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cocoua

macrumors 65816
May 19, 2014
1,011
626
madrid, spain
Wow the first post is just a copy paste of the Intel adds.

while some claims are true, other are just wrong and other aren’t counting with the future.


1-all pc industry will be arm in future
2- rayzen are 45w and m1 15w
3- rayzen are top CPU vs m1 wich is lower range CPU (wait for the big brother)
3-m1 has nothing to do with the mac games lack problem. It is true m1 makes things worst, but again, as pc move to arm, the problem with macs games would be the same as with macintel or maybe even better.
4- cheaper pc vs expensive mac has been there for ever, but pcs are not a bunch of wires and silicon, they need an OS. This point is so crucial and hard to create that there are ONLY 3 main public OS in the world to rule all personal computers (specific industry computers apart) choose yours.
5- touch in a computer is something not everyone needs/wants (neither pencil) and make thing more expensive. (Check surface pro full specs + keyboard vs macbook pro 16” similar specs)
6- ssd and ram soldered in a expensive machine sucks. This is something I cant understand how UE allows Apple sell computers like that (I understand USA is more permissible with this stuff)
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
while some claims are true, other are just wrong and other aren’t counting with the future.

It doesn't help though if you counter their claims with even more false claims or conjectures...

ssd and ram soldered in a expensive machine sucks. This is something I cant understand how UE allows Apple sell computers like that (I understand USA is more permissible with this stuff)

Apple's focus is on performance and power efficiency, socketed DRAM just won't work here. They are using highly optimized RAM (that is also much more expensive than what you find on RAM sticks) with optimized electrical connection and short signal distances.

SSD, yes, that could be user-replaceable. Except there are issues with that too... Apple designs there systems with certain assumptions about SSD performance and endurance that third-party SSDs might not meet. This is especially true for M1 Macs that have an on-chip SSD controller. So while in theory, Apple could make this stuff upgradeable, you won't like the price they will charge. Not to mention the SSD shortage...
 

TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
The m1 MBP is the best computer i've ever used, in almost every way. Countering to your point, this computer runs much more software than my previous intel MBP ever did, as rosetta 2 works great and I've never had any issues with it, and I can now run my smart light app on my laptop which is super convinient, the alexa app to control speakers, the ios bitwarden app, countless ios controller games, the instagram app, the iOS spotify app with equalizer, i could go on and on...

The battery life is insane, the display is beautiful, the keyboard is the best I've ever used. The trackpad is known to be best in any laptop ever. I can export 4K footage all day long without the fan even being audible. It is blazing fast and responsive.

And as for the SSD 'writing issue', it was literally as simple as switching browsers from Safari to Edge/Firefox and getting a tab discarding extension. That is it. Boom, 1GB / hour writes. That gives me 60 years of SSD life in the worst case possible. And if this SSD reaches the PB+ of writes that older 240GB SSD's were already reaching, i'm looking at 200+ years of SSD life.

So let's see, this laptop is the coolest (literally ;)), best laptop I've ever owned, and it's a first generation product!? So what can it not do.

The ONLY thing that comes to mind is running x86 Windows on Bootcamp. My only purpose for that would be gaming - but I have a windows desktop gaming pc. Anyone knows that any sort of 'serious' windows gaming has to be done at a desk with a mouse and keyboard, or even with a controller, regardless its a stationary activity. So that point is irrelevant to me, and as a decent gaming PC can be built for less than £400 these days for actual PC gaming, it isn't really a major issue to anyone. All the other games I want (including a whole new world of controller compatible ios games, and apple arcade) run perfectly fine on this M1.

I see all the hype of the M1, and owning one after years of owning intel computers (my PC is still intel tho), it truly lives up to all the hype. Absolutely adore my M1 MBP.
 

deaglecat

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2012
638
772
M1 is the future. For those of use who went through the PPC to Intel transition, if you want a Mac then over time the M1 is more future proof.

If you want Windows... then, well you have other "issues".
If you want Linux ... then fair play. I can relate to that. Linux may be possible on M1 hardware.
 

Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
M1 is the future. For those of use who went through the PPC to Intel transition, if you want a Mac then over time the M1 is more future proof.

If you want Windows... then, well you have other "issues".
If you want Linux ... then fair play. I can relate to that. Linux may be possible on M1 hardware.

I see ads from stores all over the place trying to sell the Intel MacBooks with various discounts. I sold my MBP i9 last week, i got $2343 for it. I consider myself lucky.
 
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ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
What is SO great about the M1 macs?
They offer less than Windows counterparts. No real gaming support, no support for other OS natively, no touch and VERY VERY limited app compatibly. Sure its faster than i7 11th gen but AMD processors offer greater performance and around the same battery life as the M1.

Such a mouth breather ??

Touch screens on laptops are stupid and most users forget the feature exists.

x86 will roast your testicles if you even try gaming or video editing on your lap. Your sperms will die and your wife/gf will have to find a new man with M1 laptop and healthy sperms. ?
 

Wizec

macrumors 6502a
Jun 30, 2019
680
778
I have to agree with the OP’s contrast with prior MacBooks. They used low tier CPUs in most configurations and Apple did an abysmal job at optimizing the OS and bundled drivers for the hardware.

Case in point. I have a 2018 MacBook Pro. I installed Windows 10 dual boot via Boot Camp because I do both iOS and Windows development.

In macOS I constantly run into the main issues that people are contrasting the Intel/M1 MacBooks over - poor battery life, noisy fans, super hot chassis and laggy performance/beach balling. And there’s never any RAM pressure. At most I ever have 1 Safari instance open with 2-3 tabs and Xcode open. The other day I was scrolling through an iOS development page at Apple.com and the laptop got almost too hot to hold. Utter garbage OS.

In stark contrast, if I boot into Windows 10, everything flies, the chassis remains ice cold and I easily get 8hr of battery life.

Let’s be honest. The M1 transition has been in the works for years; it didn’t happen overnight. Apple has never done a good job of optimizing for Intel, and lately while M1 was in the works they were laser-focused on Apple silicon/M1 optimization. You can see this in their SOC design. Many of the novel M1 architectural differences were made to fit the OS paradigm. Intel x86 is a poor fit for their OS, they knew it and a few years ago stopped caring since M1 was on the horizon. Trust me, I work for one of the largest software companies in the world. Intel OS development at Apple is in “maintenance mode” and has been for years.

Make macOS truly open source like Linux, and within a year or two you’d have a new kernel that would rock on Intel. M1 might still have the advantage; it’s a really good CPU/SOC, but the delta wouldn’t be nearly as great.

I’m about to buy an M1 Air to continue iOS development. Not because I want to, but because my 2018 Pro literally gets too hot to hold sometimes and battery life under macOS is just that poor.

Oh and before the usual “what extensions and third party apps do you have installed/running”, I’ll head that off. None. I’m a minimalist; parsimony is my middle name. I use what the OS/IDE offers out of the box and make do.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
Can you point out where the Ryzen is faster than the M1?
I don't see anything here, which would prove that point.

Ryzen is indeed faster (up to 20-30%) in some short-running multithreaded benchmarks where it can use it advantage of twice the amount of CPU cores and 2-3x higher PL2. In single-threaded workloads, neither mobile Zen 2 nor mobile Zen 3 has any chance agains M1. Same in prolonged workloads when the throttling kicks in.

P.S. Not to mention that most "faster than M1" Ryzen CPUs are actually 25W parts... that run at 40W or higher for short periods of time.
 
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Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
I have to agree with the OP’s contrast with prior MacBooks. They used low tier CPUs in most configurations and Apple did an abysmal job at optimizing the OS and bundled drivers for the hardware.

Case in point. I have a 2018 MacBook Pro. I installed Windows 10 dual boot via Boot Camp because I do both iOS and Windows development.

In macOS I constantly run into the main issues that people are contrasting the Intel/M1 MacBooks over - poor battery life, noisy fans, super hot chassis and laggy performance/beach balling. And there’s never any RAM pressure. At most I ever have 1 Safari instance open with 2-3 tabs and Xcode open. The other day I was scrolling through an iOS development page at Apple.com and the laptop got almost too hot to hold. Utter garbage OS.

In stark contrast, if I boot into Windows 10, everything flies, the chassis remains ice cold and I easily get 8hr of battery life.

Let’s be honest. The M1 transition has been in the works for years; it didn’t happen overnight. Apple has never done a good job of optimizing for Intel, and lately while M1 was in the works they were laser-focused on Apple silicon/M1 optimization. You can see this in their SOC design. Many of the novel M1 architectural differences were made to fit the OS paradigm. Intel x86 is a poor fit for their OS, they knew it and a few years ago stopped caring since M1 was on the horizon. Trust me, I work for one of the largest software companies in the world. Intel OS development at Apple is in “maintenance mode” and has been for years.

Make macOS truly open source like Linux, and within a year or two you’d have a new kernel that would rock on Intel. M1 might still have the advantage; it’s a really good CPU/SOC, but the delta wouldn’t be nearly as great.

I’m about to buy an M1 Air to continue iOS development. Not because I want to, but because my 2018 Pro literally gets too hot to hold sometimes and battery life under macOS is just that poor.

Oh and before the usual “what extensions and third party apps do you have installed/running”, I’ll head that off. None. I’m a minimalist; parsimony is my middle name. I use what the OS/IDE offers out of the box and make do.

I'm new to MacOS, only been using it since November 2020, but why did Apple switch to Intel in the first place? There was the PowerPC/Risc processor, and then the strange switch to Intel, and now back to an Apple architecture again.
Seems strange. Intel is great on Desktops, I don't argue on that, but it just seems like a really odd move, back in the days.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
I have to agree with the OP’s contrast with prior MacBooks. They used low tier CPUs in most configurations and Apple did an abysmal job at optimizing the OS and bundled drivers for the hardware.

This is simply incorrect. Apple traditionally used highest-tier available CPUs in the respective bracket (for example, they are the only ones that still use 28W Intel CPUs on the 13" model where the rest of the world has moved to slower, cheaper and more ubiquitous 15W models).

Case in point. I have a 2018 MacBook Pro. I installed Windows 10 dual boot via Boot Camp because I do both iOS and Windows development.

In macOS I constantly run into the main issues that people are contrasting the Intel/M1 MacBooks over - poor battery life, noisy fans, super hot chassis and laggy performance/beach balling. And there’s never any RAM pressure. At most I ever have 1 Safari instance open with 2-3 tabs and Xcode open. The other day I was scrolling through an iOS development page at Apple.com and the laptop got almost too hot to hold. Utter garbage OS.

In stark contrast, if I boot into Windows 10, everything flies, the chassis remains ice cold and I easily get 8hr of battery life.

This is very odd since Bootcamp lacks some of the Apple power management drivers. That you get better battery life out of Bootcamp suggests that there is a serious issue with your macOS installation.


Apple has never done a good job of optimizing for Intel

For years, MBP was the choice of "high-performance ultrabook", as it had better cooling and less CPU performance restrictions than the competition. This changed couple of years ago when a) other PC laptop makers have bought up and b) Intel started stagnating, producing hotter and hotter CPUs. But contrary to popular belief, Mac's didn't get any worse. It's just that others got better, so Macs became average.

To say that macOS is not properly optimized for x86 simply does not make any sense. Go look at the Darwin sources before you make such outrageous claims.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
I'm new to MacOS, only been using it since November 2020, but why did Apple switch to Intel in the first place? There was the PowerPC/Risc processor, and then the strange switch to Intel, and now back to an Apple architecture again.
Seems strange. Intel is great on Desktops, I don't argue on that, but it just seems like a really odd move, back in the days.

It was not odd at all. IBM was unable to improve on PowerPC while Intel was delivering great advances. Performance per watt of Intel CPUs back then was much better than PowerPC and Intel roadmap looked much more promising. Switching to Intel was the correct move. If they didn't, Apple would be dead by now.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
I’ll start by mentioning that while I prefer Apple products as my daily drivers, I do still have a Windows computer and a Windows server. So I’m not particularly biased one way or the other.

While I can most certainly see your point regarding things like gaming support and running almost any OS you may wish to with Intel based PC hardware. There’s also no denying that there are more applications available for Windows than there are macOS.

However, I can’t help but think you’re missing the point a bit, or at least glossing over the situation.

Most Mac buyers don’t purchase any Mac system for gaming, certainly not serious gaming, if that’s what they wanted, they’d buy a PC - though I have been using GeForce Now since it started in beta and that takes care of my PC gaming needs on my Mac, sometimes far better than my Windows rig does. I’ll grant you, that’s obviously in part due to my not spending thousands on my Wintel gaming rig to push it beyond what GeForce Now can provide.

I’d also be pretty surprised if most Mac buyers - joe public, not the likes of us - are interested in the least about running a different OS.

As for things such as no touchscreen, well that depends entirely on the individual. Though again, if you wanted that, you wouldn’t necessarily be buying a Mac - though if you have an iPad, you also have a touchscreen Mac thanks to Sidecar. Personally, having owned a Surface Pro (and a couple of pre-surface Windows tablets) and finding myself using the touchscreen almost never, I’m indifferent to its inclusion, or lack there of. I’m much happier with a traditional keyboard and trackpad/mouse setup. Indeed my, now thankfully dead obsession with touchscreen computing, goes way back the the very early days of transfomables and UMPC’s. The reality of those, was again avoiding touch whenever possible.

Then there’s software availability. Yes, there’s no argument that Windows has vastly more of it - but crucially, does that matter?
I’d argue that for the average Mac buyers, not a jot.

I’m far from the average buyer, which is why I still have a Windows system and use Remote Desktop software to access that on my Mac when I need to. But those instances are few and far between. Outside of gaming and using ancient Windows software on one of my 40 odd ancient Windows laptops, I don’t touch my Windows computers.

Every need I have, beyond those mentioned above, personally and professionally can be handled by the wealth of available macOS software. I haven’t encountered a software problem (or lack of) in well over a decade.

So all of that really comes down to the individual, other people have needs/wants which I don’t, fair enough it’s nice to be different. Though I would still argue that people wouldn’t be buying a Mac if those things are what they want from a computer. Seems like a bizarre decision to make.

As for expandability, how long has it been now since we were able to expand the storage or memory of any Apple laptop? I honestly don’t remember offhand. In fact, with the exception of memory in my 27” iMac, I can’t remember the last time I even bothered trying to attempt an upgrade in any Apple consumer system. It’s either been impossible, or so damn convoluted that I just couldn’t be bothered.

Which brings us finally to the M1 and it’s “fairy dust”. While the systems replaced by M1 so far were anything but powerhouses. It is frankly astonishing just how powerful these entry level Apple Silicon systems are. My M1 MacBook Air has replaced my 27” iMac, which I only got three years ago and was (well, is, it’s been banished to storage for now) a decent system, which I genuinely did not expect to be so embarrassingly outclassed by a fan-less, 8GB MacBook Air.

The M1 has blasted through everything I’ve thrown at it. From software development, to video, sound and image editing and everything else. I’ve even been stunned that an ARM computer, virtualising an ARM Windows, which is then emulating X64 code, has been efficient at running a great many of my Steam/Epic games, not to mention the vast majority of other software I’ve tried. I won’t be purchasing the release of Parallels, I don’t need it, but curiosity and having an ARM Windows license anyway, got me curious to play around with it.

All of which rambling brings me to this. Your argument, which obviously contains valid points and indeed my waffling, which may contain a valid point or two are completely moot, they have no real purpose beyond, for me anyway, filling a couple of minutes of time while I’m out having a smoke.

The points raised by us both only serve to highlight how ridiculous it would be for an individual with specific needs/wants, to purchase any computing device which does not meet them. If you wanted a gaming system, or one with a touchscreen, or one which runs Windows software. You’re first thought wouldn’t be - oh, I know, I’m going to get an M1 MacBook/Mini. Not if you had an iota of sense anyway.

On the flip side, if you wanted a silent, fan-less computer with excellent performance, which could run basically any macOS app, and a lot of iOS apps, you wouldn’t think, let’s have a look at the Razer/Dell/whatever website.

Beyond fuelling debate and giving the bored among we forum visitors something to do for a few minutes, this thread and of course, my post, is pretty pointless. What’s probably more interesting is to discuss the future Apple Silicon systems, because if the M1, which is a very low power, entry-level slice of silicon can perform as well as it does, then the future is going to be very exciting indeed. Think I’ll go look for one of those threads - maybe after my morphine has settled down a bit, because man, that was a lot of blathering :D
 

CheesePuff

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2008
1,456
1,580
Southwest Florida, USA
For me the answer is simple and makes your recommendation at the end of your post a moot point: how do I compile macOS and iOS apps and support and manage them in their respective App Stores using a Windows machine? The answer is you cannot and will not be able to, so a M1 Mac it is for me.
 

Mr.Blacky

Cancelled
Jul 31, 2016
1,880
2,583
Ryzen is indeed faster (up to 20-30%) in some short-running multithreaded benchmarks where it can use it advantage of twice the amount of CPU cores and 2-3x higher PL2. In single-threaded workloads, neither mobile Zen 2 nor mobile Zen 3 has any chance agains M1. Same in prolonged workloads when the throttling kicks in.

P.S. Not to mention that most "faster than M1" Ryzen CPUs are actually 25W parts... that run at 40W or higher for short periods of time.
But on the specific site OP linked to, the M1 is faster in every benchmark there. So I still don't get, why he claimed the Ryzen chip he mentioned is faster?
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
They offer less than Windows counterparts. No real gaming support, no support for other OS natively, no touch and VERY VERY limited app compatibly.
I am PRETTY SURE the M1 MacBook Air is able to run games like League of Legends under Rosetta FAR BETTER than a dual core i3, 4GB of RAM, Intel integrated graphics Microsoft Surface Pro 7 - which is about the same price.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
But on the specific site OP linked to, the M1 is faster in every benchmark there. So I still don't get, why he claimed the Ryzen chip he mentioned is faster?

I don't know why OP does any of what they do, can't make too much sense of what they are saying ether. Regardless, CPU monkey is a garbage site with zero reliability and very little technical information. They just copy benchmarks from the web (without any validation) and guess the rest.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
1-all pc industry will be arm in future
No possible way of that ever happening.
2- rayzen are 45w and m1 15w
So?

3-m1 has nothing to do with the mac games lack problem.
I agree. It's the Mac's lack of compatibility, but then again, they don't care about that as it's its own niche.

4- cheaper pc vs expensive mac has been there for ever, but pcs are not a bunch of wires and silicon, they need an OS. This point is so crucial and hard to create that there are ONLY 3 main public OS in the world to rule all personal computers (specific industry computers apart) choose yours.
There's more than 3, but there's only 1 on most of the computers, Windows. This is also why the PC industry will never be all ARM. 77% were Windows in 2020.

5- touch in a computer is something not everyone needs/wants (neither pencil) and make thing more expensive. (Check surface pro full specs + keyboard vs macbook pro 16” similar specs
That I agree with, touch is not that important and I personally don't like it, nor do I buy touch machines unless it's the only way I can get something that fits everything else I need.

6- ssd and ram soldered in a expensive machine sucks. This is something I cant understand how UE allows Apple sell computers like that (I understand USA is more permissible with this stuff)
It really sucks if you expect to upgrade machines. Even in the Windows world, upgrading a machine is odd. I haven't upgraded a PC in years. If it stops doing the job needed, we buy a new PC. (not talking about gamers, talking about business!)

What I like about MacOS is it's handling of the screen and screen scaling, it's a dream compared to Windows and why I use a Mac at home, and for the most part, the M1 Mac laptops still do that quite well, even though they are a V1 product and I'm quite impressed by that. (Wish they came with better LCD's though) And definitely more RAM! 16G is low end. The SSD writing usage is a non issue for me.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
How do I run MAC software natively on a AMD computer/laptop?
You can run Big Sur (intel version) in a VMWare VM on an AMD. :) It actually does better than you would think. Not to mention it would be a way for Mac people that still want to run 32-bit Mac software, because you can run Catalina that way too.

No x86/x64 emulation product yet on the M1 is my biggest, and pretty much my only gripe with the M1 Macs. I run a lot of different stuff and I need that versatility.
 
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