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voy@ger

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 20, 2021
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Haarlem, Netherlands
There is one: https://www.applecarforum.com/forums/
Not that active since the last posting dates from before that fateful decision to halt development.

My plea is for a more fundamental discussion regarding what an Apple car ought to have been.
Why? Well, the billions that went into developing a potential Apple Car haven led to nothing tangible.
I call that a QED that outside-the-box (and Apple realm) thinkers ought to give it some thought.

The two outer opposite sides IMO are
1. what Apple was reportedly working on: a $100K costing luxury autonomous car,
loaded no doubt with Apple's latest connectivity etc. gizmos.
2. what was suggested in another thread: a not necessarily owned EV that can be summoned
the moment you need to go somewhere.

My feeling is that Apple decided to cancel Titan because:
1. AV technology in general is nowhere near to what developers want us to believe (L5 around the corner)
2. No chance of Apple's AV tech becoming proprietarily unique AND dominate like Apple operating systems usually do.
 
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voy@ger

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 20, 2021
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Haarlem, Netherlands
Why it’s hard for any AV technology to qualify as a unique, therefore proprietary Operating System?

There is a ‘winner-beats-all’ mindset, in which each AV developer sets out to engineer an automated driving system. Not good from a standardization perspective, a necessary phase to go through for any system that is to take over from human drivers uniformly. We can not expect authorities and regulators to adapt roads and regulations to facilitate different systems. One of the biggest hurdles in devising systems is figuring out unusual traffic situations and driving conditions, and and how to prepare automated drive systems to cope with them. That requires developers to open up and to share their proprietary secrets. Authorities already asked them about their testing and evaluation procedures. Unlikely that this will happen (any time soon)...

And that is why the focus will need to fall back on the transportation mode itself, the car.
 
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Why it’s hard for any AV technology to qualify as a unique, therefore proprietary Operating System?

There is a ‘winner-beats-all’ mindset, in which each AV developer sets out to engineer an automated driving system. Not good from a standardization perspective, a necessary phase to go through for any system that is to take over from human drivers uniformly. We can not expect authorities and regulators to adapt roads and regulations to facilitate different systems. One of the biggest hurdles in devising systems is figuring out unusual traffic situations and driving conditions, and and how to prepare automated drive systems to cope with them. That requires developers to open up and to share their proprietary secrets. Authorities already asked them about their testing and evaluation procedures. Unlikely that this will happen (any time soon)...

And that is why the focus will need to fall back on the transportation mode itself, the car.

Before I say anything further, I’m coming at this from the vantage of being an actual urbanist. Keep that in mind.


AV won’t take off, en masse, until pedestrians and bicycle commuters can trust the vehicles. If a pedestrian or bicyclist can’t motion to or make eye contact with the operator of a three-tonne AV at, say, a four-way stop, in their intent to cross or turn, then no trust or faith can be established for the inability for that pedestrian or bicyclist to assess confirmation from the AV of its intent.

AV won’t take off so long as it can’t solve street congestion and faulty urban planning paradigms in North America and Australia wrought from World War II concepts carried over to the postwar world. It also means complete overhauls of existing built form to re-integrate more mass transit linkages which were wiped out after World War II, as people re-learn to live much closer to where they shop and work and hang out with their friends.

AV won’t take off until an incontrovertible use-case for their presence presents itself, then supersedes and obsoletes, definitively, human operators.

AV most certainly won’t take off so long as the same groups of designers and developers, who have been sharing their vision through the current crop of automotive products, continue to demonstrate they can’t design a safe dashboard and console cluster without the re-introduction of proprioception and muscle memory and reducing operator’s eyes from leaving the road. This means ceding some of the glass UI controls for things like cabin climate settings to dedicated, physical controls requiring no eyes from the road to alter. The whole point of improving the cockpit is to make sure the operator’s eyes can stay on the road for the maximum possible time. Public safety 102.

AV also is a solution in search of a problem — not unlike some, uh, other recent innovations.
 
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voy@ger

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 20, 2021
69
27
Haarlem, Netherlands
What if the Apple car would have been some mysteriously, yet effectively working DEVICE... instead of the monstrosities we see today that have become their own 'people immobilizers' since they get us stuck in traffic?..
 

voy@ger

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 20, 2021
69
27
Haarlem, Netherlands
ffc72642f503199c946518f2025c8e35.jpg


So, let's look for the 'outer markers' in the discussion or search of a to a large extent autonomous-functioning Apple car or automated passenger vehicle in general... To start with, as long as we're not able to "beam me up Scotty" from A to B, a physical transport mode will need to be part of the equation. I don't think that Tim Cook and Jony Ive ever went that far in discussing options. So, let's we.

I have often stated here that there's an intriguing similarity between catering to Personal Mobility with a smartphone (versatile-bridging distances virtually) and catering to Personal Mobility with let's call it a smart auto-mobile (bridging distances in person, real time)... You might think of this as stating the obvious. Maybe, but IMO if Ive and Cook had gone over this, they would have taken a different approach. What personally intrigues me, is that there's a 'distinct unversality' (for lack of a better word) to the smartphone, like there is to let's say Einstein's E=MC2 - meaning: if Apple under Steve Jobs hadn't come up with it, would someone else... eventually?
 
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I have often stated here that there's an intriguing similarity between catering to Personal Mobility with a smartphone (versatile-bridging distances virtually) and catering to Personal Mobility with let's call it a smart auto-mobile (bridging distances in person, real time)... You might think of this as stating the obvious.

Whether stating the obvious, or not, you’re correct with this observation.

What less often happens is taking apart why the relationship is there and why it is seemingly obvious.


From a sociological vantage, people in cars and people staring down their phones, when walking down a sidewalk or inside a store, share another trait: both technological paradigms wall people away from one another as people co-occupy a public space, a commons. One is literal (the private vehicle); the other is cognitive/attention-oriented. One presents itself in public rights-of-way; the other presents in both public rights-of-way (like sidewalks, crosswalks, city parks, transit stations, etc.) and also private spaces of public and semi-public gathering and consumption (like businesses and shopping zones).

For each paradigm/means of walling off from one another shares a relationship uncomfortably near a 1:1 ratio of isolation and, ironically, loneliness. There is also a near-par relationship with an escalation of social segmentation and polarization.

From a socio-historical perspective, the propagation of both paradigms, also ironically, made their chief propagators enormously rich in just a few decades. As well, economists regard both as economic revolutions. (Sociologists, meanwhile, recognize the cost of a handful of entities getting so rich, so completely, benefits those entities, at great consequence to the health of society’s fabric. It’s highly asymmetrical and not a benign event.)

For the private car, these were the automotive companies; automotive accessories (like tires); fuel suppliers (not only oil companies, but the rise of fast food); and construction companies (commissioned to build and maintain infrastructure).

For the handheld device, these have been the major platforms by Apple and Google; the phone suppliers (Samsung, HTC, Apple); telecoms (4G LTE/5G infrastructure companies); and energy suppliers (both carbon-positive and those approaching carbon-neutral).

The long-tail effects for both seem to point to less obvious, slower to manifest hits on public health, natural ecosystems, and beyond.

It required nearly fifty years of painstaking research to definitively find negative sociological and health side-effects of the private automobile: shattered, destroyed communities; permanent brain damage from childhood ingestion of airborne TEL (tetraethyllead, or lead); cardiopulmonary disease (soot particulates, chemical smog byproducts like nitrogen oxides); disruptive impacts on built form, land use, and ecosystems; and negative impacts on social and geopolitical health (aforementioned isolation; increased aggression as finite use-resources, such as roads, grew permanently congested; and literal wars and blood spilled over fuel stock access).

The same degree of painstaking research with handheld devices in public and private space has only been underway for maybe a decade, at most. Provisional, correlative findings seem to be pointing to: a positive relationship with increasing loneliness/isolation reported in people’s lives; escalations in distracted driving incidents; an increasing probability of the brain’s reward-response systems matching those of chemical addiction with the uptick of scroll-based, algorithm-fed social media; and more. The aforementioned will continue to bear data for more definitive findings, but it will take time, possibly another decade or two, and even more negative, sociological findings may emerge as long-term data begins to amass to be analyzed statistically.


Maybe, but IMO if Ive and Cook had gone over this, they would have taken a different approach. What personally intrigues me, is that there's a 'distinct unversality' (for lack of a better word) to the smartphone, like there is to let's say Einstein's E=MC2 - meaning: if Apple under Steve Jobs hadn't come up with it, would someone else... eventually?

Not necessarily, but it’s also something we can’t test empirically from our spatial-temporal vantage. That is: we are locked on this timeline and in this universe.

We can’t test an assessment of a world in which, say, a consequential event in 2001 never happened, thereby never putting new urgency on the adoption of 3G mobile services to integrate always-on, geo-tracking protocols.

Although the core function of adding location services to the protocol was presented as a way to assist public services, like paramedic and police calls, to find a person in distress quickly, two things happened instead.

One was a widespread acceptance of a surveillance society, of which a geo-aware handhelds were but one piece of the composite picture. The other was tech companies, several scrambling to restructure their internet-integrated business plans after the 2000–01 dot-crash recession, which honed in on and prioritized the potential to integrate then-discrete products — PDAs, cellular phones, portable computers with internet wifi) — into a unified product (called “convergence”), and to move toward a new business model of making device users the product (rather than the hardware, software, and web services being sold as products).

This means we also can’t test a world in which, ca. 1991–92, public commissions actually did classify wireless telephony as a public infrastructure under regulatory oversight and public access the way wired telephony had from its adoption. We can’t know whether the mobile phone would continue to evolve as an even better mobile phone, without the internet appliance aspect taking over entirely — or, at least not in a way we know it now.

We can’t test an assessment of a world in which, say, by 1998, regulatory enforcement of legislation in the absence of a DMCA (and its geopolitical younger siblings) never came to fruition — meaning, changes which gave rise to online streaming subscriptions and microtransactions (to, say, buy an MP3) never came to pass. We can’t know if a DMCA failing with no viable successor would have relegated the internet to a research tool whose presence in everyone’s lives might have still happened, but without tech startups and web advertising expenditures pouring trillions of dollars into the wholesle commercial overtaking of the entire medium.


So no: I don’t think this was “E=MC2”-inevitable, as this compares a literal law of this universe’s physics to mercurial decision making consequences which human beings choose (and chose) to make, both individually and institutionally (at the governance and also the economic model level wherein a society either welcomes, rejects, or picks and chooses only those parts which work).

I do think external factors — by external actors, all human — affect how and why tech (and its products, services, and paradigms) propagates as it has.

That means they are also not a fait accompli — not set in stone forever and not inevitable, unlike, say, a law of physics.

But the important thinking and reckoning about the consequential impacts of tech almost always ends up, in true human nature and form, being remedial, revisionist, and looking rearward at what has already happened (and the impacts those had), rather than to do the examination prudently before careering headlong into a major, paradigm-changing direction with a kind of blissful ignorance toward how it will consequentially alter the morrow.
 
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theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
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My plea is for a more fundamental discussion regarding what an Apple car ought to have been.
My feeling: just read a Tesla brochure with all your skepticism turned off - except maybe with a slightly more distinctive body shape. Now whether Telsa delivered that is an issue for another forum but in terms of concept - and disruptive marketing - my difficulty was always that Tesla had already promised the "Apple Car".

Well, the billions that went into developing a potential Apple Car haven led to nothing tangible.

If Apple have built up a nice little portfolio of AV-related patents that's big enough to buy them a seat at the table when the "winning" AV platform emerges, that could be "mission accomplished" as far as Apple is concerned.

The two outer opposite sides IMO are
...I'm not sure that (1) and (2) are any different technology-wise. The challenge of creating reliable AV is the same, one basic product could be used for both roles, maybe with cosmetic differences in how they were fitted out.

The difference is that (2) - the automatic taxi - would demand level 5, I think the Tesla (and maybe Apple) model was that you could sell your luxury private cars with L3/4 automation to fund the development of L5. I think the inconvenient truth (which has always been pointed out but is now becoming obvious) is that L3/L4 automation is a disaster waiting to happen because (a) asking human beings to stay alert and ready to intervene while the computer drives ain't gonna work and (b) a lot of human beings will stop listening at "automation", crack open a beer and fire up Candy Crush. There's really no "safe" progression between L1 and L5 - it isn't ready until it is ready.

My feeling is that Apple decided to cancel Titan because:
1. AV technology in general is nowhere near to what developers want us to believe (L5 around the corner)
2. No chance of Apple's AV tech becoming proprietarily unique AND dominate like Apple operating systems usually do.
Nah. It's because Jony Ives has left so they can't call the Apple Car the "JohnnyCab" -).

But seriously... Wouldn't disagree with either of those - but, as I said, Apple may now have enough IP to claim a stake in whatever tech does succeed.

The real appeal for a company like Apple (or Google) is the leverage that comes with owning the platform. First, even if they sold private AVs, let's face it, there's going to be a subscription (or lots of ads). Then they're going to use your mapping service - more valuable advertising revenue if business want visits from your cars. Plus drivers and passengers will want music and movies and games on those long boring rides where they don't even have driving to distract them. AV owners will surely want phones and watches that tie in with their car, and even "call Johnnycab" buttons in their address books. Or, at least, that's what CEOs will want people to want.

So one reason for Apple starting "Project Titan" may have been as a hedge against an arch rival like Google getting there first - and one reason why they cancelled it may have been that Waymo doesn't seem to be going anywhere recently.

The other - bearing in mind the timing - may be the EU Digital Markets Act and the likelihood that other countries will adopt similar laws (I think the key point is the idea of identifying "digital gatekeepers" rather than relying on the old definitions used by existing anti-trust/monopoly laws) which would throw a spanner in the works of that sort of platform dominance, either by Apple or their fellow "gatekeepers" like Google, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft... (It's not like the USA hasn't seen a string of lawsuits on a similar theme).

What personally intrigues me, is that there's a 'distinct unversality' (for lack of a better word) to the smartphone, like there is to let's say Einstein's E=MC2 - meaning: if Apple under Steve Jobs hadn't come up with it, would someone else... eventually?

Well, yes, and "eventually" wouldn't have been long coming. Apple didn't invent the smartphone (or the personal media player, or most of their other successes, most of which were already on the market before Apple launched their take on it). Apple did come up with particularly good, and innovative, designs at just the right time - but I'm not sure they've ever been first-to-market in any product category as broad as "smartphone" or "personal computer".

The breakthrough for the iPod was maybe the iTunes Music Store. With the iPhone they had the "courage" to go with a touch-screen-only UI (Android was already in development, but with a Blackberry-like button/jog-wheel driven UI and did a massive pivot once the iPhone was launched. I had a Windows phone which had a slide-out keyboard, touch screen, stylus, jog wheel, joypad and software that wasn't optimised for any of those). Secret sauce of the original Mac? UI, obviously.

So the question for project Titan would have been, what was the magic ingredient going to be, given that Apple were unlikely to be first to market? If there wasn't going to be one, that might have been a good reason to drop it.
 
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voy@ger

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 20, 2021
69
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Haarlem, Netherlands
It required nearly fifty years of painstaking research to definitively find negative sociological and health side-effects of the private automobile: shattered, destroyed communities; permanent brain damage from childhood ingestion of airborne TEL (tetraethyllead, or lead); cardiopulmonary disease (soot particulates, chemical smog byproducts like nitrogen oxides); disruptive impacts on built form, land use, and ecosystems; and negative impacts on social and geopolitical health (aforementioned isolation; increased aggression as finite use-resources, such as roads, grew permanently congested; and literal wars and blood spilled over fuel stock access).

So no: I don’t think this was “E=MC2”-inevitable, as this compares a literal law of this universe’s physics to mercurial decision making consequences which human beings choose (and chose) to make, both individually and institutionally (at the governance and also the economic model level wherein a society either welcomes, rejects, or picks and chooses only those parts which work).
Good points! Carmakers only think in terms of selling as many cars as possible. The consequences are there for governments, city councils and of course car owners to deal with. They couldn't care less. 'We' need an outsider to broaden the view. There is way more to 'Personal Mobility' than selling cars. Is it (still) efficient as a way of getting around, still tolerable, safe, eco-friendly, etc.

THERE is where Apple might have scored: come up with something dramatically different that addresses what carmakers have left unaddressed!

With 'universality' of the Apple iPhone I meant that the product format hasn't basically changed: rectangular with rounded edges, touchscreen operable. In that sense Apple was the first to market in 2007.

The difference is that (2) - the automatic taxi - would demand level 5, I think the Tesla (and maybe Apple) model was that you could sell your luxury private cars with L3/4 automation to fund the development of L5. I think the inconvenient truth (which has always been pointed out but is now becoming obvious) is that L3/L4 automation is a disaster waiting to happen because (a) asking human beings to stay alert and ready to intervene while the computer drives ain't gonna work and (b) a lot of human beings will stop listening at "automation", crack open a beer and fire up Candy Crush. There's really no "safe" progression between L1 and L5 - it isn't ready until it is ready.

The real appeal for a company like Apple (or Google) is the leverage that comes with owning the platform. First, even if they sold private AVs, let's face it, there's going to be a subscription (or lots of ads). Then they're going to use your mapping service - more valuable advertising revenue if business want visits from your cars. Plus drivers and passengers will want music and movies and games on those long boring rides where they don't even have driving to distract them. AV owners will surely want phones and watches that tie in with their car, and even "call Johnnycab" buttons in their address books. Or, at least, that's what CEOs will want people to want.

So the question for project Titan would have been, what was the magic ingredient going to be, given that Apple were unlikely to be first to market? If there wasn't going to be one, that might have been a good reason to drop it.

Ideally, a robo-taxi would operate fully autonomous. They cannot (yet). Providers like Cruise and Waymo try to compensate by remote-viewing how their taxis are doing. When something happens, they can't intervene. That's why I slotted them in somewhere between L4 and L5. But some might say that this is already too much credit.

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"Owning the platform" - good point! In the thread https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...t.2421232/page-11?post=32997810#post-32997810
I go into this more detailed: the vehicle as enabler of driverless.
 
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