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4TB in slot 4 is recognized as one 4TB volume, just as one would expect. I've read that people on 4,1 firmware might not be able to see over 3TB volumes, and one theory is that the 5,1 firmware (which I updated my 4,1 to) fixed this limitation. Anyway, the "8TB limit" you mention is likely just marketing copy from the fact that when they wrote it, there were only 2TB disks available, and four slots to put them in, hence 8TB. Like they say it only handles 16 or 32GB of RAM, when we also know that isn't true. You can put 4x4TB HDDs in the Mac Pro (at least a 5,1) and I'm sure you'd see 16TB.

16TB: Wow - good to know! I was not aware of that. Again, possibilities. :)

On another note, do you think that 64 or 96 mb RAM is excessive/unnecessary? Just curious. My thought along these lines is that if I end up using FCPX, and since it apparently renders in the background on the fly, that the extra RAM might help keep things from slowing down - and also just out of general principle (and in my experience e.g. using Photoshop/having multiple programs open at the same time) that more is better. I can't tell you the number of times over the years that I've wanted the benefits of a lot more RAM but did not have it.
 
Of course - what was I thinking? The x16 is one of the 3 OPEN PCIe slots, so of course the Areca card would go there. Wasn't paying attention when I read the spec page on Apple's website. :rolleyes:

Hmm, I wonder... Is there such a thing as an x16 capable RAID controller, and if so would that present a significant enough performance increase to make it worth buying?

Also, the Areca ARC-1880X (according to OWC website) has two 4-channel external SFF-8088 mini-SAS ports. Does that mean that two different arrays are possible off of a single card? Oh, the possibilities... :)

The 1880X has two external SFF-8088 connections. X = external, i = internal, FYI... so my ix has both internal and external connections.

Each connection runs four ports... four disks in other words. I have a Sans Digital 8-bay tower which has two 8088 input connections, so I run two mini-SAS cables to it in order to connect to the two sets of four disks inside.

You can create as many arrays / volumes as you like in any configuration. The Areca card sees each disk as an eligible member of any set, so if you have eight disks, you could make eight single disks (as passthrough) or four 2-disk RAID-0 sets, or two 4-disk RAID-3 sets, or a 5-disk RAID-5 and a 3-disk RAID-0... whatever. It's also not limited to being internal or external, so you could join disks from the internal and external connections into one massive 16-disk RAID using my 1880ix-12, since there are three internal 4-port connections and one external 4-port connection on my card.

16TB: Wow - good to know! I was not aware of that. Again, possibilities. :)

On another note, do you think that 64 or 96 mb RAM is excessive/unnecessary? Just curious. My thought along these lines is that if I end up using FCPX, and since it apparently renders in the background on the fly, that the extra RAM might help keep things from slowing down - and also just out of general principle (and in my experience e.g. using Photoshop/having multiple programs open at the same time) that more is better. I can't tell you the number of times over the years that I've wanted the benefits of a lot more RAM but did not have it.
I think 32GB is ideal. I had 16GB and was still seeing page outs and swap file use, but with 32GB, I have neither. I considered 3x16GB sticks, but it was like $800 or something at the time, and I think it would have been mostly unused in my case. Most I've ever seen tied up while using Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects and a few internet windows all at once was 30GB.
 
3 GB/s - Impressive! What controller card are you using for the 8 OWC 6Gs? I'm assuming you didn't somehow stuff all 8 of them inside the MP, yes? :)

Why would you go with the 520 if you were buying now - because of the price difference?

Areca ARC-1880-ix-12. Yes, all 8 are in the MP. I have

Bays 1-4: Seagate 3TB 7200 RPM
Upper optical Bay: 1x OWC 240GB SSD system and 1x old 7200 drive Bootcamp
Lower Optical Bay: 4x OWC 120GB 6G Extreme SSD
Also 4x OWC 120GB 6G Extreme SSD in transintl DX-4.

No problems with the OWCs but if the Intels were cheaper I'd go with them.
 
If you are serious about industry standard, than you're better off learning Avid Media Composer.

Personally for the work I do:

1. Avid MC
2. FCP 7
3. Nothing else

For people using the higher end cameras like RED etc. at the moment it's still probably:

1. Avid MC
2. Adobe Premiere CS6
3. FCP7
4. FCPX

You're best bet is to buy the fastest MacPro you can afford.

Whatever the fastest video card they have on offer or now you have some extra choices thanks to some forum members

Atto or Areca for RAID
or Thunderbolt enclosure if the new MacProo is released
Suitable enclosure for Raid (there's heaps of posts on this topic)

2 x Apple Thunderbolt Monitors if they release the new MacPro or 2 good monitors (DELL, Samsung would be my picks)

AJA or Blackmagic Design IN/Out box Again you could maybe go Thunderbolt or one of their higher specced cards.

Are you going to be digitizing tapes on the machine????

Grading or reference monitor.

Either high end Plasma or OLED from Sony, LED from TVLogic or similar, Dolby etc.

Good set of monitor speakers (doesn't have to be extravagent unless you have the Coin)

Mircrophone for dummy VO (USB mic can be fine)

Right Click mouse from Logitech LOL
 
I would go with the best Mac Pro processor you can purchase, have internal SSD for boot, 32-64 gb ram and pegasus r6 thunderbolt raid drive (assuming the new MP has thunderbolt) to keep all of your footage on for editing.

Premiere isn't bad I have just made the switch to adobe for all of my video/motion graphic needs and glad I did. Iv used FCP for years and adobes dynamic link save the dave for me when using both After effects and premiere.

Do the 50$ a month for Cs6 its a decent deal and if your a designer like you said you can take advantage of the other 4 design programs that it comes with.
 
Wow! Thanks everyone for all of your valuable input - I really appreciate it! :D I'm going to digest all of this and reply to specific questions that some of you have asked along the way.

In the meantime, if anyone has anything else to say, that would be great! :)
 
I would like to second what others have said:

I suggest since you are already familiar with Adobe applications, you should look more into Premiere CS6. Here is an interesting article about it on CreativeCow: Premiere CS6 1st Impressions

As another poster mentioned, you will greatly benefit from learning After Effects as well at some point. I have about 5 years experience in Final Cut 6 & 7, and feel that my most impressive work relied in part on something accomplished in After Effects. Obviously After Effects is best integrated with Adobe's own NLE; Premiere.

Also, another poster recommended Avid as the first choice for matching industry standards. While I agree, it doesn't sound like this would matter for an independent such as yourself. No matter what, you are likely to come into contact with other editors that have chosen different platforms. Avid is quite uncommon among independents and smaller companies due to it's higher cost. This is a generalization, but the main point is that you really should not concern yourself with what some big time studio is using. Inversely, if you are planning to collaborate with someone else, then you obviously need to take their software choice into consideration first.
 
Don't forget the keyboard! I have one of these for work and home (minus the shuttle):

http://www.logickeyboard.com/shop/avid-media-composer-2767p.html

LKBU-MCOM4-M89-US1024S-p.jpg
 
Consider something like an Areca RAID card for $800-900, an external box for $400 or so, and eight enterprise HDDs for $200 apiece. (Newegg has refurbished RE-4 disks for $190 each!) With cabling and whatnot, you've got less than $3000 spent on an array that will give you 1100MB/second in a RAID-0 stripe, or as is the case for my system, 816MB/sec writes and 714MB/sec reads in RAID-6, where any two drives can fail without losing any data. (I've tested this personally, and it's very nice to see it work so well.)

What do you think about connecting this to the Areca 1880x:

http://www.sansdigital.com/towerraid-/tr8xplus.html

...with 8 SATA III enterprise HDDs, striped, and for a backup drive get either another single-drive enclosure (or just put it in one of the 4 internal bays)? Do you think I would see any benefit for overall read/write using SATA III, or would SATA II be just as effective since the drives will be striped? I'm thinking that at 1100 mb/s, whether it's II or III probably doesn't matter, but I'm new to this, hence the question. :)

About the TR8X+, firstly, do you know if Sans Digital is a solid brand with well-made products? Secondly, I'm not 100% clear when their Overview reads "The mini-SAS ports combine eight hard drives connections into two...". The Areca card would still take those 2x 4 HDDs via it's 2 mini-SAS ports and combine all into a single striped drive, right?

Am thinking of SSD for the boot drive, and one of the following:

1) Two more striped SSDs for scratch (via Apple Disk Utility RAID), or

2) if the Areca card allows it use 4 of the external HDDs as one stripe for scratch and the other 4 as a second stripe for working files, UNLESS

3) you think that per your setup the 2 HDDs striped via Disk Util don't present any bottleneck issues with your editing software.

Which of those 3 options do you think is best? I realize that if #2 is possible then the read/write would probably be reduced some since it would be 2x4 at that point instead of 1x8.

Also I remembered another question: Do you know if there is any software that allows for lossless (or at least very high quality) video up-sampling (similar to what onOne's Perfect Resize does for raster images)? The reason I ask is that if I work in HD (say, 720) but certain clips are only available at 480, I would like to have the option of up-sampling via software that would produce a high-quality result with minimal or no interpolation artifacts.

As always your input is sincerely appreciated! :D

----------

Don't forget the keyboard! I have one of these for work and home (minus the shuttle):

http://www.logickeyboard.com/shop/avid-media-composer-2767p.html

Image

Thanks for the tip! Wow, that's pretty cool. Does that work with Avid only or also with FCPX/Premiere?
 
That is the same TR8X box my system uses, don't let the two cables confuse you. You can make 1x8, 2x4 or any arrangement of disks in RAID sets any way you like.

I have all 8 in one RAID-6, with media, scratch and everything organized in separate folders on the one 12TB volume. No bottlenecks or problems. I also have a second scratch volume on two HDD in RAID-0 inside the Mac Pro. It's just the cache files and where photoshop puts scratch when I don't use a RAM disk for scratch.

I use Premiere or After Effects for everything, including sizing video, so I don't know any other software just for up-scale work.
 
That is the same TR8X box my system uses, don't let the two cables confuse you. You can make 1x8, 2x4 or any arrangement of disks in RAID sets any way you like.

I have all 8 in one RAID-6, with media, scratch and everything organized in separate folders on the one 12TB volume. No bottlenecks or problems. I also have a second scratch volume on two HDD in RAID-0 inside the Mac Pro. It's just the cache files and where photoshop puts scratch when I don't use a RAM disk for scratch.

Thanks so much wonderspark! You (and nuckinfutz, and everyone else who's replied to these posts) have been a tremendous help with all of this. I believe I'm gonna go the direction of SAS and am excited about it! I really like the idea of using this established, solid technology, that with it high read/write speeds can be achieved, and all for less than my original SSD idea. This is very valuable info and I truly appreciate it, more than I can tell you. :)

Since you haven't had any bottlenecks, do I assume correctly that SATA II HDDs are more than enough for the array? Or do you think that SATA III would have a distinguishable benefit over and above SATA II?

I use Premiere or After Effects for everything, including sizing video, so I don't know any other software just for up-scale work.

Does Premiere and/or AE have some sort of up-sampling feature? I've used FCE for just straight scaling of clips on my current system, but it looks pixelated (i.e. the same way that a 200 dpi raster image would be pixelated on a 200 lpi printed piece if scaled up 200% for an effective res of 100 dpi). What I'm after is the scale-up without the degradation of the video quality for certain clips that are only available at 480. That being said, are you saying that is what Premiere and/or AE can do?
 
(The 1880 series has been replaced by the 1882 series not long ago, so the 1882 may be even faster for all I know.)

Am looking into this and what I see so far from Areca's website is that the 1882x has a Dual Core RAID-on-Chip 800MHz and a 1GB on-board DDR3-1333 SDRAM cache, instead of the 1880x's single core chip and DDR2-800 512MB cache. The 1882x is also SAS 2.0 (apparently the 1880x is 1.0...?). Sounds like this could be very advantageous. From their website, on the 1882 page:

"SAS 2.0 is designed for much higher speed data transfer than previous available and backward compatibility with SAS 1.0."

I like it already, though it is about $100 more than the 1880x (newegg - $820). :)

Thought this might be of interest to you:

http://thessdreview.com/raid-enterp...raid-card-review-4-7gbs-transfer-performance/
 
That is the same TR8X box my system uses

I just called Sans Digital to ask them a couple of questions, one of which had to do with their Overview page stating that the TR8X+ is for "high transfer rates of up to 750MB/s". I asked them if that was per drive, per 8088 cable, or total. They said "total". Does that jibe with your numbers?

I ask because the guy didn't sound 100% convinced of his answer, and because you said you got 1100MB/s in a RAID-0 stripe and 816MB/s / 714MB/s in RAID-6 (and I believe you :)). In other words, I think the guy I spoke to at SD is wrong (unless I'm missing something) because if the total transfer speed of the TR8X+ was 750 mb/s then your confirmed speeds wouldn't be possible except for the 714 mb/s reads. What do you think?
 
I just called Sans Digital to ask them a couple of questions, one of which had to do with their Overview page stating that the TR8X+ is for "high transfer rates of up to 750MB/s". I asked them if that was per drive, per 8088 cable, or total. They said "total". Does that jibe with your numbers?

I ask because the guy didn't sound 100% convinced of his answer, and because you said you got 1100MB/s in a RAID-0 stripe and 816MB/s / 714MB/s in RAID-6 (and I believe you :)). In other words, I think the guy I spoke to at SD is wrong (unless I'm missing something) because if the total transfer speed of the TR8X+ was 750 mb/s then your confirmed speeds wouldn't be possible except for the 714 mb/s reads. What do you think?

Nevermind this last one - I searched and found that you answered this in a previous thread. :)
 
Nevermind this last one - I searched and found that you answered this in a previous thread. :)

Glad you found an answer, but I don't recall what my answer was previously. I'm traveling at the moment and posting my screenshots is a pain, but it would be interesting to see what their answer is when questioned on how they tested their max speed and came up with 750MB/second. Perhaps they used 8 disks that only gave 93MB/sec each, and never updated their tests.
 
Glad you found an answer, but I don't recall what my answer was previously. I'm traveling at the moment and posting my screenshots is a pain, but it would be interesting to see what their answer is when questioned on how they tested their max speed and came up with 750MB/second. Perhaps they used 8 disks that only gave 93MB/sec each, and never updated their tests.

And actually now I don't recall exactly what you said either, but you did answer it. :) I was searching through other threads and don't recall which one it was specifically - should have bookmarked it. I don't know how they came up with that number but it seems they are mistaken for some reason. It would be interesting to know how they arrived at it - I suspect that the testing was done quite some time ago because many of the drives they listed as compatible have since been EOLed. :)

Am curious to know your thoughts on SATA II vs. SATA III (did some exploring on this also last night, but didn't dig deep enough to get past the primarily SSD references). Your RE4s are SATA II and I'm looking at either them or HGST Ultrastar A7K2000's (1TB) - just don't know if the II --> III difference is worth it or not, and it appears that the options for enterprise III don't go below 2TB/drive. That may be important as I don't know that I want to jump right into 16TB capacity to begin with (8TB is more than enough initially).

I'm willing to make the jump to III if the performance difference from II --> III is worth it for HDDs, and in the III realm am liking the HGST Ultrastar 7K4000 at 2TB because it's their newer Advanced Format Drive (I guess similar to Seagate's ES.2?), and because it sports 2.0 million hours MTBF (vs. Seagate's 1.2m hours). I assume the higher MTBF rating would be a plus for RAID 0. Only issue is, can only seem to find the 7K4000 at 4TB capacity (waaay to much for my purposes at this point). None of the major sellers seem to have the 3TB or 2TB models available. Hmm...

Enjoy your travels! :)
 
And actually now I don't recall exactly what you said either, but you did answer it. :) I was searching through other threads and don't recall which one it was specifically - should have bookmarked it. I don't know how they came up with that number but it seems they are mistaken for some reason. It would be interesting to know how they arrived at it - I suspect that the testing was done quite some time ago because many of the drives they listed as compatible have since been EOLed. :)

Am curious to know your thoughts on SATA II vs. SATA III (did some exploring on this also last night, but didn't dig deep enough to get past the primarily SSD references). Your RE4s are SATA II and I'm looking at either them or HGST Ultrastar A7K2000's (1TB) - just don't know if the II --> III difference is worth it or not, and it appears that the options for enterprise III don't go below 2TB/drive. That may be important as I don't know that I want to jump right into 16TB capacity to begin with (8TB is more than enough initially).

I'm willing to make the jump to III if the performance difference from II --> III is worth it for HDDs, and in the III realm am liking the HGST Ultrastar 7K4000 at 2TB because it's their newer Advanced Format Drive (I guess similar to Seagate's ES.2?), and because it sports 2.0 million hours MTBF (vs. Seagate's 1.2m hours). I assume the higher MTBF rating would be a plus for RAID 0. Only issue is, can only seem to find the 7K4000 at 4TB capacity (waaay to much for my purposes at this point). None of the major sellers seem to have the 3TB or 2TB models available. Hmm...

Enjoy your travels! :)
Thanks!

I don't think there will be any difference between the SATA II or III HDDs. I look to what will work best in terms of data throughput, reliability and warranty. If the goal can be reached with SATA II drives for less money, I'll take that option. Likewise, if it's cheaper to use SATA III and get same or better performance, I'd do that.

Using identical drives is a good practice, of course, so if you're starting with less than eight, consider how you'll source buying more of the same drives later. I started with three RE-4s, using them internally in my Mac Pro while saving for the other five.
 
Thanks!

I don't think there will be any difference between the SATA II or III HDDs. I look to what will work best in terms of data throughput, reliability and warranty. If the goal can be reached with SATA II drives for less money, I'll take that option. Likewise, if it's cheaper to use SATA III and get same or better performance, I'd do that.

Using identical drives is a good practice, of course, so if you're starting with less than eight, consider how you'll source buying more of the same drives later. I started with three RE-4s, using them internally in my Mac Pro while saving for the other five.

Oh yes - after happening upon some info about that, I would definitely use identical drives. I definitely also want to get all 8 up front for the TR8X+. :)

So I spent some time comparing various HDD brand/capacity/SATA version/price/tested on TR8X+ or not/RAID config options and found some interesting options.

All prices I noted were the lowest available based on online retailers that I know/trust, not necessarily the lowest price overall in every case. I'd rather pay a little more going to a trusted retailer than an unknown one and potentially deal with issues. Also all prices reflect new (OEM in most or all cases I think), not refurb or used.

Brands compared: WD, HGST & Seagate

Capacities compared: 2TB & 1TB

Among all the models I looked at, there's not much of a price point difference between SATA II and III. In the 2TB arena the lowest price was a SATA II drive, the HGST Ultrastar A7K2000 @ $200 from buy.com. The other five models I checked (including the WD RE4) ranged anywhere from $216 - $300. Of those other five models, four were SATA III and of course the RE4 is SATA II.

In the 1TB arena, the price point was very close overall between the three models I looked at, with a range of $120 - $131. The RE4 was one of the $120 models, as was the HGST Ultrastar A7K2000, and the Seagate Constellation ES was $131.

All that being said, here's what I'm weighing: Overall performance vs. reliability, present use vs. future use (as it pertains to storage space), and all of these as they pertain to upfront expense vs. long-term expense.

After doing some calculations from formulas on Wikipedia pertaining to potential failure rate in different RAID configs, I saw the advantage of RAID 6 vs. RAID 0 (even though the throughput is less, upwards of 700 mb/s for RAID 6 is very, very good considering the added level of file protection). RAID 6 would probably necessitate using 2TB drives so that I have plenty of disk space in the present as well as the future (12TB total). But the initial cost is higher.

On the other hand, there's RAID 0 with much higher throughput and less upfront expense (e.g. 8 1TB drives), but file protection may be more of a factor because there's no parity (though diligent, daily backing up is a safeguard against data loss). Then again, there's still a question of total space for future use (e.g. 16TB total using 8 2TB drives, vs. 8TB with the 1TB drives), in which case the expense is the same as RAID 6.

At which point, playing field being leveled, if I go with a higher up-front expense then I would either have 12TB and parity, or 16TB and no parity. With both options, I would likely put two or three 4TB Ultrastar 7K4000's in the internal bays for file backup, and of course an SSD for the boot disk.

I'm almost inclined to go the RAID 0 8TB route and think about expansion later, but not sure how I would go about that.

Okay, so enough of me thinking out loud. What do you think?



BTW, of the HDDs that Sans Digital tested for the TR8X+, the following are still available among the ones that are either 2TB or 1TB: HGST Ultrastar 7K3000, Ultrastar A7K2000, and the Western Digital RE4.
 
Of course - what was I thinking? The x16 is one of the 3 OPEN PCIe slots, so of course the Areca card would go there. Wasn't paying attention when I read the spec page on Apple's website. :rolleyes:

Hmm, I wonder... Is there such a thing as an x16 capable RAID controller, and if so would that present a significant enough performance increase to make it worth buying?

Also, the Areca ARC-1880X (according to OWC website) has two 4-channel external SFF-8088 mini-SAS ports. Does that mean that two different arrays are possible off of a single card? Oh, the possibilities... :)

x8 means you can connect up to 8 drives, and x16 means you can connect up to 16 drives. for example, my areca x16 connect 4 SSD in raid 0 for OSX in the CD-ROM bay, 4 HDD in raid 10 for storage in the 4 slider-able bay, and 8 HDD in raid 0 & raid 10 for video editing scratch disk + storage sitting on a 8 bay external case, it is total of 16 drives connected to my raid card.

each mini-SAS ports allow you to connect up to 4 HDD/ SSD, 2 ports mean that you can connect 8 drives in total. you can raid, job them whatever you want. Areca is awesome, it can handle each raid level pretty well, you can even use 2 set of different raid level on the same disks. i have tried raid 0, 5, 6 & 10, but i realized that raid 10 has better performance but safe than 5 nor 6.

for OSX, raid 0 is a must for performace, ppl mentioned raid 0 is not safe, but it doesnt really a matter if you understand how to get your OSX bootable in a hardware raid set.
the only way to get OSX bootable on Areca raid card is COPY (superdumper!) the entire OSX in to the hardware raid set, the OSX will not be bootable if you install the OSX directly on the hardware raid set. guess what, what you need is a health HDD and pre-installed OSX on it, you can also pre-install whatever programs you need in the HDD before superduper!

NOTE: some of the pre-install programs may not be working after copy, but CS5, parelle, final cut pro, cinema 12, browers etc should have no problem.
 
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I use Premiere or After Effects for everything, including sizing video, so I don't know any other software just for up-scale work.

I found this link in a thread I came across after googling "software for upsampling video":

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-instant-hd/

Not sure how it does vs. the sizing method you use in Premiere/After Effects, but it looks very promising. Seems to be exactly what I'm looking for -- unless I don't need it because Premiere/AE has a filter/feature of some sort that already does this...?
 
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