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jent

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 31, 2010
899
659
I'm happy to read other threads on this topic but I couldn't find one that's just a quick overview on the aspects where the Intel Macs are still better than the Apple Silicon models. Off the topic of my head quickly, it's the following:
  • Multiple (external) monitors
  • Support for booting into x86_64 Windows and Linux
  • No 16GB RAM ceiling
  • No 2TB SSD storage ceiling
  • No two-port ceiling for USB-C / Thunderbolt ports
  • eGPU support
  • Intel CPU is slightly faster in a small number of specific processor tasks
I ask this not to say Intel is better but to keep track of the few areas where the M1 hasn't met or surpassed the Intel chips so I can keep an eye on the upcoming Apple releases and see when not a single Intel benefit remains. Is there anything that's missing from my list? When do you think each item will eventually be surpassed by Apple's SoC?
 
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Brian1230

macrumors member
Jan 7, 2021
74
36
For me, so far everything has been better on my m1 than my intel MacBook air, not to say my intel MacBook air was not more than what I need, but the m1 seems to run circles around it.
 
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Mike Boreham

macrumors 68040
Aug 10, 2006
3,904
1,894
UK
I'm happy to read other threads on this topic but I couldn't find one that's just a quick overview on the aspects where the Intel Macs are still better than the Apple Silicon models. Off the topic of my head quickly, it's the following:
  • Multiple (external) monitors
  • Support for booting into x86_64 Windows and Linux
  • No 16GB RAM ceiling
  • No 2TB SSD storage ceiling
  • No two-port ceiling for USB-C / Thunderbolt ports
  • eGPU support
  • Intel CPU is slightly faster in a small number of specific processor tasks
I ask this not to say Intel is better but to keep track of the few areas where the M1 hasn't met or surpassed the Intel chips so I can keep an eye on the upcoming Apple releases and see when not a single Intel benefit remains. Is there anything that's missing from my list? When do you think each item will eventually be surpassed by Apple's SoC?

These may count as bugs rather than an M1 characteristics but many people are finding external USB SSD speed faster on Intel than M1. Also external booting from USB on M1 is problematical for some.

Interested in your last item, I haven't seen that before.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
The only CPU domain where Intel seems to have an edge is multi-precision arithmetics and even then I am not sure whether GMP silly suffers from weak ARM optimization...

Most of your points about limits are arbitrary btw. M1 Macs don't have any more restrictive RAM and SSD ceilings then the models they have replaced. Similar goes for ports.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
6,215
6,704
Tracking AS Macs’ inferior aspects won’t be a popular topic in these forums lol.

My guesses aren’t worth much but here they are:
- 1, 3, 4, 5 will change when the higher end AS Macs are released.
- 2 won’t change.
- 6, and 7 I have no idea.
 

Machspeed007

macrumors member
Nov 8, 2018
53
59
Romania
"two-port ceiling for USB-C / Thunderbolt ports"

The intels share 2 ports/Thunderbolt lane while the M1 has 1 port/thunderbolt lane. you can always add more external ports for the same speed and functionality as the intel, but of course that's external and with additional costs.
 

AAPLGeek

macrumors 6502a
Nov 12, 2009
710
2,218
I'm happy to read other threads on this topic but I couldn't find one that's just a quick overview on the aspects where the Intel Macs are still better than the Apple Silicon models. Off the topic of my head quickly, it's the following:
  • Multiple (external) monitors
  • Support for booting into x86_64 Windows and Linux
  • No 16GB RAM ceiling
  • No 2TB SSD storage ceiling
  • No two-port ceiling for USB-C / Thunderbolt ports
  • eGPU support
  • Intel CPU is slightly faster in a small number of specific processor tasks
I ask this not to say Intel is better but to keep track of the few areas where the M1 hasn't met or surpassed the Intel chips so I can keep an eye on the upcoming Apple releases and see when not a single Intel benefit remains. Is there anything that's missing from my list? When do you think each item will eventually be surpassed by Apple's SoC?

Forget multiple displays, there's an ongoing thread with reports of multiple issues running a SINGLE display reliably with the M1 Macs.

 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,697
Support for booting into x86_64 Windows
That's never going to be better on an M1. Best you can hope for is "adequate." It just can't happen without an x86_64 processor. (barring some kind of peripheral that contains an x86 processor like the old Amiga bridgeboard...)

It's not in the adequate category yet, but I have hope...
 
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Cookie18

macrumors 6502a
Sep 11, 2014
584
684
France
My Intel Macs fans are WAY faster than my M1 Macs fans.

In all seriousness, multiple displays is a killer. They need to fix that. I got an M1 Mini instead of an M1 Air because the single display support of the Air completely killed it for me.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
My 16" MBP is much better at keeping my hands warm than my M1 Air which remains icy cold no matter what I do with it.

I think you've got all the main areas covered in your original post - VMs are the main one for me, but they'll come with time.

That said, I'm incredibly impressed by how well it runs the ARM copy of Windows in Parallels - its incredible fast and responsive.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
I'm curious, why do you think that? It seems like a natural progression to me.

To put it simply: one of the primary advantages of Apple Silicon is that it offers a streamlined GPU programming model with predictable performance across the entire ecosystem. Two things are especially important here. First, it significantly cuts down the development and testing time, since you don't have to take care of all the hardware differences and driver bugs you encounter — everything from the TV to the Mac Pro runs the same hardware and the same driver, just different "quantities" of it. Second, Apple GPUs have unique features that no mainstream GPU can offer: unified memory¹, TBDR, shared memory across shader invocations etc. If you as developer take advantage of these features, you can build software that performs very well with high efficiency and flexibility. For example, high-performance unified memory of Apple Silicon has amazing potential for professional applications since it allows the CPU, GPU, ML accelerators and any other specialized processors to work on the same data in tandem, something that is impossible with a traditional PC where the GPU is connected to the rest of the system via a slow data bus. Basically, Apple Silicon is a huge step for GPUs on Macs, not only in terms of performance, but — what I personally consider to be much more important — in terms of stability, predictability and ease of development. I like to compare Apple Silicon Macs to consoles in this regard — you know what hardware you run and Apple gives you fairly decent amount of control over what that hardware can do, something you don't really have when working with a Windows or Linux machine.

Now, the problem with eGPUs is that they completely break the Apple Silicon GPU model. Most significantly, they break unified memory. Then, if you want an eGPU, you are probably talking about an AMD or Nvidia one (because let's be honest, why would Apple make an eGPU — it's a very niche market that won't make any sense for them). These GPUs don't support same things that Apple GPUs support, and they don't come with the same programming model, performance guarantees or the streamlined set of features. Developers now need to check what type of GPU is connected, what features it supports and what is the best way to program for it — increasing the development time, making testing more complicated and significantly increasing the chance of bugs (to be fair, this is how GPU programming currently works on Intel Macs or in fact on any PC, but that's also the aspect that Apple Silicon makes that much better. All for the <1% of users that run an eGPU... and for what purpose? Content creation software is likely to run better on the internal GPU anyway (because of unified memory) and games... well, once Apple-optimized games will appear, why would a dev want to implement a separate rendering path just for the handful of users who might own a dGPU if they can get great performance from opting into the TBDR-specific optimizations that will be guaranteed to work on any Mac?

And of course, there is a simple practical issue as well: even if Apple opens up their Metal drivers framework to the third party (which is very unlikely IMO), who is going to write the drivers? On intel Macs, eGPUs are easy — they are jut regular dGPUs connected via a regular PCI-e bus, it's just that the bus itself hangs on a longer cable. Intel Macs already need GPU drivers to run their AMD GPUs, the same driver will also work for the external GPU — with minimal OS support. But writing a driver specifically for Apple Silicon? Apple won't do it, they have no incentive whatsoever, and I doubt that AMD could justify the expense — the eGPU market is not that lucrative.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,697
To put it simply: one of the primary advantages of Apple Silicon is that it offers a streamlined GPU programming model with predictable performance across the entire ecosystem. Two things are especially important here. First, it significantly cuts down the development and testing time, since you don't have to take care of all the hardware differences and driver bugs you encounter — everything from the TV to the Mac Pro runs the same hardware and the same driver, just different "quantities" of it. Second, Apple GPUs have unique features that no mainstream GPU can offer: unified memory¹, TBDR, shared memory across shader invocations etc. If you as developer take advantage of these features, you can build software that performs very well with high efficiency and flexibility. For example, high-performance unified memory of Apple Silicon has amazing potential for professional applications since it allows the CPU, GPU, ML accelerators and any other specialized processors to work on the same data in tandem, something that is impossible with a traditional PC where the GPU is connected to the rest of the system via a slow data bus. Basically, Apple Silicon is a huge step for GPUs on Macs, not only in terms of performance, but — what I personally consider to be much more important — in terms of stability, predictability and ease of development. I like to compare Apple Silicon Macs to consoles in this regard — you know what hardware you run and Apple gives you fairly decent amount of control over what that hardware can do, something you don't really have when working with a Windows or Linux machine.

Now, the problem with eGPUs is that they completely break the Apple Silicon GPU model. Most significantly, they break unified memory. Then, if you want an eGPU, you are probably talking about an AMD or Nvidia one (because let's be honest, why would Apple make an eGPU — it's a very niche market that won't make any sense for them). These GPUs don't support same things that Apple GPUs support, and they don't come with the same programming model, performance guarantees or the streamlined set of features. Developers now need to check what type of GPU is connected, what features it supports and what is the best way to program for it — increasing the development time, making testing more complicated and significantly increasing the chance of bugs (to be fair, this is how GPU programming currently works on Intel Macs or in fact on any PC, but that's also the aspect that Apple Silicon makes that much better. All for the <1% of users that run an eGPU... and for what purpose? Content creation software is likely to run better on the internal GPU anyway (because of unified memory) and games... well, once Apple-optimized games will appear, why would a dev want to implement a separate rendering path just for the handful of users who might own a dGPU if they can get great performance from opting into the TBDR-specific optimizations that will be guaranteed to work on any Mac?

And of course, there is a simple practical issue as well: even if Apple opens up their Metal drivers framework to the third party (which is very unlikely IMO), who is going to write the drivers? On intel Macs, eGPUs are easy — they are jut regular dGPUs connected via a regular PCI-e bus, it's just that the bus itself hangs on a longer cable. Intel Macs already need GPU drivers to run their AMD GPUs, the same driver will also work for the external GPU — with minimal OS support. But writing a driver specifically for Apple Silicon? Apple won't do it, they have no incentive whatsoever, and I doubt that AMD could justify the expense — the eGPU market is not that lucrative.
Ah, I got you. Like you said there are the special cases that Apple cannot and will not fill the niche, and yeah, I agree, but that doesn't mean there wont be high end video hardware you can buy from someone else, and that's what I was talking about. I'm never just talking about Apple when talking about what the Mac's can do hardware and software-wise! There will be people that will fill the niche, in hardware and software, and it wont be cheap!
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
Ah, I got you. Like you said there are the special cases that Apple cannot and will not fill the niche, and yeah, I agree, but that doesn't mean there wont be high end video hardware you can buy from someone else, and that's what I was talking about. I'm never just talking about Apple when talking about what the Mac's can do hardware and software-wise! There will be people that will fill the niche, in hardware and software, and it wont be cheap!

Very true, but the question is whether these solutions will be available on Apple Silicon machines as well. Apple's walled garden can be annoying if you have particular needs, but it also has its attractiveness. As a hobby GPU programmer and enthusiast, I have to say I am really exited about Apple bringing Imagination GPU IP to the desktop — they are the only real innovation in the GPU space in very long time. GPUs became to big, too unwieldy, too power-hungry, and the APIs like DX12 and Vulkan are incredibly messy. In retrospect, I really start understanding why Apple abandoned the Vulkan bandwagon.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,697
Apple's walled garden can be annoying if you have particular needs, but it also has its attractiveness.
:) I know what you mean, but where I differ is I don't pay much attention to walled gardens. If it has some kind of input port, TB3 and whatever comes next, and you can run your own software on it, the wall really isn't there.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
For me, so far everything has been better on my m1 than my intel MacBook air, not to say my intel MacBook air was not more than what I need, but the m1 seems to run circles around it.
Well to be fair to Intel, the Intel MBA had a very low end Intel CPU and didn't have a proper cooling system. It was a very weak offering.

In addition to the advantages the OP mentions, the Intel Macs can be spaced with more high power cores and more powerful GPUs. That said I am not sure I would buy an Intel based MBP or Mini at this point. I definitely wouldn't buy a 21" iMac.
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,640
10,228
USA
Forget multiple displays, there's an ongoing thread with reports of multiple issues running a SINGLE display reliably with the M1 Macs.

There is also threads about Intel Macs having problems running single displays. Most people don’t have issues but there will be a few that do. People who don’t have problems aren’t complaining obviously.
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,640
10,228
USA
I’d say there are only a few reasons to buy an Intel Mac in 2021. If you want to run Windows and macOS on a single computer. If you have some outdated or unsupported application that won’t run on M1. If you have to immediately replace a current Intel Mac where there is no Apple silicon equivalent yet.

The reasons not to buy an Intel Mac in 2021. Battery life, faster processor, cooler processor, longer future support. Those are significant advantages and I’m sure I missed a few.

Also people like to compare the current M1 Mac to Intel Macs like the 16” MacBook Pro. Until the Apple Silicon version of that MacBook is released this comparison is silly. The only Apple silicon Macs that have been released are the 13” base model MacBook Pro, 13” MacBook Air, and base model Mac mini. If you need a different model than those three you should wait before buying a Mac.
 
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ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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I’d say there are only a few reasons to buy an Intel Mac in 2021. If you want to run Windows and macOS on a single computer. If you have some outdated or unsupported application that won’t run on M1. If you have to immediately replace a current Intel Mac where there is no Apple silicon equivalent yet.

The reasons not to buy an Intel Mac in 2021. Battery life, faster processor, cooler processor, longer future support. Those are significant advantages and I’m sure I missed a few.

Battery life is not an issue for desktop Macs. There are still plenty of use cases for which an Apple Silicon Mac is not ideal. If your job depends on one of those use cases, it might be better to stick with an Intel Mac for now.
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,640
10,228
USA
Battery life is not an issue for desktop Macs. There are still plenty of use cases for which an Apple Silicon Mac is not ideal. If your job depends on one of those use cases, it might be better to stick with an Intel Mac for now.
Yes battery life isn’t relevant for desktops. I think we can agree to that. I think MacBooks are most popular or just laptops in general even in business environments. I never understood why companies buy laptops if they never leave a desk but maybe easy transport for service. I’m guessing you’re talking about corporate environment when you say if your job depends on one of those use cases. Corporations will buy outdated computers so yes that could be another case to go with an Intel Mac. My work “upgraded” to Vista when everyone else realized how terrible it was and XP was already out. While that made me scratch my head I can understand a risk adverse decision making process. I’d say the vast majority of consumers should avoid buying an Intel Mac but exceptions to everything exist.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,133
14,562
New Hampshire
Fidelity Active Trader Pro.

If you want the best performance, run ATP on Windows 10 on bootcamp on your Intel Mac. M1 runs ATP miserably. There are complaints about it all the time in r/fidelity.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,133
14,562
New Hampshire
I am writing on my Intel Desktop, i7-10700, massive heatsink, 64 GB of RAM, 5 TB SSD, 3x4k monitors. Room for another three or four SSDs, a couple of HDDs and you get a little light show. I don't know if Apple's M chips will ever run Active Trader Pro well. The general recommendation is to get a cheap Intel laptop running Windows if you want to use Active Trader Pro. It really does not run all that well on even Intel macOS.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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Yes battery life isn’t relevant for desktops. I think we can agree to that. I think MacBooks are most popular or just laptops in general even in business environments. I never understood why companies buy laptops if they never leave a desk but maybe easy transport for service. I’m guessing you’re talking about corporate environment when you say if your job depends on one of those use cases. Corporations will buy outdated computers so yes that could be another case to go with an Intel Mac. My work “upgraded” to Vista when everyone else realized how terrible it was and XP was already out. While that made me scratch my head I can understand a risk adverse decision making process. I’d say the vast majority of consumers should avoid buying an Intel Mac but exceptions to everything exist.

Not all companies buy latops. During the Covid pandemic, many people need to use remote access tools (e.g. Citrix) to work from home. Many corporations do not yet support M1 Macs. It can take them a while just to support new MacOS releases.

Software developers targeting non-Apple platforms are probably going to want an Intel Mac too. Docker is not yet supported for example and there are plenty of other examples of software that is not yet production ready for Apple Silicon.

The larger point though is, if you use your Mac for work you need to be very confident everything you need is fully supported. Otherwise, sticking to Intel for now is the sensible choice.
 
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