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Strider64

macrumors 68000
Dec 1, 2015
1,511
13,531
Suburb of Detroit
I been using Photoshop way before diving into photography. To me, an image is only "doctored" if it distorts the original message or intent. The news media may enforce stringent rules (overly so, in my opinion), but in the case of Kate Middleton, I don't believe those photos were doctored. It's likely Kate wasn't in the mood for a family portrait due to here illness/diagnose, which can become quite the endeavor with the necessary protocols and the media spotlight it attracts to her and her family. Perhaps Kate simply wanted to reassure everyone that the family was doing well, and any alterations made to the images were for reasons known only to them. 🤷‍♂️
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
This question goes back to the AP pulling the Princess Kate photo for being altered. What counts as altering a photo. Is it color correction or true photoshopping. If a photo is not direct from the camera is it considered doctored or altered.

With AI software changing the sky entirely I can see how this will become a bigger issue in the future.
If I may? This really is an old question asked at a time when "doctoring" has been standard since the development of (no joke) of photography itself.
The creation of a copy of reality has always been in the hands of the photographers.
Development times/chemicals/paper types (glass before and before that) all have had adjustable qualities and ever since been used to present what the photographer wanted you to see.
This has advanced (if you think it has advanced) to the point when no camera is required to "take a photo" that could be considered real or not.
In conclusion, I think it depends on how old you are, your skillset and your gullibility. If you see a picture then it is up to you to decide; no-one else can do it for you because as checks improve so do methods as they always have done and will continue to.
As I wrote earlier an old question with the same answer. Photographs have always been able to lie because the photographer/camera/darkroom sequence has always lied.

PS:- I forgot the dodging and burning arguments caused in newspaper photography, especially in the USA1940-50s.

I have a friend (shock horror) of a certain age who does not posses a camera (In USA) who seems to be winning photographic competitions (reputable) using free internet available © free and an AI app on her phone. How does manipulation question become relevant to that?
 
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mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,895
5,260
SE Michigan
I have a friend (shock horror) of a certain age who does not posses a camera (In USA) who seems to be winning photographic competitions (reputable) using free internet available free and an AI app on her phone. How does manipulation question become relevant to that?

Can you share a link to 2-3 of these photographic competitions?
TIA.
 
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jagolden

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2002
1,587
1,501
Photos have been doctored eversince the first manual airbrushes came along. Even by hand painting with brushes if you were good enough. Image editing application simply made it easier and more convenient.
Unfortunately I just can’t get on the AI bandwagon. It’s lazy, and offers no true ceativity to the process. IE applications take a lot of skill, and constant upgrading of the artists skills. AI is lifeless and souless.
 

Jumpthesnark

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2022
1,242
5,146
California
What counts as altering a photo. Is it color correction or true photoshopping. If a photo is not direct from the camera is it considered doctored or altered.

You raise a question that's as related to philosophy as it is to photography.

All images are "altered" in one way or another, because no camera-lens-film/sensor combination duplicate what we see with our eyes, optic nerves and brains. All we can do is try to come close to the reality that we see, if that's what we want from a photo.

So any post processing that does not try to coax the resulting image back closer to what the photographer saw could be considered "altering." You mention color correction, which our images need but our eyes do not. That's a great example. Also, RAW images come straight out of the camera very flat, so they actually need some sharpening and contrast adjustment, just to get them close to what the photographer perceived while taking the photo. Likewise, a jpeg is using an algorithm to make a finished image, and that may not reflect reality straight out of the camera either. I have cameras that offer numerous different jpeg processes. The resulting images all look slightly different. Which one is "real?"

In the end, the photographer who is trying to make their images reflect what they saw will do what they can to overcome the limitations of the photographic tech and technique that was used, and nudge the image to reflect what they saw.

I had a deep discussion with a photojournalism professor when I was in college. All of us students had put our b/w prints from an assignment on the wall for critiques and grading. I had taken a photo on a day with a clear blue sky, and I used a medium yellow filter on my lens. He peered at that photo for a while, then challenged me. He asked if I had used a filter on the lens. I said yes. He said he didn't think that my use of a yellow filter was ethical, in a documentary photo. I reminded him that we were all shooting in b/w, and that humans don't see that way, so none of the images being graded that day reflected reality and were in that sense "unethical." Then I said that Tri-X will always overexpose a blue sky, turning it nearly white in b/w images, but that using a yellow filter will return the tonal value of a blue sky to a gray that resembles an accurate rendering of what that blue sky looked like, relative to the other elements of the scene. Therefore, I said, not using a yellow filter was unethical. He laughed and agreed with me (he was a great teacher and he really enjoyed that kind of a discussion with students).

So what is the photographer's intent? Is the intent to change what something looked like in order to move it further away from reality? Or is the intent to use gear and techniques that will result in a more honest depiction of the scene that was photographed?

What Kate Middleton did was alter a photographic representation of reality. For her (and for most people) this was a harmless improvement to a family photo. But to the Associated Press and other outlets, this was a violation of commonly accepted standards* of photojournalistic imagery, hence the reaction in the world of journalism. She may not have intended to create a journalistic work, but once the House of Windsor released the image to the press, then it became more than a family photo.

All of the above is from my point of view as a photojournalist. It's very different from what a photographic artist would say. Or a hobbyist/amateur/astrophotographer/commercial photographer/etc.

*One item in the National Press Photographers Association's code of ethics says "Editing should maintain the integrity of the photographic images' content and context. Do not manipulate images or add or alter sound in any way that can mislead viewers or misrepresent subjects." This code of ethics has been the standard of the industry for decades. Photographers' contracts for the AP, Getty, Reuters, etc. all flatly reject image manipulation.

Thanks for having this discussion! It's been fun to read the responses.
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
Do you have a link to this photo or a discussion of it? I've never heard of this example. Thanks.
Sorry my research is mine. If it is doubted me posting it just adds to the doubts - so - no. You do your own and come up with something as near to original as you can - just asking me aint going to cut it.🦈
 

OldMacs4Me

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2018
2,323
29,934
Wild Rose And Wind Belt
So some real world examples. Left side of the diptych is as it came from the camera, and I suspect very closely matches the actual scene. However to avoid blown highlites I used an EBV of -.333. Does that make it an unacceptedly altered image?
042024o_057alt.jpg

What caught my eye was the play between light and dark. The right side emphasizes that but I may have been overly aggressive with my correction. Too doctored or just projecting a darker mood?

The other element I liked was the rich green moss. With the last frame I tried to strike a better balance between light and dark and also gave the saturation a very slight boost. If this image escapes the cull claw this will be the version I use.
042024o_057Ar.jpg
 
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Jumpthesnark

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2022
1,242
5,146
California
So some real world examples. Left side of the diptych is as it came from the camera, and I suspect very closely matches the actual scene. However to avoid blown highlites I used an EBV of -.333. Does that make it an unacceptedly altered image? View attachment 2370860
What caught my eye was the play between light and dark. The right side emphasizes that but I may have been overly aggressive with my correction. Too doctored or just projecting a darker mood?

The other element I liked was the rich green moss. With the last frame I tried to strike a better balance between light and dark and also gave the saturation a very slight boost. If this image escapes the cull claw this would be the version I use.
View attachment 2370861

Back when I was shooting chromes, I always exposed for the highlights. Some images would have the dark and "moody" look of the image you showed on the right, but I would rather let the shadows go dark and retain the highlight exposure, which slide film easily lost if overexposed. Yes, it meant more drama in the images too.

When shooting negs, I'd expose for the shadows, which is more what the image on the left looks like. The idea was, you'd have all the detail and then just bring down the highlights in the darkroom.

Now while shooting digitally, I tend to expose for highlights, like I did when shooting chromes. That's how I see. With rare exceptions, I don't expose for the shadow areas, I let them go dark.

I don't see your preferred post processing as "unacceptably altered" at all.
 

Uofmtiger

macrumors 68020
Dec 11, 2010
2,353
1,068
Memphis
I think we are seeing more AI that didn’t actually start with a real photo, which is the bigger issue for photography.

I agree that it is in the eye of the beholder. My own perception is adding new elements to a photo via compositing or AI is doctoring. Removing elements or enhancing elements in a photo are usually normal editing. However, when that is taken to extremes, it could end up being “doctoring”.

As for HDR, I think it is often representing what was seen, even if it’s in a hyper vivid way. I see some that looks ok and some of it looks bad to my eye, but I would still put most of this on the editing side of things. Doesn’t mean I would like it, but I wouldn’t see it as the same thing as an AI app that added a huge moon behind a barn photo.
 

lkalliance

macrumors 65816
Jul 17, 2015
1,416
4,539
Here’s tonight from my iPhone 14 Pro .
Crop, minor exposure edits that’s it


Here’s same camera.
I used portrait mode .. is this photo “doctored”?
If I had my R5 with me, with appropriate lens I could do same thing ..

I think that's part of a larger category of question. Most iPhone photos these days use "computational photography." You might say that just like portrait mode, there's a lot of post-processing that to us users isn't "post", but to the light rays it is.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
My thoughts on doctoring are not so much the portrait mode above but blatantly misrepresenting the scene or completely doctoring things, such as removing or adding things to the image.

I’m also against tabloids doctoring images of people to go with opinionated headlines. That’s wrong.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
Terrific thread, - I'm sorry that I didn't catch it until today - with several excellent, interesting, informed, instructive and thought-provoking posts, an example of the internet - and this forum - at its best.

Anyway, on topic, I used to teach Russian and Soviet history, and had an absolutely fascinating book (which I used in class) that was full of extraordinary images (from Soviet archives, it was published during that brief period in the 1990s when their archives were accessible to scholars) featuring "before" and "after" photographs of groups of individuals, often leading communists from Lenin's time, who were (subsequently) 'disappeared' from history - and the public record - after they had fallen foul of Stalin's secret police and were convicted (and executed) following show trials.

One or two (such as the notorious shot of Lenin addressing a crowd which featured Trotsky standing close to him in the original, and genuine version, a version that had been published in the west, whereas, in the version that appeared in the old Soviet Union, Trotsky had been airbrushed out of the image) were already quite well known, but the vast majority of the images were completely new to me.
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,233
13,303
Scribe scrawled:
"One or two (such as the notorious shot of Lenin addressing a crowd which featured Trotsky standing close to him in the original, and genuine version, a version that had been published in the west, whereas, in the version that appeared in the old Soviet Union, Trotsky had been airbrushed out of the image) were already quite well known, but the vast majority of the images were completely new to me."

Would you happen to have any links that point the way towards a library of such images?
 
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r.harris1

macrumors 68020
Feb 20, 2012
2,210
12,757
Denver, Colorado, USA
Scribe scrawled:
"One or two (such as the notorious shot of Lenin addressing a crowd which featured Trotsky standing close to him in the original, and genuine version, a version that had been published in the west, whereas, in the version that appeared in the old Soviet Union, Trotsky had been airbrushed out of the image) were already quite well known, but the vast majority of the images were completely new to me."

Would you happen to have any links that point the way towards a library of such images?

Some of the classics are here. The one of Yezhov was the one I was most familiar with...

 

splifingate

macrumors 68000
Nov 27, 2013
1,901
1,694
ATL
Just one example:
Most astrophotography you see can’t be done without some stacking of images, etc.
Is that … cheating? Deep sky stacker, etc. artificially enhancing bands of frequencies with a color.

I remember when the full data from the Huygens drop was released (Cassini; NA/ESA/ASI, et al.).

I d/l the raw images, and the processing that I had to do (both internally, and externally) just to get something that approached meaningful was a labour of love.

In the end (after an intense period of post-processing), I didn't even begin to approximate a Product that made sense to the rods:cones of a mammal living at the bottom a 312-mile-deep swamp.

My eyes regularly see clover, and birds, and clouds in the sky . . . the efforting I had to do to gain an approximate viewing of a hazy-atmosphere-dive onto what appeared to be about the same as the algea-brown-covered stones I might see at the bottom of a local creek was only lit with the enthusiasm that these were piece-meal documents of an experience that occurred roughly 9.5AU away!

I could publish the resulting GIF, here, but it's probably best to go crawdad fishing in a local creek for the best view of such a thing ;)
 

splifingate

macrumors 68000
Nov 27, 2013
1,901
1,694
ATL
If a photo is not direct from the camera is it considered doctored or altered.

I would consider such a qualification to be True.

However, the veracity of the intent is probably a more pertinent qualifier.

Sincerity transcribes no replicably-verifiable metadata, which inevitably leads us into the realm of Trust :)

This is earned, not awarded.

My preference is to leave the assessment to be the eye of the beholder, rather than mine own.
 

Strider64

macrumors 68000
Dec 1, 2015
1,511
13,531
Suburb of Detroit
I just had a photo that I took out some logs/branches that were sticking out of the water. ⬇️
deer-edit-001.jpg

I personally don't consider this maliciously doctored, as the deer are the main focus of the image. One of the logs could have been left in, but in my opinion, the other log was ruining the reflection of the first fawn. Removing the second log made the image more appealing—at least to me.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,985
55,997
Behind the Lens, UK
I just had a photo that I took out some logs/branches that were sticking out of the water. ⬇️
View attachment 2390783
I personally don't consider this maliciously doctored, as the deer are the main focus of the image. One of the logs could have been left in, but in my opinion, the other log was ruining the reflection of the first fawn. Removing the second log made the image more appealing—at least to me.
I think this amount of doctoring is perfectly fine. When you post the two together as above, you don’t think you have changed all that much.

Great photo btw
 
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