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Does the Mac Pro really need to wow you to make you buy it.

chuckle. at least 25% of the traffic on these forums is about adding stuff to old boxes. A significant number those folks aren't going to buy regardless. There are a certain fraction here advocate for "wow" so that either resale value goes down short term ( they hope to buy in some massive sell off ) or that the value of a used Mac Pro in the future will be worth the "higher than average used price" they pay later.

The other factor where there is a disconnect in that in previous decades features showed up first on the Mac Pro class boxes. 1GbE , FW800 , dual cores , quad cores , etc. Now the features don't really flow in that direction much anymore. The XServe had a SSD on card several years back as the MBA picked up last year or so, but that's about it.


. As for rumours speculating specs its not hard to do yourself if you look at Intel and AMD/Nvidia roadmaps.

Again, "back in the old days" Apple did their own chipsets so there was a little "surprise we are not follow the general PC market food chain" they could slide into Macs. But yes now they fully buy the general PC market components. It is mostly all the same stuff.
 
Can you guys think of something that would make us go "wow"?

A couple ....

First, there is a decent chance it will be "Wow, there was no Mac Pro intro in the WWDC dog and pony show. "


As I said previously making Mac Pro's SSD across the board as the default configuration would be unexpected, but would probably produce some "wow" benchmarks between 2010 and 2012 Mac Pro models.

Another would be Apple somehow leveraging the RAID controller in the C600 chipset so that all Mac Pros effectively had a RAID card built in. [ Yeah would be limited but they could retire their RAID card as having something roughly equivalent built in would be "new". ] It isn't so much "wow" that hasn't been done before, but "wow" Apple is serious ( or 'Apple gets it' if a bit more skeptical. ) [ Unless Intel's RSTe technology is really only Windows specific this is more a problem of very low level driver software. ]


There are several others that are "Wow, why did they do that? "

Go to 2.5" drive sleds only. [ Folks hoping for 16TB of data ( 4 x 4TB) inside in the short term dismayed. ]

Go to one 1GbE socket [ perhaps offset by adding a 802.11ac abilities but still ... ]

Go to no ODDs [ the Optical Jihad consumes the Mac Pro. Likely to loose at least 5.25" bay though. ]
 
Biggest surprise is it actually being launched. It's WWDC not MacWorld. I'm guessing they'll spend the whole time on iOS :mad:
 
First, there is a decent chance it will be "Wow, there was no Mac Pro intro in the WWDC dog and pony show. "

True.

Another would be Apple somehow leveraging the RAID controller in the C600 chipset so that all Mac Pros effectively had a RAID card built in.

Yep, that would be a nice surprise

Go to 2.5" drive sleds only.

Nice surprise would be to replace one of the OB with 4 sleds for 2.5" drives. 4 * 2.5", and 4 * 3.5" would be a very easy, cheap and significant "upgrade" to the basic design.

Go to no ODDs

Hope not...

Well, we might see some surprises after all. Nothing really Wow-worthy, but still...

Loa
 
Biggest surprise is it actually being launched. It's WWDC not MacWorld. I'm guessing they'll spend the whole time on iOS :mad:

No. they are likely to spend time on iOS , OS X , and iCloud. Three major APIs that they want developers to use. If iOS runs extremely long that would likely only be because.

a. they haven't previously demoed it.
b. if believe the recent rumors, there are substantially large new AppleTV elements to iOS. ( or can think of it as an minor iOS variant. )

Shocking though to spend an entire keynote talking about OS and APIs at developers conference. *cough*

It wouldn't be surprising if the Macs were a normal "tuesday" press release. Or perhaps a Monday morning press release.
 
Nice surprise would be to replace one of the OB with 4 sleds for 2.5" drives. 4 * 2.5", and 4 * 3.5" would be a very easy, cheap and significant "upgrade" to the basic design.

8 is likely too many. 6 would be a step up, but still make a larger group of folks happier.
Two issues bandwidth and thermals.

Bandwidth

" ... a baseline –A model with four SATA 3Gb/s ports and six SATA 6Gb/s ports, four of which are tied to the SCU. ..."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xeon-e5-2687w-benchmark-review,3149-3.html

Apple is likely using the C602 ( -A model) version without SAS support so can use the 4 connectors on the SCU as 6 Gb/s SATA. The non-SCU portion of the chipset only has 2 6GB/s SATA units. The other four at 3GB/s.

If Apple attaches the SCU unit to the 3.5" drive sleds. Then there are only 2 6Gb/s SATA channels to hook to. I doubt Apple would play the "mix and match" design where somehow have to make a distinction for users. The majority of 2.5" drive users are going to be SSD folks. Most of the SSDs folks are going to be using over next 4-6 years are going to be 6Gb/s variants. So just 2 sleds for 2 6Gb/s connections.


If Apple uses the C604 ( -B model ) they would still have SAS ability in the 4 3.5" sleds for folks moving old SAS drives up that were using the RAID card in that configuration. But they are still capped at just 2 6Gb/s SATA connections. That also would probably cap any additional 2.5" bays at two.


I think they won't use all of the SATA connections. That's alot of traffic to pump through the chipset if also have low latency traffic of USB 3.0 and Firewire 800 also pumping through the same DMI link. The problem with the C600 design is that can oversubscribe the the link. The 606 and 608 ( -D -T) versions obviously do it (i.e, need for x4 PCI-e side channel to CPU), but the others also if fully leverage the 8 PCI-e links also hanging off the chipset with very high speed, low latency I/O .


My guess would be that it would go something like this.

one Superdrive -- 3Gb/s SATA
two external locking 2.5" sleds (**) -- each on 6Gb/s SATA
four 3.5" sleds -- attached to SCU unit (either 3Gb/s SAS or 6Gb/s SATA )

one mSATA card socket on motherboard (**) -- 3Gb/s SATA

So two "left over" SATA connections left unhooked.

(**) both somewhat borrowed from XServe.

External 2.5" sleds are nice if have Mac Pro mounted in an rack swapping out failed HDD without having to unrack the unit. They can also be nice if moving 2.5" drives from camera recorders to Mac Pro .

A small SDD mounted inside the box is good for a diskless server box. [ yeah there is alot of bulk to the Mac Pro to be a diskless file serving box. But it could host PCI-e cards that connect to the storage. Similarly could be host to a OpenCL GPGPU cards as a computational server. ]. It also avoids having the OS/Apps drive on the SCU if have all drives stored internally with no external access . Also, some folks won't like even lockable external sleds.


If Apple wanted to kill the remaining Superdrive , then perhaps a SATA USM interface. SATA USM modules haven't had much uptake (Seagate GoFlex only major usage so far), but that might be good for one more external "drive socket", but not sure if they'd want to put that on the core chipset controllers. eSATA also is somewhat better isolated on a discrete controller if they even went there. Extremely doubtful they add a SATA controller if they put Thunderbolt on the box. Just plain doubtful they will add a SATA controller on even if they don't. :)


Thermals

8 drives is a significant amount of heat to get rid of. It isn't like the GPU and CPU are getting significantly cooler.

Plus there is pressure to shorten the case a bit. The Mac Pro has "front to back" cooling. If decrease the frontal area then gets harder to use larger, slower fans.

I think Apple will move some of the 3.5" sleds around to the old ODD space that the two 2.5" drives sled don't move into. That shift will be to do something more in the thermal/power control. In turn, opens the thermal envelope for some hotter GPU cards.

Opening a window for two 190W cards would probably be better than two more drive sleds. If folks really need "bulk" storage in the short term that actually better to do outside the box. High speed, low latency GPU access is much harder to move outside the box.

----------

I was more excited before I read Cieplinski's blog.

Apple could release on Tuesday like any other Tuesday when they usually do with press releases. That the "whole show" was going to be warped into a Macworld..... that never was the case.

The vast majority of developers who are at WWDC are there for iOS6. That has little to do with Mac releases. Mac releases have slide to June because Intel (and AMD/Nvidia ) slid hardware into late Spring. They just happen to be around the same time. Apple reserved the date for WWDC long before Intel's roadmap went slid almost a quarter along its timeline.

There was no long term plan to make this WWDC a "MacWorld".... so it likely isn't going to be a "MacWorld". That doesn't mean new Macs aren't going to come out when the parts and software are ready.
 
If I was going to redo the Mac Pro from an enterprise IT persepctive,
I would get rid of half the PCIe slots. I have never seen more than 3 cards in a Mac Pro, including Video.
I'd ditch the optical drive.
I'd take advantage of the whole thunderbolt thing to ditch having a discrete video card and instead integrate a workstation level card with the board.
Keep the number of drive bays and GBe the same, build in raid support and make the case smaller.
 
If I was going to redo the Mac Pro from an enterprise IT persepctive,

The above is almost exactly why Jobs expressed this sentiment at a earlier AllThingsDigital conference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1srU6Z77jfc#t=12s

The majority of Mac Pro's aren't deployed in a "enterprise" (i.e., big, bureaucratic, centralized business ) IT context.


I would get rid of half the PCIe slots. I have never seen more than 3 cards in a Mac Pro, including Video.

4/2 ==> 2 2 < 3 . ( '... and sometimes they are confused' Steve Jobs. )

I'd ditch the optical drive.

One of them, probably. Both seems rather extreme for such a big box.
At least for this round.


I'd take advantage of the whole thunderbolt thing to ditch having a discrete video card and instead integrate a workstation level card with the board.

Like the iMac ? By the way, Thunderbolt doesn't really provide an advantage of ditching the GPU PCI-e card. It is easier to implement Thunderbolt with the graphics embedded. However, embedded graphics doesn't obviate having a GPU PCI-e card. GPUs do more than just graphics these day so having more then one even with just one monitor does have some advantages.

What is missing here is whether Mac Pro workloads have a need for the functionality/computational abilities of the GPU PCI-e cards removing from the solution space.


Keep the number of drive bays and GBe the same, build in raid support and make the case smaller.

A major component of the case volume is the total thermal and space required by the CPU and PCI-e cards. Most of the "push" for a much smaller case is often just really indirection for a "cheaper" box.
 
turning back

... I was plotting my return to Windows as my primary OS. Windows 7 and I get along rather well.

Since then Microsoft has shown not only its ability but its passion to ruin Windows and Apple is apparently not forgetting about those of use use like powerful, user-configurable computers. Mountain Lion looks like a real improvement over Lion. My what difference a single year makes!

----------

How anyone could turn back to windows is beyond me. Even Windows7 "Vast" "Improvements" are so inconsistent and unrefined as to be infuriating. And I would know, I have to use it all day every day. When I get home to my Lion machine I use for freelance I constantly find myself asking "Can it really be that much better?" As I sit there using it, and thinking about it for a couple minutes, I realize once again, yes... Yes indeed it can.
 
The above is almost exactly why Jobs expressed this sentiment at a earlier AllThingsDigital conference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1srU6Z77jfc#t=12s

The majority of Mac Pro's aren't deployed in a "enterprise" (i.e., big, bureaucratic, centralized business ) IT context.




4/2 ==> 2 2 < 3 . ( '... and sometimes they are confused' Steve Jobs. )



One of them, probably. Both seems rather extreme for such a big box.
At least for this round.




Like the iMac ? By the way, Thunderbolt doesn't really provide an advantage of ditching the GPU PCI-e card. It is easier to implement Thunderbolt with the graphics embedded. However, embedded graphics doesn't obviate having a GPU PCI-e card. GPUs do more than just graphics these day so having more then one even with just one monitor does have some advantages.

What is missing here is whether Mac Pro workloads have a need for the functionality/computational abilities of the GPU PCI-e cards removing from the solution space.




A major component of the case volume is the total thermal and space required by the CPU and PCI-e cards. Most of the "push" for a much smaller case is often just really indirection for a "cheaper" box.

actually I am in a workplace where we do use a lot of Mac Pros. They are the single biggest box outside of our server room. All of the windows desktops are a more manageable size. The Mac Pros, well I am not carrying those up and down any stairs, let me put it that way.
Like I said before, the genesis of the Mac Pro's huge from factor was the G5 cooling system. (I still have a few of those around running linux!)
When they went Intel the moved the power supply down and gave us more drive bays. Now they have ditched opticals on almost all the other macs (except for half the MBPs and the imac).
I use opticals, but rarely. I really don't see the need for all of the slots, all of the optical drive bays, and so many hard drive bays when folks (espcecially mac folks) seem to like external storage better.
I think integrated workstation class video will get us to thunderbolt on a mac pro faster. If they can do a decent thermal design it shouldnt matter if its a card or on the motherboard. Most Mac Pro users probably never upgrade the card anyway.
 
actually I am in a workplace where we do use a lot of Mac Pros. They are the single biggest box outside of our server room. All of the windows desktops are a more manageable size. The Mac Pros, well I am not carrying those up and down any stairs, let me put it that way.

If the workloads being run on the Mac Pro are larger (computationally , memory , I/O , etc) than the Windows boxes then the 'as large as server room boxes' shouldn't be a problem.

But this is typical large IT. "Why can't it be like all of the rest of the boxes". Everything homogenized to the largest extent possible. For instance if blindly following the "users must have boxes with slots" dogma then probably will deploy Mac Pros were they aren't needed.

Like I said before, the genesis of the Mac Pro's huge from factor was the G5 cooling system. (I still have a few of those around running linux!)

Roughly, the same size problem is still there. the PPC970MP were -75-100W each
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_970#PowerPC_970MP

Intel's P4's weren't doing much better. (see chart on this circa 2005 page http://www.anandtech.com/show/1702/3 ). The P4 was 100W per CPU package.

The single package 3500/3600/E5 1600 are perhaps better than a pair of those, but the GPUs are now at upwards 2-4 times bigger power/thermal hogs than 6 years ago.

The problem hasn't gone away for those just as equally on the upper 10 percentile of computational needs if in a single user box.


I think integrated workstation class video will get us to thunderbolt on a mac pro faster. If they can do a decent thermal design it shouldnt matter if its a card or on the motherboard. Most Mac Pro users probably never upgrade the card anyway.

Two key markets missing though. That's GPU+GPGPU combos. For example Nvidia's Maximus

http://www.nvidia.com/object/maximus.html

Although that is bit closer to maximum spend. But these kind of combos are going to expand in use over next couple of years.

However, yes. Apple could come out with a E3 Xeon solution that would probably be around 2/3 the size of the Mac Pro. There are iGPU so could leave the single 16x socket empty. And adding Thunderbolt would be easy to do since video is on the motherboard.

I doubt they'd price it to heavily overlap with the iMac but even $1,899 or 1,999 would break the "over $2K" psychological some folks have.


However, for the most part Apple is already offering a solution for those. Either Mac Mini ( if the user workloads are generic PC office worker tasks) or the iMac. The problem is more so the serviceability of those, but the Mac Pro is the wrong match if workload isn't the primary motivator for the box.
 
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