need the better processor and dedicated videocard that those systems ship with.
I'm really hoping for this reality. I don't think Microsoft has that much of an investment in the Surface line to not attempt this (or at least I hope not).
If you want an 14" mbp, you will be happy thats for sure...since we are talking about the smaller MBP , for apple is very very easy to make it far better in cpu/igpu/battery life/heat than the intel counterpart
The only question i have is..(even those who use the gpu hard) if for the bigger MBP or imacs etc that until now used to have (or still has) an dGPU that apple will come with an custom made gpu...bec the dev-kit mac mini A12Z already surpass the today specs macs...but dont believe those who said that the iGpu from that A12Z is better than the current dGpu amd like 5500 or 5700 series, those whos said that is better, clearly dont use the Gpu from that mac mini
Based on my usage i would say the iGpu that A12z (8core graphics ) is around todays amd 5300M or 5500M
So...thats why Apple needs an custom made Gpu for the macs that used to have (still have) an dGpu like 16" mbp or the imacs (especially the 27" )
One of the funniest posts I have read in years.
Thats a broad generalisation there regarding your opinion that your MSI laptop is more than fast enough for what I would use a desktop for.
Maybe you should tell all those guys who have bought a Mac Pro they wasted their money, as your MSI laptop is more than enough.
And regarding bootcamp....no, everything suggest that windows 10 arm will be license starting around November , so you will have virtualisation , like linux and so on..yes bootcamp vs VM x86 windows 10 made and still makes sense...but for arm win10 version...not so much
Right. Maybe we could get rid of our servers on the rack, and just toss this bad boy up on a shelf.
Consumers are funny.
Most third party apps will be x86 translated into ARM code so you need 2-3x speedup to even approach reasonable usage.
Using Mac OS is psychology for a lot of Windows users. That you can fallback to Microsoft on your Apple computer is the security blanket which allows them to step in and buy a Mac. It's not that they will run Microsoft, it's the fact that they can.
Now, you look at ARM computers where you can't cuddle up to Microsoft anymore. Realize you're paying a premium for a Mac and can't run Microsoft when Apple abandons you after a few years. People ain't stupid. They know what Apple are like with iPads and iPhones being obsoleted and so, while they need a phone to work, a computer not so much. ARM Macs means Apple is in control and applying current policy of ARM devices, can stop you from installing unsigned OS or from doing what you want, when you want it. They can also disable your Mac remotely. A true Big Brother move.
If you're buying a computer and you're saying you need to buy a Microsoft computer and a Mac, then a typical user will just buy a Mac. Most people still use regular apps, not cloud stuff. If it costs money then people won't use it.
Well, I think I have said enough, so I won't post more on x86 vs ARM. Clearly, a lot of people are wishing for Apple's Silicon to be something amazing.
I'm still not convinced Apple can come out with "something amazing" so soon, but you guys are perfectly entitled to your own opinions on the matter.
And all of us will see what happens when Apple introduces those new ARM Macs in the end.
I'm still not convinced Apple can come out with "something amazing" so soon, but you guys are perfectly entitled to your own opinions on the matter.
And all of us will see what happens when Apple introduces those new ARM Macs in the end.
I don’t believe anything more than a fraction of Apple’s Mac users use Windows /Bootcamp. It was a nice option 15 years ago to win these people over but the majority remain completely solo on macOS.
I don’t think that Windows fallback psychology is much of a thing anymore. But we’ll see. If the sales suddenly drop to the much smaller numbers they were before back in PPC days you’ll have a point.
I tend to agree. I think ASi will be "good" and better is some significant way (e.g. battery life for laptops), but I'm setting a low bar on my expectations. Second generation ASi may evolve quickly and offer a more compelling performance improvement. This suits me just fine, because I'm not an early adopter, and bought a new MBP16 last December, so I'm not going to upgrade that for another 4-5 years minimum. I'm mostly interested in a new 13-14" MBP and the iMac.
I'm still excited by ASi, and secretly hoping that it will be a huge leap...but don't expect it to be mind-blowing.
Well...according to recent MaxTech tests on his YouTube channel, quite possibly many people *have* wasted their money on a Mac Pro when the new 8 or 10-core iMac performs better for many audio-video tasks.
The iMac is still going to beat nearly every laptop by a significant margin though...so, any laptop is always going to a compromise of portability vs power
I agree. The personal computing ecosystem is quite different now to what it was in 2006 after the PPC->Intel transition. Macs were still quite niche computers and being able to run Windows or Linux via dual-booting or VMs was a big selling point.
These days, most people are happy with using mobile devices for many their "computing" needs and have no concerns about lack of Windows compatibility for many tasks. For those jobs that need an actual computer, the software selection is better on Macs than it was. Moreover, the Mac is seen as much more mainstream and even acquired some cachet as a "lifestyle technology accessory" for a certain market segment. As a productivity machine, Macs are pretty solid - well built, generally reliable, sufficiently fast, relatively good battery life, and with a wide enough professional software selection for most jobs.
I'm trying to think when I last came across an application that I needed that wasn't supported on the Mac without a good alternative....MS Visio maybe? But then web-based tools like LucidCharts or Draw.io are good these days... MS Project?
There isn't anything I really miss on Windows.
I do have *some* software that is Windows only, but I don't use this daily, so I will keep a cheap Windows machine ticking along for when I need it.
I didn’t forget, I just didn’t include a small anomaly for a niche product (I own a MM by the way) which was ruled by intel and their thermals. This is apples own silicon, and that’s the focus of my comments. Looking at their silicon - they have never released a processor that was worse than the year before.
Remember Apple Silicon is not ARM in the strict sense of the word - it does NOT use Cortex designs. All it uses is the ISA with everything else being Apple in house designed. And it has been the mobile performance and PPW king for a while now. Given that Apple at WWDC specifically stated that the Mac would have its own family of Apple Silicon we can safely assume they are upscaling their A Series to take advantage of the larger thermal envelope and power supply in a laptop.
My guess is at minimum they will ramp up the core count to 8 performance and 4 low power as well as ramping up both the size and the speed of the cache memory.
As to software, Apple already has most of the main professional software used on the Mac either native for AS right now or will be native by launch. Also as they demonstrated Rosetta 2 is a high performance emulator; that Tomb Raider demo was on Rosetta 2 and it was flawless.
My guess is at minimum they will ramp up the core count to 8 performance and 4 low power as well as ramping up both the size and the speed of the cache memory.
As to software, Apple already has most of the main professional software used on the Mac either native for AS right now or will be native by launch. Also as they demonstrated Rosetta 2 is a high performance emulator; that Tomb Raider demo was on Rosetta 2 and it was flawless.
An imac is a desktop last time I looked - we were talking about a cheap MSI laptop replacing a desktop [it can’t]. But yes an imac will beat every laptop [or it should....].
And no an imac cannot beat a Mac Pro in certain tests. For MaXtech it beat his Mac pro for his usage.
I know for a fact a Mac Pro would beat an imac in what I would use if for - but I dont own one as I know it is not the right computer for me.
I agree though many people have wasted their money on a Mac Pro as it is overkill for so many functions, but not for others. It is about being informed and making the right decisions.
Anyway, back on topic
Their claim seems to be better performance than current notebooks and desktops, at lower power requirements.
The arm Macs will outperform the intel ones in performance across the board except for 3rd party programs because that would rely on Rosetta and is an additional step in the processing process which is fine and is to be expected as 3rd party apps are not native apps, but for anything native it would be vastly superior, it has to be.. Apple wants the new arm Macs to sell, their performance gains over intel Macs will be the main selling point of them.
"Apple announced Microsoft 365 and Adobe Creative Cloud support for its first Arm chip and first Arm-based Macs, which it calls Apple silicon."
A little research goes a long way to cutting through the BS.