At what point do you go DSLR over P&S?

[JFreak]

My main question is if I use the DSLR in the auto modes it has is there an advantage over a good PnS like the SD800 I had.

Yes. DSLR takes the pic instantly whereas P&S has lag between pressing the button and taking the pic. This annoyance is removed and using a DSLR you get to decide WHEN to take the pic.

"The Decisive Moment". You get this with a real camera.

Will the pictures be noticeably better, cleaner, sharper, whatever, better in some way?

Probably. There are some good P&S available that beat lowest quality DSLR cameras, but if by "DSLR" you mean "cheapest Canon/Nikon available today" I'd say there's always an edge in image quality, compared to P&S current cameras.

 

[ftaok]

Why is it so hard for things to be multi-purpose

My main point is that I want to be able to take photographs of snapshots and memories. That would be ideal. I don't want to have to worry, "Oh, I only took snapshots of this because I didn't have my DSLR or whatever on me."

Why can't they have a PSLR?

I totally get what you're saying. Only you can decide what your requirements are. Unfortuneatly, there's no "perfect" camera that combines IQ with convenience. The reason for this is that one of the biggest factors in IQ is the sensor size. The larger the better. Now you see where I'm going ... the larger the sensor, the larger the lenses, distance from the lens and the sensor, etc.

As far as the lenses go, they can be pretty clever and make great lenses in a small package, but the sensor size is limiting.

So, you have to determine what's important for you. If you want snapshots and memories, then a P&S should be right up your alley. Sounds like IQ is also important, so look for one that has a larger sensor, perhaps with fewer pixels as well to help in low light situations. If you're shooting pics of little kids or sports scenes, then look for one with mininal shutter lag. Lastly, if you want more artistic control, look for one with manual controls (PSAM) modes.

With that said, we're looking at the Panasonic ZS3 to replace our P&S. This will the wife's camera since she doesn't like the dSLR (too bulky). It has a 10x (maybe 12x) zoom, is relatively compact, 10MP (not too crammed), and a great movie mode. What it doesn't have are full manual modes ... but the wife isn't interested in that. The sensor size on this one is 1/2.33", which is typical.

BTW, if you're not conscious of price, you might want to look at the new Olympus EP-1. It's sort of compact and has removable lenses like a dSLR. The sensor size is 4/3", so it's big. There's no mirror like a dSLR, so it's can be more compact. A combination of IQ and compactness.

Also, the Canon G-series might be up your alley.

Hope this helps.

ft

 

[jampat]

I'm curious to know about this as well, as I just gave my Canon SD800 to my dad. It takes really great pictures, and I thought I might get whatever is the current elph camera for myself, but I was also looking at the Ti1 camera from Canon.

My main question is (I was about to start another thread for this, but hopefully it fits here) is if I use the DSLR in the auto modes it has is there an advantage over a good PnS like the SD800 I had. Will the pictures be noticeably better, cleaner, sharper, whatever, better in some way? And how often do DSLR users go away from auto modes and fine tune all the settings? I would like to learn to do that, but I don't want to start off just taking crappy shots all the time as I'm learning.

Also, one last question, with my point and shoot, the main problem I had--and I believe this is a very common problem--but I'm not well read on it--is that the pictures I took outside were always amazing. However, with indoor dark shots the flash would make everything look really white, not natural at all. If I turn off the flash, the pictures come out blurry though, as if maybe the image stabilization requires the flash to work. Is this problem somehow alleviated with fine tuning on a DSLR?

My DSLR has never taken a shot in any of the PnS modes. I primarily shoot Av, but sometimes Tv or M. DSLR will take better indoor shots without a flash than most PnS. Not great with the kit lens, but better. To get consistent great indoor shots (with the typical terrible light) you need a lot of money in glass or an expensive flash. Your pictures were blurry because the shutter speed of the camera slowed down to try to let enough light it. While the shutter was open either the camera or people moved. With the flash, the shutter can open and close quickly as the flash provides more (very ugly) light.

 

[JFreak]

My DSLR has never taken a shot in any of the PnS modes. I primarily shoot Av, but sometimes Tv or M.

I hear ya. I always shoot Av (without flash) or Tv (with flash, sync 1/250) but my wife has to be able to shoot PnS mode. Canon 40D is perfect for this.

 

[Acsom]

My main question is (I was about to start another thread for this, but hopefully it fits here) is if I use the DSLR in the auto modes it has is there an advantage over a good PnS like the SD800 I had. Will the pictures be noticeably better, cleaner, sharper, whatever, better in some way...?

Also, one last question, with my point and shoot, the main problem I had--and I believe this is a very common problem--but I'm not well read on it--is that the pictures I took outside were always amazing. However, with indoor dark shots the flash would make everything look really white, not natural at all. If I turn off the flash, the pictures come out blurry though, as if maybe the image stabilization requires the flash to work. Is this problem somehow alleviated with fine tuning on a DSLR?

IMO the biggest advantage of DSLRs over P&S is the low light/high ISO performance. With a P&S, you can crank up the ISO (light signal amplification), but the noise gets out of hand pretty quickly. Here is a Canon G9 at 1600 ISO; see the chroma in Bob's suit (don't tell him I took a camera to the concert):

Here is a Canon 40D & EF 70-200 f/2.8 IS at 3200 ISO. Yes there was more light, but the shutter speed is also considerably faster, the concert shot is at 1/50 and this is at 1/250:

The noise in the second shot is much more manageable. Of course, it cost a lot to get that; but there you have it.

And how often do DSLR users go away from auto modes and fine tune all the settings? I would like to learn to do that, but I don't want to start off just taking crappy shots all the time as I'm learning.

Good question. What a lot of folks don't realize is that for most of the era of personal photography, photographers like your parents and your grandparents understood the terms. They understood f-stops and shutter speed and film speed. They used rules of thumb like "sunny 16" and "f/8 and be there". A photographer took his/her time, set the exposure, focused, and squeezed the shutter. I remember my dad with his twin reflex Rolleiflex; it took a minute or so for him to set up the shot, then, "Say cheese!"

It isn't so complicated. If you get a DSLR, do the following exercises. Choose a fixed ISO of 100. Set the camera to Av, and take a shot at f/2.8 (or whatever your smallest f-stop is) and the same shot at f/16, and see the difference in depth of field, in what is in focus. Then set it to Tv, and take shots of passing cars; take a shot at 1/1000 sec, and one at 1/50 sec, and see the difference.

The best book for understanding the use of the controls, of the trinity of ISO, f-stop, and shutter speed, is Brian Peterson's Understanding Exposure. Without a doubt, it is the clearest explanation of how these settings work together to make your photographs communicate.

 

[-hh]

At what point do you go with a DSLR over a point and shoot camera and vice versa?

In general, the P&S is for carrying convenience when I think that I'll probably want a few photos, whereas the SLR is for when I know that I'll definitely be taking photos that I care about.

Do you have two cameras (1 DSLR, 1 P&S) or just one?

Both., although one of my dSLR bodies is currently down. Once I get it repaired, I'll be again at 2 P&S (old, new) & 2 dSLR bodies (plus lenses).

If I were to add film to the count, those numbers would roughly double. IIRC, 3 or 4 P&S and 6 SLRs (three different brands).

I keep a little P&S for general snapping. But when it comes to all round quality and speed - dSLR is a clear winner.

Which is essentially why carrying a dSLR is justified despite its carrying convenience penalty.

However, this doesn't mean that its impossible to take some nice shots with a P&S...they can provide some surprises when you follow some of the classical rules. For example, when under low light conditions, you won't suffer from high ISO noise if you use a tripod and long shutter speed.


-hh

 

[txhockey9404]

I had a 2007-ish model Canon Powershot with 10 megapixels, 3x Optical zoom, 10x digital zoom PnS, and when I tried to take pictures of hockey games, it just became unusable. That was when I decided to get a DSLR (albeit a low-end starter). The PnS was too slow, didn't have enough flexibility, and didn't have enough optical zoom. I know you can get the last two in a DSLR-like camera, but the shutter was so slow that even at the highest ISO (having to deal with graininess and noise), it would blur the players. I bought a Canon Digital Rebel XS kit to get my feet wet, and haven't turned back for most uses. I still carry my PnS with me, but since I have taken 2000 pictures with the DSLR, I have taken only 100 with the PnS. Sure it's not as convenient, but the flexibility is amazing. I bought a low end telephoto lens to get closer to the action, and that was another good decision. I now get near-professional quality action shots. Out of about 50 pictures, I get 10 or so good hockey shots. I just took it to a family party as well, and it performed once again, wowing everyone with the image quality from our self-timed portrait.

My advice, start low, that way your investment is not as large. Don't buy a professional camera just yet. If DSLRs aren't for you, you only have lost a few hundred dollars, not a few thousand. Keep in mind that photography gets expensive FAST. Buy your DSLR body ($400-$2000), buy a lens ($100-$5000), buy another lens ($100-$5000), buy an editing program ($50-1000, or just use a free program), buy a bag ($50-$500), buy memory cards ($5-$200), buy accessories ($unlimited), buy a backup drive ($50-$800), etc. Over the course of just 5 months with my DSLR, I have invested well over $1000.

 

[swingerofbirch]

SNIP

Good question. What a lot of folks don't realize is that for most of the era of personal photography, photographers like your parents and your grandparents understood the terms. They understood f-stops and shutter speed and film speed. They used rules of thumb like "sunny 16" and "f/8 and be there". A photographer took his/her time, set the exposure, focused, and squeezed the shutter. I remember my dad with his twin reflex Rolleiflex; it took a minute or so for him to set up the shot, then, "Say cheese!"

It isn't so complicated. If you get a DSLR, do the following exercises. Choose a fixed ISO of 100. Set the camera to Av, and take a shot at f/2.8 (or whatever your smallest f-stop is) and the same shot at f/16, and see the difference in depth of field, in what is in focus. Then set it to Tv, and take shots of passing cars; take a shot at 1/1000 sec, and one at 1/50 sec, and see the difference.

The best book for understanding the use of the controls, of the trinity of ISO, f-stop, and shutter speed, is Brian Peterson's Understanding Exposure. Without a doubt, it is the clearest explanation of how these settings work together to make your photographs communicate.

Thank you very much! That is a very helpful post to me. I have heard that book mentioned somewhere else, so it's good to have a second recommendation. I am looking at the Canon T1i right now. Costco has it with the lens for 799 and includes some multifunction printer as well for free that I don't want, but it's still cheaper than Amazon. Although in actuality Costco ends up being a tad more expensive with sales tax, so I could save a few bucks and skip the multifunction printer. What do you think of the T1i and that price? I know the one complaint is that it doesn't do full frame rate 1080p, but I don't really care about that. I really like Canon as a brand because they have a plant here where I live (southeastern VA) and I've liked the two Canon PnS's I've had.

 

[dllavaneras]

I really used and abused my old P&S (Canon S1 IS), to the point that no matter how hard I pushed it, it had reached its limits. I got an S2 IS from my dad, but soon after I bought a Canon Rebel XTi.

The only pictures I've taken with the P&S since are of my new camera

Seriously, I've only taken a handful of pics with my P&S since I got the DSLR. i don't mind lugging it around (I've gotten used to the weight) and yes, whenever I take it out I end up using at least half of the lenses and accessories.

For me, I went from P&S to DSLR when I saw the speed, image quality and DOF control, and actually handled one. The high ISO advantage of the DSLR was also a big selling point.

My P&S is now in the hands of the photography club I lead. It has a lot of manual controls, so my classmates are learning!

 

[Acsom]

Thank you very much! That is a very helpful post to me. I have heard that book mentioned somewhere else, so it's good to have a second recommendation. I am looking at the Canon T1i right now. Costco has it with the lens for 799 and includes some multifunction printer as well for free that I don't want, but it's still cheaper than Amazon. Although in actuality Costco ends up being a tad more expensive with sales tax, so I could save a few bucks and skip the multifunction printer. What do you think of the T1i and that price? I know the one complaint is that it doesn't do full frame rate 1080p, but I don't really care about that. I really like Canon as a brand because they have a plant here where I live (southeastern VA) and I've liked the two Canon PnS's I've had.

What do I think of the T1i? Heck, I'm just a guy who likes to take pictures. I think that they're all good, and they all represent good value. Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, the big 4 in the DSLR field, they're all excellent machines. I know a guy who shoots with an old XTi and he gets his shots on magazine covers. So, if you choose the T1i, you will have a camera capable of taking world class photographs. I chose Canon because my sister shoots with Canon and we can share lenses; I'm sure I would have been thrilled with another brand (I was considering Nikon) as well.

Do you know the Amazon Gold Box trick? It saves you 5%. Clear all your recommendations and all your purchases (check "do not use this to make recommendations" in your personal settings). Then choose 3 items that can ONLY be used with the item you covet; for a T1i, choose an instruction manual, a battery grip, and maybe a battery. Check, "I own this" on those items. The object is to get Amazon to make recommendations for you based on these items. Then put the T1i in your shopping cart, BUT DO NOT CONSUMMATE THE TRANSACTION. Wait a day, then check your Gold Box. Be patient. Check it daily, or a couple times a day, for the next few days. The T1i should eventually show up in your Gold Box with an additional 5% off. I bought my 40D and 2 expensive lenses that way.

 

[choiboyogg]

both definitely have their time and place.
but do not think for a sec that an SLR will make you take better pictures...

 

[Mavimao]

Here, here choiboyogg!

Having the know-how and good equipment only take you so far. Raw talent fills the rest.

 

[swingerofbirch]

What do I think of the T1i? Heck, I'm just a guy who likes to take pictures. I think that they're all good, and they all represent good value. Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, the big 4 in the DSLR field, they're all excellent machines. I know a guy who shoots with an old XTi and he gets his shots on magazine covers. So, if you choose the T1i, you will have a camera capable of taking world class photographs. I chose Canon because my sister shoots with Canon and we can share lenses; I'm sure I would have been thrilled with another brand (I was considering Nikon) as well.

Do you know the Amazon Gold Box trick? It saves you 5%. Clear all your recommendations and all your purchases (check "do not use this to make recommendations" in your personal settings). Then choose 3 items that can ONLY be used with the item you covet; for a T1i, choose an instruction manual, a battery grip, and maybe a battery. Check, "I own this" on those items. The object is to get Amazon to make recommendations for you based on these items. Then put the T1i in your shopping cart, BUT DO NOT CONSUMMATE THE TRANSACTION. Wait a day, then check your Gold Box. Be patient. Check it daily, or a couple times a day, for the next few days. The T1i should eventually show up in your Gold Box with an additional 5% off. I bought my 40D and 2 expensive lenses that way.

wow great amazon tip and inspiring message i could be a world class photographer and made LOL about "consumating" a transaction...never heard the word consumate used that way before

 

[Acsom]

wow great amazon tip and inspiring message i could be a world class photographer and made LOL about "consumating" a transaction...never heard the word consumate used that way before

Someone once said, never use a small word when a big word will do.... I didn't realize they were joking!

Here is a link to my friend's gallery. Everything before 2007 was an XTi, in mid '07 he bought a 5D. Ken takes nice photographs.

http://www.kendallarsonphotography.com/

 

[feedmeister]

Wow, you guys have all been very helpful! I think I'll save up for one and give it a shot. If I don't like it, I can always sell it right? I think I'd rather buy from a place like amazon than from somewhere like Craigslist or ebay. Too many horror stories there, but that's another thread.

 

[JFreak]

Someone once said, never use a small word when a big word will do.... I didn't realize they were joking!

So, you mean never "utilize" a small word

 

[canonguy]

Just curious as to your thoughts here. What features do the entry-level SLRs lack that cause you to make this statement? I've been using my XTi for over a year now and I don't think I've outgrown it ... but granted, I'm a glorified snapshooter with ambitions of taking more artsy shots.

ft

For what you are doing, the XTi is great...My first DSLR was a 300D, a 6.1MP. It worked fine until I went Pro. Got some amazing shots... My Point is (to toxic and HDOc as well) is that the technology moves so fast that spending $800 on an entry model that will replaced in 6 months may not be as wise as spending $1500 on an advanced amateur model. Depending on when you bought Xti you payed from $600-$800 (my 300D was $1000 in 05). Today you can get the top of the rebel line for $850, and it has HD video.

Toxic, you need a fact check...i'm not one to talk, i talk out my a** all the time too.

HBOc, I shoot the original 5D, and yes it is obsolete. Is it still a great camera, hell yes. But I wish everyday I had a MarkII. Buyers remorse has become an inevitability in a market that is driven by innovation. The technology moves too fast. Nine months ago I was selling cameras... today I could walk into a store I wouldn't recognize a single p&s on the shelf.

The original point was that not every one is ready to invest in a DSLR, if you are not prepared to spend thousands of dollars, than an advance P&S (Mega–zoom, Manu–matic) is a better choice.

 

[gkarris]

I guess this is my questions from this thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/651488/

I was looking at one of these - they seem to be on sale right now, upgrade my budget Canon A460 since I can't afford an Olympus PEN...

My deal is that I'm used to my E-420 AFA walk-around. But it's still bulkier than a P&S (and louder when in quiet meeting settings).

This P&S has IS, which should help with ISO, but still a much smaller sensor.

I tried taking comparison pics with my P&S zooming in, and my E-420 at 25mm (which would be like getting the Pancake Lens instead) and cropping.

The pics each have their advantages/disadvantages (can post if you want to see them).

Suggestions?

I was asking about a specific "Manual" P&S on sale.

I guess one of the main things is that if you are going to fool around with manual settings, why not on a real dSLR?

The question still stands:

Zoom with a P&S that has a tiny sensor or Crop with a Compact Prime Lens on a dSLR?

I'm in the process of taking pics for comparison...

 

[swingerofbirch]

SNIP

My Point is (to toxic and HDOc as well) is that the technology moves so fast that spending $800 on an entry model that will replaced in 6 months may not be as wise as spending $1500 on an advanced amateur model. Depending on when you bought Xti you payed from $600-$800 (my 300D was $1000 in 05). Today you can get the top of the rebel line for $850, and it has HD video.

SNIP

I am confused.....When you say top of the line rebel, I think you mean the T1i, which is around 800-850 like you said, so are you saying that is an advanced amateur model? Or entry level model? (Before you said 800 is an entry level model)

 

[romanaz]

I don't know, maybe I'm different then most, but I take my 40d with me just about everywhere (except inside of the casino, b/c I'm not allowed!).

I don't mind the weight, its really not that much, especially considering that I'm used to carrying my 17in macbook pro with me to class or to some events.

Also could be because I've never truly owned a point and shoot, only used my parents old kodak point and shoot which sucked. Even if the 40D is to heavy, for now at least I got my rebel. I'm also a perfectionist, and I hate the lack of control on point and shoots, or at least lack of easy control. Hell most of the time my 40D is on Manual.

 

[jodelli]

For what you are doing, the XTi is great...My first DSLR was a 300D, a 6.1MP. It worked fine until I went Pro. Got some amazing shots... My Point is (to toxic and HDOc as well) is that the technology moves so fast that spending $800 on an entry model that will replaced in 6 months may not be as wise as spending $1500 on an advanced amateur model. Depending on when you bought Xti you payed from $600-$800 (my 300D was $1000 in 05). Today you can get the top of the rebel line for $850, and it has HD video.

I like the Rebel too, it's a nice compromise that isn't really.

The thing with the Canon A85 P&S was that during the couple of thousand shots with it there were photos that I just simply couldn't capture. I have a Minolta that could do those same shots, but with the expense of film involved.
Thus thus decision to go DSLR.

 

[gkarris]

I guess this is my questions from this thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/651488/



I was asking about a specific "Manual" P&S on sale.

I guess one of the main things is that if you are going to fool around with manual settings, why not on a real dSLR?

The question still stands:

Zoom with a P&S that has a tiny sensor or Crop with a Compact Prime Lens on a dSLR?

I'm in the process of taking pics for comparison...

Anybody?

I went to see the new Olympus PEN today - really sweeeeeeet....

Too bad I can't afford one anymore...