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MP 7,1 At a crossroads between a new Mac Pro or something else
- Thread starter CJ Dorschel
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If every app on your platform has to add their own color management pipeline or find some middleware to do it because someone went "hey, we can ship monitors with wider color gamut now at consumer prices", maybe it's not your apps, its you.
It‘s akin to buying a “LEGO Death Star” to find out that all you got were the instructions and a parts list. Or suggesting that the individual should be responsible for public road repair, or buying/maintaining/operating city buses. There’s reasons why we centralize responsibilities, and expect complete products. OSes are the same way, they are a way to centralize common responsibilities when it comes to interacting with that OS.
Services like handling color are absolutely something the OS can and should help do. It already owns managing printers, and the display. Why is it so hard to accept it should be helping with understanding how to translate colors to the display or printer’s color space and baking that into the output pipeline? ColorSync was and is one of Apple's key strengths in production fields. Their lack of dominance in the field since the late 90s is more in spite of those strengths, and helped by things like price and the ease to find folks trained on Windows more and more as time went on (especially once Microsoft bought tons of computers for schools in the 90s). ColorSync even carries over to iOS and helps there.
ColorSync is also why Apple's switched from sRGB to DCI-P3 displays on their product line and nobody bats an eye or talks about oversaturated or garish colors. Meanwhile, it's a much bigger mess on the Windows side as DCI-P3 displays start showing up at consumer/enthusiast price points, and you have folks saying "don't buy a DCI-P3 monitor if you aren't using it in HDR mode if you care about accurate colors in your movies and games". Despite the fact DCI-P3 is a benefit for both movies and games, Windows' support for it (and thus the support for playback and games) is filled with issues.
EDIT: Not to mention, if an app doesn't have to "own" color management, maintain a pipeline or middleware to do it, the engineers are freed up to focus on more interesting customer-facing problems which benefits your whole platform. Ballmer was right that its about the "Developers, developers, developers", even if he meant more that he wanted as many on Windows as possible, not that Microsoft should spend constant effort making their lives easier and let them write less code. (Disclaimer, I am an engineer, and I do spend far too much time cleaning up after poor platform decisions like Windows' color management decisions when I do work)
WOW. I haven't had time to check back on this thread and read and the great replies. I will over the weekend.
I may have the chance at getting it with 25% off in addition to ~$1500USD trade-in on a Mac Pro I have which is pushing me more towards a Mac Pro. However, price isn't the only factor as so many have rightfully pointed out. Additionally, I would have to account for storage as my Thunderbolt 2 array would defeat the purpose of getting into a powerful system with internal storage via MPX modules yet a four bay RAID from Promise is ballpark $2200. I'm not so much interested in a RAID MPX as just putting my drives into the system and tossing/selling my Pegasus2 R4's for whatever they're worth (not much I'm sure). The two bay SATA III from Promise runs $325 each and I don't know if two can be used as I cannot find specifics in the tech specs outside of the PCIe/MPX modules. I've got a 1TB SSD blade I can throw in as well making the base SSD T2 simply for the OS, 1TB SSD is easy to throw in, just need to figure out the most cost effective way in putting my 3.5" drives into the system without going over the top. I hate stating I feel slightly pressured as the trade-in values are going down and I'd rather just trade-in the Mac Pro I do have over selling it on eBay or such as it's always a hassle and I got ripped off selling my 2010 Mac Pro for half it's value with a bill of $175 from eBay (and it would have been more if I set a reserve which I regret not doing but it would have doubled the costs - OfferUp and eBay, etc are insane with what they are charging for their services when these were are all a fraction of the price for the same services not long ago).
I'm rambling. I'll sift through this all over the weekend and crunch the numbers. If anyone has any advice on the best method(s) for moving 3.5" drives into the internal storage of the Mac Pro7,1 that isn't thousands of dollars I'm all ears - err, eyes. Thanks again!
I may have the chance at getting it with 25% off in addition to ~$1500USD trade-in on a Mac Pro I have which is pushing me more towards a Mac Pro. However, price isn't the only factor as so many have rightfully pointed out. Additionally, I would have to account for storage as my Thunderbolt 2 array would defeat the purpose of getting into a powerful system with internal storage via MPX modules yet a four bay RAID from Promise is ballpark $2200. I'm not so much interested in a RAID MPX as just putting my drives into the system and tossing/selling my Pegasus2 R4's for whatever they're worth (not much I'm sure). The two bay SATA III from Promise runs $325 each and I don't know if two can be used as I cannot find specifics in the tech specs outside of the PCIe/MPX modules. I've got a 1TB SSD blade I can throw in as well making the base SSD T2 simply for the OS, 1TB SSD is easy to throw in, just need to figure out the most cost effective way in putting my 3.5" drives into the system without going over the top. I hate stating I feel slightly pressured as the trade-in values are going down and I'd rather just trade-in the Mac Pro I do have over selling it on eBay or such as it's always a hassle and I got ripped off selling my 2010 Mac Pro for half it's value with a bill of $175 from eBay (and it would have been more if I set a reserve which I regret not doing but it would have doubled the costs - OfferUp and eBay, etc are insane with what they are charging for their services when these were are all a fraction of the price for the same services not long ago).
I'm rambling. I'll sift through this all over the weekend and crunch the numbers. If anyone has any advice on the best method(s) for moving 3.5" drives into the internal storage of the Mac Pro7,1 that isn't thousands of dollars I'm all ears - err, eyes. Thanks again!
The 2 bay version uses the SATA and power connections up at the top of the Mac Pro, and mounts into the space. So it's one per Mac Pro, unfortunately.
There really isn't one. Massive internal storage is not a strength of the Mac Pro. At least not if you don't want the MPX module. Someone could build a cheaper version of it for sure, but who knows if/when such a thing will exist.
You'd have to kit bash some mounting solution together, and use some sort of PCIe->SATA card. Probably one driven by the same controller chip used in the Promise 4-bay model. And add some power conversion cables to leverage the PCIe power headers and convert it to SATA-style power connections.
2.5” SATA SSDs have several options for internal mounting.
forums.macrumors.com
As of right now, 3.5” SATA HDD is via Promise adapter only for internal with mounting. Would look at USB-C 10Gbps drive arrays if you can live with it being external.
macOS PCIe SATA SSD Adapters (MP5,1 & MP7,1)
Wiki thread for compiling a list of confirmed PCIe SATA SSD adapters for MP5,1 with macOS. They're not as fast as NVMe, but they're widely available. Should also be helpful with options for transition to MP7,1 and (should) achieve faster read/write speeds with native PCIe 3 availability for...
forums.macrumors.com
As of right now, 3.5” SATA HDD is via Promise adapter only for internal with mounting. Would look at USB-C 10Gbps drive arrays if you can live with it being external.
I tried to switch for retouching Photogrphy work
built a really nice pc last year
gave it a really solid try
My problem is the OS
lack of proper color management
horrid preview limitations with 3rd party app
saving file not seeing all file types out of adobe
really missed the column view when dealing with files
total lack of tagging files customizing smart folders etc....
you realize how much you use the OS kinda like when you have a serious soar throat and how much you use your throat
hardware wise was happy OS wise kinda like having state of the art engine in a 1960s vehicle
can it wok fo others ? Sure for me trying it made me realize when OSX came out Why I got away from win NT around 15+ years ago and coming back how little has really changed win 10 needs radical radical redo it’s so far behind in so many ways for creatives I feel
bottom line one needs to get a good win machine and try it out
I'm the same. Moved from a 2013 MP to a PC and while I calibrate the monitor, etc I find that previewing any images I've exported as JPEG the colour is all over the place. Print management is hard too. It wasn't so important 3 years ago when I got this PC but it is becoming so now.
I've been of the opinion that I like to be able to upgrade my computer as I go along and the MP was a bit of departure from this. In hindsight after going back to a PC I realise that I've not once upgraded it since I bought it other than a couple of internal SSD's. With that in mind and the need to replace my current monitors I'm leaning towards an iMac or iMac Pro and keeping it until it is no longer useful. I'll see if there is a refresh in the next few months if not I'll just get one of the existing models and live with it. The need to proper colour management is more important at the minute.
Still haven't made a decision. I was considering moving to Windows as shaunp has done yet I know I'll face other matters which makes it a decision tough. I can't see myself leaving OS X - errr, macOS - not because I'm locked into an ecosystem as I work in multiple environments but it is still a superior OS for my needs (yet having used Big Sur for development, I'm not so certain if that will remain which is another matter altogether).
One idea/question: Apple allows you to trade-in Mac's for credit. Counting a Mac Pro I would be upgrading I also have a MacBook Pro. Assuming I understand correctly, you can only trade-in one device per transaction which in this instance would be one of my Mac Pro's. However, you can send in Mac's and receive a store credit which could be applied to future purchases. Am I understanding currently?
Trade-in values would fetch ~$2k plus 25% off which would bring the price of a base model down (don't need anything beyond that as I'll add RAM and storage later). Only concern is still needing to upgrade my Thunderbolt array's and that's more of an issue than anything. $2200 for a 4-bay internal array just to move SATA drives is absurd and upgrading to a Thunderbolt 3 array defeats the purpose of internal storage (simply want to return to the Mac Pro's of the 2000's and consolidate while improving speeds even with HDD's). Adding that cost drives it up to $6k easy and I have 24 TB's of storage. I could move two HDD's internally with the 3 bay SATA adapter and perhaps make use of the smaller bay for a SSD and simply use an external drive for Time Machine, then throw in a 2TB SSD. That may be more cost effective and improve workflow.
Otherwise I'll hold off and keep my array's hoping for better alternatives.
One idea/question: Apple allows you to trade-in Mac's for credit. Counting a Mac Pro I would be upgrading I also have a MacBook Pro. Assuming I understand correctly, you can only trade-in one device per transaction which in this instance would be one of my Mac Pro's. However, you can send in Mac's and receive a store credit which could be applied to future purchases. Am I understanding currently?
Trade-in values would fetch ~$2k plus 25% off which would bring the price of a base model down (don't need anything beyond that as I'll add RAM and storage later). Only concern is still needing to upgrade my Thunderbolt array's and that's more of an issue than anything. $2200 for a 4-bay internal array just to move SATA drives is absurd and upgrading to a Thunderbolt 3 array defeats the purpose of internal storage (simply want to return to the Mac Pro's of the 2000's and consolidate while improving speeds even with HDD's). Adding that cost drives it up to $6k easy and I have 24 TB's of storage. I could move two HDD's internally with the 3 bay SATA adapter and perhaps make use of the smaller bay for a SSD and simply use an external drive for Time Machine, then throw in a 2TB SSD. That may be more cost effective and improve workflow.
Otherwise I'll hold off and keep my array's hoping for better alternatives.
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There's a lot of good advice here so I'll try not to be repetitive.
I too was in the same situation a few months ago. Started working for a company full-time and they had NO established platform for 4k video and graphics. They don't even have a site license for MS Office.
In the end, it came down to the same understanding you have posted above. Ecosystem. I work better, faster, smarter, and deal with less issues ... or when issues arise it's easier for me to handle them. I can copy a HEX value from my MBP and paste it into my MacPro, use AirDrop, sync ... everything, and so much more.
I've used the same systems mentioned here for decades, HP Z workstations being my favorite. But overall I had to decide which platform I preferred to use. The case can be made for PC or Mac and has been ad nauseam for decades (for me, since Panther) and depending on WHO is using WHAT each can look mighty convincing.
When I was in Broadcast the HP Z workstations clocked in at $121k each and they needed two (for the lifeboat) so of course they made the Mac look sickly.
When I was in the boutique post production business it was a small server room (closet) filled with MacPros and some aging Xserves running FCP7.
When I did a short stint in high end post it was large sever room running Avid ISIS (Nexis now) and two HP Z workstations in main suites and a few Mac Pros.
All this to say that price really is the last thing you should consider. That's NOT to say buy whatever or spend whatever, just that creatives need to think first about what tools they need and which tool is right for the job. If you need Nvidia then the Mac Pro may not be an option.
If you need more than 28cores (like the broadcast station) then no Mac Pro.
If you need to run FCPX then Mac it is.
If you need to run ProTools and MUST be able to open the case without unplugging ALL of your PCI cards then RackMacPro or PC it is.
Don't sweat components (unless you need them), fine tuning, future transitions to ARM, or anything like that. I remember the transition to Intel and how terrible everything ran for a few months. Tech is always moving and changing.
In the end, I like a lot of other creatives don't mind paying (or having someone else pay) for the ecosystem/functionality of the Mac. That $6000 (or $7800 in my case) is scary, but the work needs to justify the price.
If that's too steep then get the next best thing. If the next best thing is a PC then go for it. If it HAS to run MacOS then get the iMac until the MacPro ends up on sale/refurbished.
I could keep going, but I've said plenty.
I could have written that myself. SPOT ON
I'm not in the industry anymore hence it's not a factor but was and still do my own work - mostly personal projects - so I won't be making money back on the investment but it IS an investment and whether it's actually dollars earned, time saved (workflow, post, general use), or however you wish to make such a determination on ROI it all comes down to exactly what you wrote. I don't need anything beyond the base model especially as I'll port components and add with use.
I was around during the PPC/Intel transition yet I personally believe the move to Intel was 100% the right decision. I still count Snow Leopard as the best OS X variant and Bertrand Serlet was perhaps Apple's best engineer (Serlet was the lead engineer for OS X 10.4 - 10.6 and specifically lead the Intel transition internally as Apple had been running OS X on Intel Mac's for years internally).
Off topic-ish: I am a bit nervous on the move to ARM Mac's mainly as Intel CPU's allow for cold booting and full virtualization of other OS's, in particular Windows. I know a lot of people who settled on Mac's as they can use them for work and personal use, often running Windows on a separate volume. MS does have a version of Windows for ARM but it's not intended for such use and I doubt MS is concerned with Windows running on Mac's as it won't hurt their sales - if anything it may increase sales especially in business markets.
ARM architecture has many benefits - smaller, power efficient chips that don't require complicated cooling systems if at all. I was floored when Ampere launched an 80 Core chip yet I know real world performance will differ and depend on many factors. I've been so pre-occupied with work (was a field agent then head of a joint cyber task w/ BND for 10+ years) I hadn't been able to keep up with tech as I used to over the past few years. I know it will be a few years before an ARM Mac Pro with ported apps necessary for many to work will become a viable option so getting into a Mac Pro now probably makes more sense. I just can't help worry what ARM Mac's will do for marketshare and multi-functionality. It brings me back to the PPC days when compatibility was much more of an issue.
Buying my 7,1 felt like when I bought the first edition of the Mazda Miata ~
Does it make sense?
Does it make sense?
I remember I was able to trade in an old iPhone a few days after I purchase a new iPhone. The trade-in value is issued as partial refund to my credit card, which was nice. Anyhow since you have some substantial value at hand, double-check the situation. There are third-party websites willing to take Apple products. I imagine they might offer a slightly better price; I have no experience with them.
Apple Trade-In Guide: Getting the Most Money Back
Trading in an old iPhone, iPad, or Mac can get you some extra cash to spend on a new device. Depending on where you decide to sell your device, you...
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I'm not an storage expert but TB3 to TB2 dongle does exist and it is bidirectional. Also would you consider network storage?
iMac Pro is another potential choice. A base model iMac Pro has higher spec (thermal notwithstanding) compared to a base model 7,1 while being $1k cheaper. Too bad it didn't receive the recent iMac update.
This is still very much on topic. A few readers and articles are recommending people wait and there's no real point in doing that.
The transition to Intel was very good, but the Mac Pro (PowerMac) took about a year to be released. And the hardware isn't going to up and stop working. Heck, there are new threads in MRs about people trying to find parts and software for the PPC G4s.
As for ARM, there will always be a long line of top notch used or yet to be sold Intel Macs far into the future, and I can see devs finding ways to put Windows and Ubuntu on ARM based Macs. If nothing else, we can always just buy a decent spec'd Winbox. I tried bootcamp and virtualization, but always had driver issues, so always ended up buying NUCs or mini-towers or PC laptops to run Windows specific software.
I wouldn't stay away from it perse, since it's got more TB3 ports than the iMac 2020, but the iMac 2020 really is snuffing out the iMac Pro in terms of performance. The only .... ONLY thing the iMac Pro has over it are the two extra TB3 ports and the black mouse and keyboard LOL.
One of the reasons I'd stay away from it now, is that you have to spec it onsite. There's no upgrade path for the iMac Pro, not even RAM, once it leaves the factory. By the time you put in the hardware you need two years down the line, it's very close to the $7500 for a (what should be base spec'd) decent Mac Pro.
We all know the Mac Pro gets a bad rap for the price and base spec, but at least you can legitimately buy off the shelf parts and upgrade the key components, including the CPU.
I have always owned modular upgradable Mac towers since my third Mac, a Mac IICI back in the very early Nineties. Run cooler, last longer and can upgrade to later technologies to keep the machine relevant.
Lou
Lou