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John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
None of those are natural light macros. There all flash (or mostly all) and with a flash you don't need IS or a tripod.
Uh, yeah, that's the point. You aren't going to get the bug shots that the OP said he wanted "like bugs and dragon fly etc." without a lot of light and a good bit of shutter speed (i.e. not 1/15). You can try, but macro at f/2.8 has a depth of field that is so thin that even the tiniest bit of camera shake is going to move your focus point away from your subject. Breathing can take the shot from focused to unfocused. It's a zen experience, for sure.

Likewise, you aren't going to get enough light and be able to hold the camera that still to get a tack sharp bugs eye with standard autofocus and ambient light.

Nothing personal, I just wonder how much time you've actually spent trying to get tack sharp macro shots. It's a lot trickier than it sounds, even with the benefit of flash or a tripod.

Well, I find it very effective. If you have to shoot handheld, the IS does help. It makes it a very versatile lens.
I agree. From my short stint with a borrowed copy of the IS version, I could see how it helped esp. in the 1:2 to 1:4 range (botanicals). Not so much at 1:1. But for general use, the IS version is in a different category.

Oh, one more benefit of the IS version: it has a focus limiter switch, which is very nice when you use autofocus.
The non-IS version also has a focus limiter switch:
  • 0.31m - ∞
  • 0.48m - ∞
I just wish it would do this instead:
  • 0.31m - 1.00m
  • 0.48m - ∞
 

Phrasikleia

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2008
4,082
403
Over there------->
The non-IS version also has a focus limiter switch:
  • 0.31m - ∞
  • 0.48m - ∞
I just wish it would do this instead:
  • 0.31m - 1.00m
  • 0.48m - ∞

Ah, OK. That doesn't seem like a very useful limiter. The IS version has:

FULL
0.5m-∞
0.3m-0.5m

So: whole range, macro range, or normal-tele range.

Anyway, as for which version is right for the OP, you have to ask yourself whether you need the IS, the weather sealing, or any of the more minor benefits. If you think you'll always be shooting on a tripod in dry conditions, you can save yourself quite a lot of money.
 

dllavaneras

macrumors 68000
Feb 12, 2005
1,948
2
Caracas, Venezuela
I just read this thread, and since I saw my name come up, I'll try to answer a few of the questions, and add my insight with a few examples. I'll only be talking about outdoor (natural habitat) macros here, since that's what I know more about.

There are two main lighting techniques for animal* macros: flash and ambient light. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and your results will vary greatly depending on several factors, the most important ones being amount of light available, DOF required and animal you're taking pics of.

* by "animal" I mean any small animal you'd like to take pics of, although my examples will be mostly small arthropods, since that's my field of research. The same techniques apply to pretty much any small thing you want to photograph.

Getting a good exposure using ambient light gives you a picture that is practically identical to the one you see through the viewfinder. The results with flash photography are not always what you see through the viewfinder, since the light source is different. Let's have a brief look at the pros and cons of each technique. Keep in mind that this is based on my own experience, and I have worked far more with flash than with ambient light.

Ambient light: Like I mentioned above, the results of getting a good exposure are very similar to what you see right before taking the pic. If you choose your light (time of day, shade/sun) correctly, you avoid those pesky highlights of flashes. Some bugs, like Sphinx Moths, suffer from red eye when you take pictures using a flash from a close distance. You won't have that problem with ambient light. It's usually a soft, nice light.

Of course, not all is perfect, and ambient light has very important cons. One is the shutter speed necessary to achieve a decent exposure. Since in macros you need at least the eyes (and preferably the head) of the bug in focus, you need to increase your DOF as much as you can. At 1:1 we're talking barely 4-5mm @f10, so your shutter speed has to be really slow to get a decent exposure*. This means that for fast moving critters, you're screwed. You'll get a blurry picture even if you have a solid tripod, because bugs, no matter how slow they may be, will move. Also, you don't always have the time to set up a tripod (the bug may run/fly away), and even if you do, a sturdy tripod is always at least 30 cm above ground. Considering that many bugs are at ground level, getting the same perspective on all your shots will get boring really quick.

*You could always use a high ISO, but in my experience, it's not worth it. Granted, I have a lowly XTi and I try to avoid anything beyond ISO 400, but still, I doubt you'll want to use ISO 3200-6400 on a regular basis.

Flash: Using a flash for macro lets you freeze the moment, and achieve the highest sync speed your camera can handle. You can take pics of fast bugs and get a much, much higher keepers rate than with ambient light. It's a constant light source, that gives consistent results regardless of being used on a sunny day or at midnight. It's easily modifiable, regarding light output/exposure, and you can use 1, 2 or as many light sources as you want/can. Nevertheless, it's an added bulk, and it's an extra set of settings you have to fiddle with to get the shot. Sure, you can just set your flash to 0 EV and let the ETTL run the photo shoot, but that's like setting your DSLR on full auto. Also, you'll soon find that many of your shots will have a pitch black background. I can go on, but this is a thread about the pros and cons of lens IS, not a flash/ambient light debate. :p Nevertheless, I find it important to point this out, since I hope it will help the OP decide if the lens with IS fits his/her needs better than a lens and a flash unit.

Today was actually a very good day for pics regarding this subject (ambient vs flash light). These next two pics show the difference between ambient light (1st pic) and a ring flash (2nd pic).




The difference is subtle, but there's more contrast in the flash pic, not to mention that it was taken @f10 and ISO 200, while the other one was taken @f6.3 and ISO 400 on a very bright, sunny afternoon. The DOF difference is noticeable in an 8x10 pic (which I print at very often).

I am thinking mostly doing outside, like bugs and dragon fly etc.

In general terms, bugs and (particularly) dragonflies are very active, fast-moving critters. Yes, you might find a slow beetle or a perched bee, but in my experience (here in the tropics, where the temperatures are usually warm), those moments are few and far between. Even if you do take advantage of them, you'll soon find that the bugs you can take slow-shutter pics of are always going to be the same, and you'll get bored of always taking the same shots.

For example, take this pic of a recently emerged butterfly. It was almost still on the tree, but the wings were moving slowly. An ambient light pic would have called for at least a 1s exposure, rendering the body sharp but the wing a blur.



The IS should be a very nice feature for those who shoot spiders, frogs, and such in the forest where often one can't use a tripod. Some spiders and frogs won't stand still waiting for you to set a tripod.

IS would help in getting a slower shutter speed, which would in turn mean more ambient light, which is great if you don't want a black background every time, but it also means more possibility for camera shake, which leads to a blurry pic. And it's very true, most critters will not stand still for more than a second or two. This little lizard barely let me grab this shot before scurrying off. I was also flat on my belly; there's no way I could have set up a tripod, even if I had the time.



[*]@AlaskaMoose: I believe that dllavaneras frequently uses both a ringlight *and* an off-camera speedlite via Stroboframe bracket on a Rebel to get sufficient light and shutter speeds for his amazing (!) bug shots. That starts to move into heavier rig territory; YMMV.

First of all, thank you for your comment! I'm glad (and flattered!) that you like my pics. I was using the dual flash setup a while back, but lately I've been favoring just the ring flash, mostly because I have to chase bugs in tight spaces. It's not the weight I mind as much as the size. Nevertheless, I've been practicing different lighting techniques using only the ring flash, and thus avoiding the black backgrounds. That way I went from this:



To this:



The first picture was taken on a sunny afternoon, in the shade. The second was taken on a midnight hike last month.

None of those are natural light macros. There all flash (or mostly all) and with a flash you don't need IS or a tripod.

Exactly. Only recently I've started incorporating ambient light into my macro photography techniques, but it simply does not work as an only light source for me. I need a consistent light source to freeze moving insects, and thus I've only rarely felt the need for IS. Even then, it's only for framing purposes (hanging upside down from a branch while holding out your camera setup with one hand introduces shake. IS would be great in those situations).

Here is a pic that uses both ambient and flash light:



As you can see, the ambient light creates much more defined shadows below the skipper, while the flash avoids having one side horribly underexposed (and allows a fast shutter speed).

I will continue to prefer flash for my macros (I use a ring flash) over ambient light, since I shoot in adverse light situations. Also, because I can freeze movement, I can get shots like this:



The dragonfly devoured the leafhopper in less than 10 seconds. There's no way I could have gotten that shot using only ambient light.

This very long reply was done with one thing in mind: let you know about the main limitations in macrophotography regarding your light source. IS will help you get more ambient light (and thus more uniformly lit pics), but it will not freeze motion. I'd rather have a tack sharp shot with a black background than a evenly lit blur.

If you feel that IS will help you get the shots you plan to take, then go ahead and purchase it. It will help a great deal with portraits and macros from a long (50cm-1m) distance, if the light is good. If what you want is to freeze running bugs and capture fast-paced action, then I suggest you get the USM non-IS version of the lens and a flash. I got a ring flash and the old USM 100mm macro lens, and you can see what you can achieve with this setup in my gallery.

The clarity , if you are just starting, is indistinguishable from the L version

And what if you're not just starting? Is the difference noticeable in print/screen, or is it only a slight difference at 100% noticeable only by pixel-peepers? I was just wondering if it's enough to get me to upgrade. IS alone is not enough to make me get it. It would have to be at least twice as good.
 

Phrasikleia

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2008
4,082
403
Over there------->
What a great post, dllavaneras! For anyone who wants to specialize in bugs, here are all the answers for them. Your post here is too good to be buried in a lens-decision thread!
 

Dextor143

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 28, 2008
425
35
USA
I have canon 450D, it has maximum ISO of 1600 but I am learning not to use too much ISO as it bring noise to the picture.

Since you said bugs will be moving and using camera on Tv as fast shutter speed i get very dark pictures and the only way I can get them bright is to increase the shutter speed and then will make the picture blurry,.
Is there a trick to use it without getting dark pics on fast shutter speed?

thanks
 

flosseR

macrumors 6502a
Jan 1, 2009
746
0
the cold dark north
yea, as mentioned.. a ring flash :)

I think in the end it depends on how much money you want to spend on the macro lens, plain and simple.

the 100mm USM can be had for half of that of the L IS version and while the optical quality is very little (unless you pixel peep I guess), you have to figure out whats worth to you.

I started out with a D90 and a Sigma 105mm and I have to say I shot just as nice Macro's without IS and even USM or any kind of silent motor, than now with the Canon USM. The other thing that I noticed, Once you get to a 1:1 ratio it becomes more difficult to "chase" after insects so you will become patient and wait. This also follows to the fact that you start "hunting" with manual focus instead of AF because at that distance AF tends to hunt quite a bit.

but in the end , starting out with an L glass.. if you can afford it.. why not?
 

flosseR

macrumors 6502a
Jan 1, 2009
746
0
the cold dark north
And what if you're not just starting? Is the difference noticeable in print/screen, or is it only a slight difference at 100% noticeable only by pixel-peepers? I was just wondering if it's enough to get me to upgrade. IS alone is not enough to make me get it. It would have to be at least twice as good.

I would guess that if you print them Very large and have a high resolution sensor (5d mk2?) you will notice a difference when pixel peeping and printing, otherwise I honestly doubt it.
 

dllavaneras

macrumors 68000
Feb 12, 2005
1,948
2
Caracas, Venezuela
What a great post, dllavaneras!

Thank you! :)

With your last shot, were you using extension tubes? If so how much extension? It's a great capture!

Thanks! No extension tubes, just the 100mm macro @ 1:1 on my 400D. No cropping, either.

Is there a trick to use it without getting dark pics on fast shutter speed?
yea, as mentioned.. a ring flash :)

I never said "get a ring flash". It's merely what I use to take my pictures, and as such I can talk about its strengths and weaknesses. You can get perfectly acceptable shots using the camera's built-on flash and the 100mm macro. I took my macro lens on a camping trip, but due to space limitations, I couldn't take my ring flash. I decided to use the built-in flash, and these were some of the pictures:

7q1x9lqsxus4ucu.jpg

xophxq2vyppmmaz.jpg

iew9zxnoohtbtyp.jpg

pbo4nw4ool4au6g.jpg


As you can see, the pictures came out pretty good, even in several different situations (first pic is uncropped @1:1, the second is @1:1.5, the third is @1:3-ish and the last one is cropped @1:1). Of course, the light is harsh, like a spotlight, and shiny surfaces will give you headaches (like the dragonfly's compound eyes), but you can most definitely get by while you save up for a ring flash. Just keep in mind that it'll drain your battery faster, it'll strobe if you can't get focus and it takes a second or two to be ready to fire again. On the other hand, if your subject is not shiny, it makes for a decent fill light in a pinch.
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
FWIW, I was the one who said "get a ring flash". I love mine and can't imagine doing 1:1 without one. As always, YMMV.

I never said "get a ring flash". It's merely what I use to take my pictures, and as such I can talk about its strengths and weaknesses. You can get perfectly acceptable shots using the camera's built-on flash and the 100mm macro. I took my macro lens on a camping trip, but due to space limitations, I couldn't take my ring flash. I decided to use the built-in flash, and these were some of the pictures:

...

Of course, the light is harsh, like a spotlight, and shiny surfaces will give you headaches (like the dragonfly's compound eyes), but you can most definitely get by while you save up for a ring flash. Just keep in mind that it'll drain your battery faster, it'll strobe if you can't get focus and it takes a second or two to be ready to fire again. On the other hand, if your subject is not shiny, it makes for a decent fill light in a pinch.
For anyone lurking, remember that the on-camera flash works differently in M mode vs. Av or Tv. All of the images above were shot in manual mode.

The differences between flash on manual vs flash on Av or Tv is explained pretty well here (the camera models on this link are a bit dated, but the information is still valid): http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html#confusion. The author has a book dedicated to Canon Speedlite flash coming out soon, I have it on pre-order and might post a review if it turns out to be any good.

There is also a fairly good article on fill flash basics at the Canon DLC; it's dedicated to the topic of balancing fill light with ambient light (and touches just a bit on FEC) but it doesn't go into flash using manual mode. http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=106

AFAIK, the best resource is still to go out and try everything to see how different modes and settings affect pictures that are shot in different lighting. Back when I took basic film photography in college we spent a semester doing exactly that: documenting how different film types (now ISOs) and lighting/shutterspeed/aperture combinations worked together. That is still the approach that best teaches basic photography skills, IMO.
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,559
13,408
Alaska
I have canon 450D, it has maximum ISO of 1600 but I am learning not to use too much ISO as it bring noise to the picture.

Since you said bugs will be moving and using camera on Tv as fast shutter speed i get very dark pictures and the only way I can get them bright is to increase the shutter speed and then will make the picture blurry,.
Is there a trick to use it without getting dark pics on fast shutter speed?

thanks
LOW ISO, ring flash, and AV (or M) instead of Tv. Use Tv on a street with low light to show people moving on a blur.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,871
908
Location Location Location
I am thinking mostly doing outside, like bugs and dragon fly etc.

I dont think I will be walking with tripod all the time but can you tell me if IS really important?

For macro? No.

If you want to use it for anything else, such as portraits or just general photography where you need the reach and a fairly large aperture, then yes.


And it's amazing how good those photos (above) are!!!
 

bzollinger

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2005
542
3
I think for the price I'd go with the non-is version. I've been considering the tamron 90mm macro. According to reviews it's as sharp as the canons and less expensive than both!
 
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