Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
2,407
14
Oregon coast
Thanks, Phrasikleia-- a very thorough answer to many questions. One more...;) (actually...several)
When you say take an 18mp file and "normalize it" to 12mp in order to compare with a file from a 12mp sensor, are you saying that each camera, respectively, would produce an 18mp file and a 12mp file (RAW?) When I check my RAW files, the sizes can vary from 10.1mp to 12.4mp as .NEF files using 12-bit conversion and well over 15mp using 14-bit conversion, and I also have the options of several types of RAW file compression, including lossless and uncompressed... all which would give me different file sizes... so, the question is... how do you normalize, let's say, a file from your 18mp sensor camera and one from my 12.4mp sensor camera. I know you don't crop because the sensors are very similar in size, although the Nikon crop sensor is slightly larger than the Canon. So, what's the formula? Is it a ratio of one sensor mp over the other? Because of differences in file size, depending on the particular image, 12/14bit RAW, compressed/uncompressed, wouldn't that present an inconsistent result for normalization. Then there's the matter of sensitivity, like if one camera (fewer megapixel) had a larger dynamic range, thus more shadow detail and highlight detail in a given image than the higher megapixel camera -- which would actually produce detail never seen in the higher resolution camera. Nothing will bring that detail out in a sensor if it can't capture it, regardless of how many pixels are there.

I understand in principle what you're saying about the original 18mp sensor image, if "normalized" to the 12.4 mp sensor image output by discarding some data, would still contain more detail, but that's where I get lost. The way my non-digital mind works is this: You have a real-life scene before you (unlimited pixel density there, if you can think of it like that.) The two cameras record the scene on their respective sensors. One with more pixels can resolve more detail from the scene at 100%. Now, to normalize that sensor to an equivalent 12.4 mp file, something has to go... some megapixels. Wouldn't that be as if the 12.4 mp sensor recorded whatever was on the 18 mp sensor, losing some of it's detail in the process. You're tossing something, however you look at it. Both cameras record from the maximum resolution image, real life. By the time you normalize the higher density sensor to match the less dense one, aren't they are capable of exactly the same detail?

I know I'm missing something... and my brain needs a good night's sleep.. :)
 

maddagascar

macrumors regular
Oct 26, 2009
234
0
ehh, i knew this was coming out sooner or later. bought my T1i about a month ago and i still love it to this day. i see excellent shots with even XS and XSI's, that makes me love my T1i even more.

but it does look good and having the 1080P at 30FPS must be supper sweet.

some of my T1i photos in my signature!!!!
 

Phrasikleia

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2008
4,082
403
Over there------->
Thanks, Phrasikleia-- a very thorough answer to many questions. One more...;) (actually...several)
When you say take an 18mp file and "normalize it" to 12mp in order to compare with a file from a 12mp sensor, are you saying that each camera, respectively, would produce an 18mp file and a 12mp file (RAW?) When I check my RAW files, the sizes can vary from 10.1mp to 12.4mp as .NEF files using 12-bit conversion and well over 15mp using 14-bit conversion, and I also have the options of several types of RAW file compression, including lossless and uncompressed... all which would give me different file sizes... so, the question is... how do you normalize, let's say, a file from your 18mp sensor camera and one from my 12.4mp sensor camera. I know you don't crop because the sensors are very similar in size, although the Nikon crop sensor is slightly larger than the Canon. So, what's the formula? Is it a ratio of one sensor mp over the other? Because of differences in file size, depending on the particular image, 12/14bit RAW, compressed/uncompressed, wouldn't that present an inconsistent result for normalization. Then there's the matter of sensitivity, like if one camera (fewer megapixel) had a larger dynamic range, thus more shadow detail and highlight detail than the higher megapixel camera -- which would actually produce detail never seen in the higher resolution camera. Nothing will bring that detail out in a sensor if it can't capture it, regardless of how many pixels are there.

I understand in principle what you're saying about the original 18mp sensor image, if "normalized" to the 12.4 mp sensor image output by discarding some data, would still contain more detail, but that's where I get lost. The way my non-digital mind works is this: You have a real-life scene before you (unlimited pixel density there, if you can think of it like that.) The two cameras record the scene on their respective sensors. One with more pixels can resolve more detail from the scene at 100%. Now, to normalize that sensor to an equivalent 12.4 mp file, something has to go... some megapixels. Wouldn't that be as if the 12.4 mp sensor recorded whatever was on the 18 mp sensor, losing some of it's detail in the process. You're tossing something, however you look at it. Both cameras record from the maximum resolution image, real life. By the time you normalize the higher density sensor to match the less dense one, aren't they are capable of exactly the same detail?

I know I'm missing something... and my brain needs a good night's sleep.. :)

Well, there are two ways to normalize. You can either reduce the larger file or enlarge the smaller one. When I was in the market for my 7D, I got sample files from Imaging Resource for the 12MP XSi and for the 18MP 7D and tried both of these options. Either way, the 18MP output came out on top.

I'll post some examples, both snippets from ISO 1600 shots (the max that the XSi can do), so you can see how both detail and noise reduce or enlarge.

In the first example, the 18MP camera was reduced to match the output of the 12MP camera. In the second example, the 12MP camera's output was enlarged to match that of the 18MP camera.

Normalization #1:

Normalized1.jpg


Normalization #2:

Normalized2.jpg


I think you should be able to figure out which one is the 18MP camera. So there is a difference, but each photographer has to decide for himself if it's a difference that matters for his own priorities.
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
Do any other Canon cameras have that feature? I'd be a bit surprised if anything in the xD series would have it, but perhaps they do. There was a time when I thought I wanted it (when I first started using a DSLR), but now I rarely do auto anything. It's surely a good feature to have for an entry-level camera, though. No doubt a lot of people will appreciate it.
None. This Rebel is the first Canon with this feature. Frankly it's the only way to make Auto-ISO usable; given Canon's issues with noise, I'd be surprised if was only the Rebels that got this. (FWIW, the Nikon dSLRs have all had this forever.)
 

anewman143

macrumors regular
Jan 18, 2008
146
23
canon wish list

I know that this topic is the new Canon, but I thought I'd throw this in:

I've got an XSi and am perfectly happy with it - and I have a separate HD Canon camcorder, so good there too.

What I'd REALLY like is for my next Canon camera body to have GPS so that geotagging is automatic...that would be far better for me than yet another megapixel increase...

My $0.02 anyway
 

kyzen

macrumors regular
Feb 8, 2010
134
0
Colorado
What I'd REALLY like is for my next Canon camera body to have GPS so that geotagging is automatic...that would be far better for me than yet another megapixel increase...

This. Hell, I'd even shell out $100 for an on-hotshoe device, so long as the pictures came out of my camera tagged, and I didn't have to fiddle with syncing coordinates to pictures based on time.
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
I've got an XSi and am perfectly happy with it - and I have a separate HD Canon camcorder, so good there too.
What I'd really like is if Canon made a dedicated HD video camera (in a video camera form factor) that would take EF and/or EF-S glass.

The existing crop of HD camcorders have a hyperfocal distance the length of Texas. That's great for auntie Edie who wants to get everyone at the family reunion in focus at the same time, but isn't terribly useful for cinematography.
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
118
Vancouver, BC
What I'd really like is if Canon made a dedicated HD video camera (in a video camera form factor) that would take EF and/or EF-S glass.

The existing crop of HD camcorders have a hyperfocal distance the length of Texas. That's great for auntie Edie who wants to get everyone at the family reunion in focus at the same time, but isn't terribly useful for cinematography.

Yeah, but have you ever tried to do a smooth zoom while shooting with a manual zoom lens? Trust me, you don't want a video camera with EF lenses that you have to manually zoom either. What you really want is a set of nice motorized zoom lenses. ;)

The whole business of doing video on an SLR body is just bizarre to me. They are two different jobs that require two different tools. From the way you hold it, to how long you hold it, to the way you zoom and focus... it's all completely different. It's really dumb to try and do both with one device. I can see the appeal from a cost and creative DOF perspective, but shooting video with an SLR body presents just as many problems as it solves.

Back on topic... The new metering system and LCD are the only real benefits I see here. The 18MP and video is all marketing driven in my opinion. I'm all for more mega-pixels but Canon is doing themselves a disservice by having such a crowded line-up. What product manager wants an 18MP camera at both $1600 and $800 price points. That seems insane to me.
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
Yeah, but have you ever tried to do a smooth zoom while shooting with a manual zoom lens? Trust me, you don't want a video camera with EF lenses that you have to manually zoom either. What you really want is a set of nice motorized zoom lenses. ;)

The whole business of doing video on an SLR body is just bizarre to me. They are two different jobs that require two different tools. From the way you hold it, to how long you hold it, to the way you zoom and focus... it's all completely different. It's really dumb to try and do both with one device. I can see the appeal from a cost and creative DOF perspective, but shooting video with an SLR body presents just as many problems as it solves.
Because indie filmmakers can actually use them to tell a story with cinematographical tools? All it takes is a 5DMk2/7D/550D, good sound tools, a few L primes, and a cleverly built Steadicam clone or some Chrosziel tools. Oh, and a good bit of talent. :cool: (BTW, there is quite the cottage industry cropping up for the vSLR/hdSLR market.)

To do the same thing with Hollywood-specific tools would start at the hundreds of thousands of dollars and require the backing of a soulless executive producer with no vision and an incorrigible urge to clone sequels of whatever movie happens to be hot at the box office this weekend.

No, the vSLR isn't a perfect tool, but it can definitely be made to work.

Back on topic... The new metering system and LCD are the only real benefits I see here. The 18MP and video is all marketing driven in my opinion. I'm all for more mega-pixels but Canon is doing themselves a disservice by having such a crowded line-up. What product manager wants an 18MP camera at both $1600 and $800 price points. That seems insane to me.
Right or wrong, Nikon has been doing the same thing but with 12MP cameras for a while now...

OBTW, the 18MP 60D should be out shortly, guessing it will retail for approx. $1100...
 

firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,506
227
Green and pleasant land
The whole business of doing video on an SLR body is just bizarre to me. They are two different jobs that require two different tools. From the way you hold it, to how long you hold it, to the way you zoom and focus... it's all completely different. It's really dumb to try and do both with one device. I can see the appeal from a cost and creative DOF perspective, but shooting video with an SLR body presents just as many problems as it solves.

It is a strange platform for Video - but I think they've added it 'because they can'. It's hard for the low end user to get the most out of it... no autofocus, poor ergonomics compared to a regular DV cam. For mid to high end users, the quality for the price is amazing though. I'm just getting into my self, and I'm glad Canon are improving the feature on this body.

As for the 18MPix, yes marketing driven I'm sure. But as someone who does a lot of studio type shooting (ISO 100, very high speed flash) I'm planning to buy the camera as a backup - because I can actually get some benefit from and make use of this extra resolution under these controlled conditions.
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
OBTW, the 18MP 60D should be out shortly, guessing it will retail for approx. $1100...
Wouldn't there be a lot of cannibalization between the 60D and the 7D if Canon decides to keep the specs of the 50D and use the 7D's sensor? The built quality would be similar (I haven't touched a 7D to be honest, but the xxD series has always felt very solid, I cannot imagine that the 7D is worlds better), the sensor identical and 6.3 fps is pretty fast (even if a 60D would be a tad slower, it should still be plenty for most).
 

NeuralControl

macrumors 6502a
Dec 3, 2009
921
38
I apologize if this has been already stated in the thread, but I could not find it. What's the price point of these in the US?
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
Wouldn't there be a lot of cannibalization between the 60D and the 7D if Canon decides to keep the specs of the 50D and use the 7D's sensor? The built quality would be similar (I haven't touched a 7D to be honest, but the xxD series has always felt very solid, I cannot imagine that the 7D is worlds better), the sensor identical and 6.3 fps is pretty fast (even if a 60D would be a tad slower, it should still be plenty for most).
Some, I'm sure. My guess is that the 60D won't have stuff like the 100% pentaprism, LCD enhanced viewfinder, weathersealing, 8fps.
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
Some, I'm sure. My guess is that the 60D won't have stuff like the 100% pentaprism, LCD enhanced viewfinder, weathersealing, 8fps.
Sure, but if Canon doesn't totally deviate from the specs of the 50D (95 % viewfinder, 6.3 fps), the 60D is still nipping at the heels of the 7D.

But what the hell, this is good news for Canon folks: they get almost all of the features of the 7D for much less, no reason to complain :)
 

Phrasikleia

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2008
4,082
403
Over there------->
Some, I'm sure. My guess is that the 60D won't have stuff like the 100% pentaprism, LCD enhanced viewfinder, weathersealing, 8fps.

Yeah, they'll surely leave out the 100% viewfinder, the LCD overlay, much of the weather sealing, the dual processors that the 7D has, and it probably will have no flash controller. You can also be pretty much assured that it won't have the whizbang AF system and 19 cross-type AF points found on the 7D either.

What I guess it would gain over the 550D would be the top LCD, slightly faster burst rate, more AF points, better build quality, digital level, second wheel, and more dedicated buttons.

That will put quite some distance between the 550D and the 60D and will still leave a lot to gain between 60D and the 7D. I can already hear the cries of agony over just how far to upgrade along this series of APS-C cameras.
 

John.B

macrumors 601
Jan 15, 2008
4,195
706
Holocene Epoch
Yeah, they'll surely leave out the 100% viewfinder, the LCD overlay, much of the weather sealing, the dual processors that the 7D has, and it probably will have no flash controller. You can also be pretty much assured that it won't have the whizbang AF system and 19 cross-type AF points found on the 7D either.

What I guess it would gain over the 550D would be the top LCD, slightly faster burst rate, more AF points, better build quality, digital level, second wheel, and more dedicated buttons.

That will put quite some distance between the 550D and the 60D and will still leave a lot to gain between 60D and the 7D. I can already hear the cries of agony over just how far to upgrade along this series of APS-C cameras.
I'd suspect the digital level would only go with the LCD overlay but I'd be happy to be wrong... If it has the accelerometer for the level, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't also be able to do focus points adjustment switching between portrait and landscape orientations. My guess is that's all 7D AF goodness that the 60D won't get.
 

Phrasikleia

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2008
4,082
403
Over there------->
I'd suspect the digital level would only go with the LCD overlay but I'd be happy to be wrong... If it has the accelerometer for the level, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't also be able to do focus points adjustment switching between portrait and landscape orientations. My guess is that's all 7D AF goodness that the 60D won't get.

Well, it would be easy for them to include the digital level as an LCD-only feature. I don't even use the one in the viewfinder on my 7D; I only use the one on the LCD. Yeah, maybe the 60D would gain that split focus point feature. I love that and really miss it on my 5D2.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the ability to do AF microadjustment, which the 50D already has. So that would be another bonus at the 60D level (versus the 550D, which doesn't have it).
 

DoNoHarm

macrumors 65816
Oct 8, 2008
1,138
46
Maine
wow this is an awesome thread.

I have a question on the noise area. Several people have talked about the high noise of cannon cameras. Is this due to the cmos sensor design?

My primary purpose in getting an SLR will be astrophotography. Some of those shots can go out to 30 minutes of open shutter! Is there any particular camera body from any manufacturer that you would recommend?
 

psyentific

macrumors newbie
Jun 20, 2007
4
0
7D is the 60D?

Based on the T2i and the 7D specs, I think (with no external input), that we've seen the last of the X0D line.

Canon's now got a normal lineup of 5 cameras that competes with Nikon in every category:

-1 or -2 gen DX (T1i or 450 XSi) budget consumer

current-gen DX consumer (T2i)

current-gen DX prosumer (7D)

current-gen FX pro/prosumer (5D Mk II)

current-gen FX pro (ID MkIV or MkIIIs if you need its features)

I think that's going to be it. I don't see where a 60D would fit in usefully.
 

wheelhot

macrumors 68020
Nov 23, 2007
2,084
269
I think that's going to be it. I don't see where a 60D would fit in usefully.
I don't even know how the 60D specs are going to be since the 550D has such a similar specs to the 7D :rolleyes:

Maybe the 60D is just going to be a bigger 550D :p
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.