I have decided to upgrade from my 5.1 Mac Pro, which I use mainly for 3d rendering, retouching and occasional video work. Currently I am still running High Sierra so I can use a 1080ti for GPU rendering. I also do a fair bit of CPU rendering. My budget is £10,000 to £12,000. I am looking at a 16 core 7.1 with the 6800x duo and I'm close to pulling the trigger on it, but I can't stop thinking maybe I'm mad and should switch to the dark side, as for the same money I can get a 64 core threadripper with 2 x 3090s. Ideally I'd wait until the Apple Silicon Mac Pro arrives, but for business reasons I have to spend the money now. I have been a Mac guy for 30 years, but have dabbled in Windoze, and I don't like it, but I can live with it. The plus sides of the mac option are that I'm sure I'll be a bit more productive because of the whole ecosystem, the Mac will depreciate less than the PC, the Mac will last longer, and I can still boot into Windoze if I need to. The plus side of the PC is just the sheer raw power! The Mac of course is a beautifully engineered and designed workstation, whereas the PC is really just a bunch of gaming parts stuck in a plastic case. I'm worried though that the 7.1 will just feel a bit of a Meh! upgrade from the 5.1. I'm finding the decision very difficult - maybe I'm just looking for reassurance that getting the Mac is going to be the right call... help me!
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MP 7,1 Can't decide between 7.1 and PC purchase!
- Thread starter mitchino
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Wish I could be of more help, and I really have no experience with the kind of equipment you’re working with, so take this with a whole bottle of salt but: the list of upsides you gave sounds very compelling to me!
This sounds like you would be really happy with another Mac! Again, I don’t know much, and I hope others can give more topical advice — good luck!
This sounds like you would be really happy with another Mac! Again, I don’t know much, and I hope others can give more topical advice — good luck!
The depreciation really depends on how long you intend to keep the system, assuming you’ve had the 5,1 for about 10 years, and keep the 7,1 the same, it’s not going to be worth all that much at the other end. Sure the Ryzen system will probably be worth less.
As for the Mac lasting longer, with Apple in the midst of a platform change that may not be true.
I bought my Mac Pro because I edit in Final Cut, if I was in DaVinci I would likely have saved myself the cash and built a Ryzen system. If your software is cross platform, it’s definitely worth considering.
As it's for business.
Will the faster PC let you get more work done each year? Earning a higher profit.
Conversely, will a faster PC let you get your work done sooner? Giving your more free time.
If so, you can always use a Mac at home.
Will the faster PC let you get more work done each year? Earning a higher profit.
Conversely, will a faster PC let you get your work done sooner? Giving your more free time.
If so, you can always use a Mac at home.
I’m not so concerned about the difference in GPU rendering now that the 6800 duos are here. It’s the CPU performance that gives me pause for thought. I do sometimes work in CPU only renderers, and it’s there that the 64 core Threadripper will wipe the floor with the 16 core Xeon. Mind you I’m not bothered about final render times, I like a break! It’s more speedy interactivity in the preview window I want.
If you render on CPU like me than the math is simple, a 64 core TR will render almost twice as fast as a 28core Xeon, it also cost twice that much (you can find the 28core M version new on eBay for 2200$). You can buy the base model plus the GPU and add CPU and RAM by yourself, for the SSD you can start with 1Tb, then you can always add more storage if needed using PCIe slots.
I use both Mac and PC, for workstation usage I prefer to work on the 7.1, it is worth using it even just for the silence (it is something that you really appreciate as soon as you start a PC).
Depending on the workflow and the software you use it may still be better to use a PC.
The smart move would have been to buy the 7.1 when it was released, in a year from now Apple will release the 8.1 AS version, but if you need to spend the money now it’s still a nice machine and there’s no way you can get the same quality in a PC No matter how much it costs.
There are also people speculating that a new Intel MacPro with latest Xeons is about to be released, for me it’s extremely unlikely that will happen but you never know..
About the interactivity speed, all this video have been recorded while rendering on an 8core: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCON9LaQTyC5Ie0JEWiunxhw
I use both Mac and PC, for workstation usage I prefer to work on the 7.1, it is worth using it even just for the silence (it is something that you really appreciate as soon as you start a PC).
Depending on the workflow and the software you use it may still be better to use a PC.
The smart move would have been to buy the 7.1 when it was released, in a year from now Apple will release the 8.1 AS version, but if you need to spend the money now it’s still a nice machine and there’s no way you can get the same quality in a PC No matter how much it costs.
There are also people speculating that a new Intel MacPro with latest Xeons is about to be released, for me it’s extremely unlikely that will happen but you never know..
About the interactivity speed, all this video have been recorded while rendering on an 8core: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCON9LaQTyC5Ie0JEWiunxhw
I think it would help if you also told us what applications/software you use. If you use final cut, then definitely get a Mac Pro. Apple has optimized the hell out of that thing. Also, you can always put 3090’s in your Mac Pro and run windows Bootcamp if the MPX 6800/6900 disappoint. I was able to run 2x 3090’s in my 2019 Mac Pro!
Historically, one of the reasons put forward for doing graphics on a CPU was that the CPU had more access to a larger memory pool to hole more complicated models. For example the 1080Ti has 11GB of VRAM and if the geometric model and associated textures were 14GB then couldn't load the "whole thing" into the GPU card , but CPU works (although substantively slower compute, wins on avoiding memory swapping overhead )
at 32GB the 6800 has a much higher cutoff limit. If the rendering software took advantage of the Infinity Fabric links that would be 64GB cutoff limit for a Duo. If you go back 3-4 years that is more RAM that most CPUs had access to. It is not like Apple is selling that 64GB of VRAM (and Infinity Fabric Link) to you on the cheap. If you are not using it , then you are not getting much value out of that part of the system cost.
The latest GPUs are getting specific hardware just to tackle ray tracing problems. The notion that CPUs are going to keep up with that over an extended period of time is an even more higher and slipperier slope.
CPU render is still more portable ( fewer hadware vendor lock-ins like CUDA or Metal ) and can get to higher RAM capacities more affordably. Those though are falling back to being "familar' tools as the justirification; not performance ( if willing to add some new tools to the workload mix. )
if don't have to preview with the same render engine as the final then there more options to balance placement of workload across GPU and CPU.
That said unless it was super urgent (end of Sept deadline ) I'd wait until end of October and see what Apple's next move is for the rest of 2021. Decent chance Apple is going to change the price/value mix on the Mac Pro. Still not going to get anywhere newer 32 cores at your price point, but 16 could be priced better.
80% of the time I’m using c4d and Octane, 10% Photoshop, and occasional FCPX.
I might be able to wait until end of October, this purchase is hopefully part grant funded, and the process can take a while.
Great to know I can put 2 x 3090s in there if I fancy a trip to the dark side.
One of the things I find most difficult with looking into PCs is the sheer number of options for cooling, power, storage etc etc. It’s a minefield!
I might be able to wait until end of October, this purchase is hopefully part grant funded, and the process can take a while.
Great to know I can put 2 x 3090s in there if I fancy a trip to the dark side.
One of the things I find most difficult with looking into PCs is the sheer number of options for cooling, power, storage etc etc. It’s a minefield!
...
Half the cores for twice the price is the problem the Mac Pro 2019 has. Apple only rarely cuts the price of a system once they have released it. ( The Mac Pro 2013 got a price reduction in 2017 . A reduction but it took 4 years to happen. If Apple kept the Mac Pro 2019 around until 2023 maybe they'd reduce the price.. but before then probably not. ). Apple's "rules" allow them to reprise products when release a new one. Lastest W-3300 would allow Apple to move the 12 , 16 , and 24 core systems to lower price points ( and toss the 8 core model).
The other huge assumption you're making is that the Apple Silicon (AS) Mac Pro ( "8,1" ) will actually be a direct replacement for the 2019 ( 7,1) model. All the evidence so far is that it will not be. Apple has zero support for 3rd GPU cards in macOS on AS. None. That puts multiple high end x16 slots with 300+ W aux power sockets in doubt. No drivers then no need for GPU cards. If continues their "war' against classic discrete GPUs onto the Mac Pro then probably going to loose slots. Also probably going to loose DIMMs also. High end GPUs don't use DIMMs . Apple's high end iGPU probably won't for the same power savings and performance reasons.
AS also is quite unlikely to get to parity with the 64 (and up) core options for Windows. macOS doesn't support more than 64 threads and Apple is quite unlikely to go that way just for one , extremely low volume product. ( on the W-3300 there is pretty good chance they would skip the 38 core option or else lock-it to turn off hypertheads ) .
So the folks who have super insatiable desires for high core counts , the Mac probably isn't going that way. AS is going to a higher amount of more specialized processors ( AMX , Neural cores, GPU cores , image processors , etc.). Those are primairly all called by specialized Apple libraries. Building SoC to brute force a generic "add/sub/mult/div" application code onto triple digits numbers of cores at very high TDPs is not what they are focused on at all. The CPU core count will go up, but not on some unbounded , "first priority" , fast track and probably plateau after the AS transition stabilizes.
Nor is AS out to directly replace 375-425W massive GPU cards with something equally as large and modular.
In short, the assumption that Apple is going to make a "Threadripper killer" SoC is a very big leap lacking in evidence. They probably are not. So if they are not making something to kill of the Threadripper/W-3xxx series then why not do an update?
Apple will probably have something with some substantive overlap ( e.g., max out at 40-50 general application cores ), but over the long term chase AMD/Intel/Ampere into the triple digits .... probably not. High end I/O wise with multiple PCI-e v4 (v5) x16 slots ... again probably not.
On Apple systems with AS the GPU has access to the exact same amount of memory as the CPU has .... what is really the "advantage" the CPU only render is going to bring to the table? It is not a bigger workingspace room. It is not more math function units. It isn't ray tracing specific math function units. It isn't more power efficient.
The A15 is illustrative of all of these Apple focused objectives. CPU core counts same. Most of additional transistor budget allocated to additional GPU core, image processing improvements ( can en/decode ProRes now) , Neural cores , system level cache , etc. the Mac Pro AS will get a bigger overall transitor budget but the weightings are likely to be similar in priority budget assignments.
CPU renderers will be more portable but AS isn't about maximum portiablity. It is about better Macs and iPads first and portability after that.
I was SO close to buying a top-end PC before getting the MP, but I’ve had nothing but underwhelming experiences with Windows, from it’s designed-by-committe-who-don’t-talk-to-one-another interface to the faff of keeping stuff up-to-date, security issues etc. Despite the somewhat ridiculous power-to-price comparison (lets be honest, the PC wins hands down) I just had to stay with macOS. Finally, after nearly two years, the MP is coming good with the W6800X Duo. But for sure, if I needed to deliver pixels to a deadline (CG is really now just a hobby) I wouldn’t hesitate to go for the sheer power of a fully loaded CUDA-powered PC. I’m just fortunate/stupid enough to be able to afford Apple’s pro gear.
As far as CPU core count. My advice would be get the 8 core CPU machine and replace it with 24 or 28 core from eBay, way cheaper. And, if you don't require over 1TB of RAM, get the non-M version and save even more. I replaced the 8 core in mine with a 16 core. Net out-of-pocket was $423 - I sold my 8 core on eBay.
BTW, my GPU is a Gigabyte RX6800XT.
Lou
BTW, my GPU is a Gigabyte RX6800XT.
Lou
In a similar boat…..
we went PC, simply because of better supported apps, clear roadmap [GPU upgrades….], and price vs performance.
This is for Real-time rendering so more GPU based than CPU. Just popped a 3080ti into the box the other day and works very well.
However I 100% understand your hesitance and agree it is a minefield. Yes my PC box is loud and is an ad hoc collection of components. Plus it looks like turd and I have no love for it whatsoever.
But, and here is the big but, it has performed amazingly well, never crashes, super stable and has increased productivity. As a studio, we have been very successful since the change, and the ability to elevate our output due to the hardware has been certainly tangible.
If was I just using your software, right now, I would buy a Mac Pro [if $ not an issue], but at the same time, we can get 2 PC’s that will out perform a mac pro [for our non CPU based work] at the same price.
I think the 7,1 is obviously a bad buy for someone who does any heavy CPU rendering. Not only do you have to go through the hassle of buying a 28C part and selling off whatever you got stock just to make it remotely price-competitive, you're stuck on a dead socket at a massive core disadvantage and no new CPUs coming down the pipe.
I really don't understand the arguments about wanting a slotbox tower to be beautiful. It's just a work expense that sits under my desk.
I really don't understand the arguments about wanting a slotbox tower to be beautiful. It's just a work expense that sits under my desk.
How loud is the 3090? Which 3090 card do you have?
My MP6,1 is getting old too. So I have been thinking about my next computer. Ideally, it should support the following 3 requirements.
1. Fast web browsing experience: I do a lot of research online.
2. Fast photo processing: I use a number of photo processing software.
3. (This is not required, but very nice to have) Nvidia GPU for Neural Network model training. Currently, I do my NN model software on AWS/GCP. It would be good if my next computer can do it too. (This is something Nvidia GPU does very well.)
That's really encouraging - vray 5.1 looks like it works really well with the 7.1 - do you know if it is multiprocessor aware and using all cores for the interactive preview?
It’s funny that you (like many other here) talk like you know exactly what will come in the future, I follow this forum since years and as matter of fact you like many other (including me) have been wrong about a large number of predictions. I do not have that presumption and I tend to consider all the possibilities without prejudice based on stuff that may or may not affect future development. In the mean while I prefer to wait and see
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Do you think Chaos soup might release a Mac Metal version that uses GPU one day? Also have you used Corona with c4d much? What are your thoughts on that?
I use Corona as well, really nice software but overall I prefer Vray. Performance and quality are similar but Vray will have a larger/better future set in the near future (many things are already better).
A metal version for the GPU is not in the work right now (they do not exclude that for the future though). They are working to use GPU for other very useful things but I’m not allowed to talk about that.
Even if available I would still prefer Vray CPU over Vray GPU, the GPU version is as fast as any other GPU renderer and there are scenarios where GPU will outperform CPU significantly, but with CPU speed overall is very close (comparing top CPU and GPU), is more stable and it supports all the features (coding/debugging for GPU is more difficult compared to CPU). Depending on your workflow a GPU can be faster (something you shouldn't take for granted) but in that case I suggest to look elsewhere on MacOS, like Octane or Redshift.
I was in the same boat and after a few years of hemming and hawing, I finally jumped in a got a 32core Threadripper dual 3090 build from Puget upgrading from a 10core iMac Pro. I'm mostly Ae+CPU based rendering currently but wanted to make sure I had a machine able to handle anything I threw at it. I REALLY wanted to stay on the Mac platform, but the current Mac Pro seemed like a dead end. I think these AMD cards are the last GPU upgrades we'll see for it, and the future AS Mac Pro seemed too far off for me to wait. I think there will be some growing pains before it fills the niche the current Mac Pro fills.
Pros
• CPU Rendering is obviously faster.
• Ae is much faster. The higher clock speeds translates to faster previews at a higher res. This is without running the MFR on the beta. Once that is out of beta it will make a big difference with 32 cores.
• GPU rendering is light years faster. I have not tried it yet, but Redshift RT will be PC only for what I'm assuming a good while before they make the port to Metal, so you will have earlier access to almost realtime rendering.
• I'm really interested in where Blender is going. It was clear to me Metal support for eeVee and Cycles was not a priority for them.
• I started getting into PC gaming.
Cons
• This thing is LOUD AF. Like way louder than I really thought it would be when just working idle in Ae and C4D. The initial fan curves for Puget had the machine revving up and down even at idle with no apps open. We've since adjusted the fan curve to be more aggressive and it runs louder more consistently now. A Mac Pro would definitely be way more quiet than this beast, and look better.
• Windows is horrible. File Explorer hurts my eyes to use. I can't believe anyone thinks this is proper UI design. There are File Explorer alternatives that are much better, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger and hack the registry to make them default. I'm waiting out to see if Win 11 brings any improvements and gauge the over all system stability before I get hacky.
• It seems a lot less stable than my Mac. I've had system hangs and reboots for no good reason. Most of my system/Ae/C4D hangs were me just pushing things too hard/wrong and I knew why it did what it did. This is just random Ae is gonna hang while not doing anything too intensive.
For now I have a M1 MacBook Pro next door to my PC and a monitor and Logitech keyboard and mouse I can quickly switch inputs on. (I'm typing this on the MacBook right now). I do email and casual browsing on the MacBook, and I'm getting work done on the PC. Parsec works surprising well and would be a great option to just run Ae and C4D on the PC, but 30 years of muscle memory of hitting CMD was too hard to break, so I wound up swapping the keyboard commands using Power Toys on Windows, and Parsec does not translate keys the Mac for some reason. Really hope they can figure that out.
I was slightly worried about chip production/supply chains in the next year or two and needed to get a machine to get the job done now. If the next Mac Pro proves to be something that can do the work I need it to do, I will switch back in a heart beat. Then I'll have a cheaply upgradable render box I can hopefully move into the closet with some ventilation and sound proofing.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
Pros
• CPU Rendering is obviously faster.
• Ae is much faster. The higher clock speeds translates to faster previews at a higher res. This is without running the MFR on the beta. Once that is out of beta it will make a big difference with 32 cores.
• GPU rendering is light years faster. I have not tried it yet, but Redshift RT will be PC only for what I'm assuming a good while before they make the port to Metal, so you will have earlier access to almost realtime rendering.
• I'm really interested in where Blender is going. It was clear to me Metal support for eeVee and Cycles was not a priority for them.
• I started getting into PC gaming.
Cons
• This thing is LOUD AF. Like way louder than I really thought it would be when just working idle in Ae and C4D. The initial fan curves for Puget had the machine revving up and down even at idle with no apps open. We've since adjusted the fan curve to be more aggressive and it runs louder more consistently now. A Mac Pro would definitely be way more quiet than this beast, and look better.
• Windows is horrible. File Explorer hurts my eyes to use. I can't believe anyone thinks this is proper UI design. There are File Explorer alternatives that are much better, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger and hack the registry to make them default. I'm waiting out to see if Win 11 brings any improvements and gauge the over all system stability before I get hacky.
• It seems a lot less stable than my Mac. I've had system hangs and reboots for no good reason. Most of my system/Ae/C4D hangs were me just pushing things too hard/wrong and I knew why it did what it did. This is just random Ae is gonna hang while not doing anything too intensive.
For now I have a M1 MacBook Pro next door to my PC and a monitor and Logitech keyboard and mouse I can quickly switch inputs on. (I'm typing this on the MacBook right now). I do email and casual browsing on the MacBook, and I'm getting work done on the PC. Parsec works surprising well and would be a great option to just run Ae and C4D on the PC, but 30 years of muscle memory of hitting CMD was too hard to break, so I wound up swapping the keyboard commands using Power Toys on Windows, and Parsec does not translate keys the Mac for some reason. Really hope they can figure that out.
I was slightly worried about chip production/supply chains in the next year or two and needed to get a machine to get the job done now. If the next Mac Pro proves to be something that can do the work I need it to do, I will switch back in a heart beat. Then I'll have a cheaply upgradable render box I can hopefully move into the closet with some ventilation and sound proofing.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
I love Corona and use it as my go-to render. ( I couldn't get V-ray going on my Mac, so I can't compare.) It is almost 3x faster on the Threadripper than my 10core iMac Pro. My iMac Pro was almost 2x the speed of my 12 core 5,1. If you are using Corona, it will be noticeably faster in both IPR and rendering. Not quite GPU IPR responsiveness, but close enough for the archviz texturing and lightning work I do.
You should give Vray another chance, if for whatever reason is not working then contact support. Once installed look for all the VFB2 features like cryptomatte, layer compositing etc, and don’t forget to try Cosmos and Vantage. Of course on Windows you can also work using GPU or even hybrid rendering.
