He is absolutely correct. Any border or international airport “functional equivalent” has exemptions to the warrant requirement. What I was taught was all the agent needs is articulable reasonable suspicion which is more than a hunch but less than probable cause of a crime to search a person or things. The courts have upheld this for a long time. They can do a lot of things in these areas than in the interior of the US.
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Other "Clean" phone at international border crossing.
- Thread starter Cobalt50
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He is absolutely correct. Any border or international airport “functional equivalent” has exemptions to the warrant requirement. What I was taught was all the agent needs is articulable reasonable suspicion which is more than a hunch but less than probable cause of a crime to search a person or things. The courts have upheld this for a long time. They can do a lot of things in these areas than in the interior of the US.
Perfect example…Border Patrol stopping people at check points on New England highways.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/23/us/maine-new-hampshire-border-patrol-checkpoints/index.html
Saw that on the news this morning.
It happens all the time within 100 miles of the border and they have that right.
"With all due respect, you would probably never see it. Done in rooms off the main lines most likely"
But to do that you have to pull them out of the line. I have never seen customs or immigration escorting someone off to the side, or grabbing someone anywhere in an airport. Sure it happens, maybe it's just the airports I use.
But to do that you have to pull them out of the line. I have never seen customs or immigration escorting someone off to the side, or grabbing someone anywhere in an airport. Sure it happens, maybe it's just the airports I use.
I have nothing to hide...... So I never close the curtains of my living room or my sleeping room. In the night it is dark enough anyway. I also don't switch off any webcam and they are freely accessible. I am now thinking of giving everyone access to my bankaccount details. Are there any more suggestions you have for me, a person that has nothing to hide?
I think it is plain stupid to think that a person who has nothing to hide can't get into trouble by these ridicule laws that gives border patrols and other officials, the right to search your electronic devices. When I travelled to the USA just after the 9/11 attack I was questioned on an EU Airport before boarding the plane. They looked at my pasport and asked why i had been on several trips to Bosnia and Hercegovina. I told them why and they could have even googled me to check if it was true. They did not.
They started to ask stupid questions and in between they slipped in questions that did not look important like how many suitcases I had checked in. ( 2 suitcases)
Then they came back asking again crazy questions and slippen in the question: 'Of the three suitcases you checked in, how many did you pack yourself?'
If I would have said 'all' or 'I packed them myself', I would have been in trouble. I just felt that I needed to say that I did not check in three but two suitcases. I saw on the face of the man that questioned me, a little smile when I did that. But what if I would have been tired or not noticing these kind of deliberate twisting of my words, and I would not have corrected him?
My advice is to set up a very normal facebook account, set up a twitter account with very affectionate tweets towards the country that you visit. Send all your contacts happy messages from a new iCloud account. Tell them that the coutry you visit is the best. And do this after carefully deleting everything on the phone. Check every contact that you have and when your bakery around the corner happens to sell halal backed bread. Delete that contact.
I think it is plain stupid to think that a person who has nothing to hide can't get into trouble by these ridicule laws that gives border patrols and other officials, the right to search your electronic devices. When I travelled to the USA just after the 9/11 attack I was questioned on an EU Airport before boarding the plane. They looked at my pasport and asked why i had been on several trips to Bosnia and Hercegovina. I told them why and they could have even googled me to check if it was true. They did not.
They started to ask stupid questions and in between they slipped in questions that did not look important like how many suitcases I had checked in. ( 2 suitcases)
Then they came back asking again crazy questions and slippen in the question: 'Of the three suitcases you checked in, how many did you pack yourself?'
If I would have said 'all' or 'I packed them myself', I would have been in trouble. I just felt that I needed to say that I did not check in three but two suitcases. I saw on the face of the man that questioned me, a little smile when I did that. But what if I would have been tired or not noticing these kind of deliberate twisting of my words, and I would not have corrected him?
My advice is to set up a very normal facebook account, set up a twitter account with very affectionate tweets towards the country that you visit. Send all your contacts happy messages from a new iCloud account. Tell them that the coutry you visit is the best. And do this after carefully deleting everything on the phone. Check every contact that you have and when your bakery around the corner happens to sell halal backed bread. Delete that contact.
I see people mention this more and more on the web - protecting your device from law enforcement. An honest question: is this (traveling abroad with a phone) really an issue? It didn’t occur to me once that someone would look into my phone, and I traveled quite a few times accross Europe and to US too - I never saw anyone check anybody’s phone. Besides, don’t they need a warrant or something? Can’t you just refuse to unlock it?
Genuine questions, not trying to be smart here.
Experienced similar in AZ and the permanent border stops that are well inland from US-MX border.
Lots of Youtube vids people made of themselves asserting their Constitutional rights at these, and Border's reactions range from comical to sad and scary.
Unlocked used iphone se's are around $100 to $130. Buy one. Use a password to login. Don't add your fingerprints. If they stop you at the border to check it just refuse. If they say then will have to keep it then you smile and let them.
I hear this argument a lot. It's a diversion.
The argument isn't about whether you have something to hide or not because that is irrelevant. The argument is about whether you are willing to surrender your rights as a citizen or not.
Those who claim "You have nothing to hide" have already decided to surrender their rights and are more than willing to give you up or surrender your rights if it makes it easier on them. It makes them angry that others refuse to surrender their rights and go along.
Which I always find interesting, because a lot of the time these are the same people that are so quick to defend God, country and the military.
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Yes. A lot of this happening down in Tucson right now. Tucson is well within the 100 mile zone.
There are a lot of reasons why people don’t want agents inspecting their phones. A lot of people have sensitive information related to work, nudes, and other personal stuff you don’t want people seeing.
It’s a basic right to allow people to have privacy.
Guided Access - NVM, that would just get it confiscated. Looks like you either have to turn on restrictions, or backup the phone and reset it if you want it to be totally clean. I would NEVER give them access to my phone and everything in my iCloud account, so they could (*^@# it up.
Personally, it chills me to think that they can search my phone with my permission, or confiscate it for weeks on end if I refuse, or take my laptop and try to clone it before returning it. I'm encrypting my MacBook with file vault 2 as I type, but if I wasn't doing it now I would be for sure after reading those stories.
Personally, it chills me to think that they can search my phone with my permission, or confiscate it for weeks on end if I refuse, or take my laptop and try to clone it before returning it. I'm encrypting my MacBook with file vault 2 as I type, but if I wasn't doing it now I would be for sure after reading those stories.
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That's some interesting logic that can circularly justify a lot of things, right or wrong.
So, either surrender your rights as a citizen or stay hostage inside the US? What kind of freedom is that? Or is surrendering your constituitional rights the price of freedom since "freedom isn't free"?
What's next? Don't cross state lines? What about county lines? Stay within city limits? Don't leave your home?
Where does "Papers please?" stop for you?
So I’m just supposed to stay in the US and never leave? Please explain the logic or justice in that?
So basically what you’re say is, don’t leave America and if you choose to travel risk your privacy and right.
This is a very interesting topic. I wrongfully assumed a warrant would be required. The next time I cross a border I'll be sure to remove my fingerprints and set an extremely secure alphanumeric password.
I'm particularly fond of people saying "never happened to me". Personally, I've driven millions of kilometres and never had an accident, should I conclude that accidents don't happen and therefore not take any precautions?
The data is there and has already been posted in the thread; this can and does happen, even if you haven't seen it. Maybe the chance is small, but there is a chance. And I don't want a copy of all my data floating around for anyone to access in the future because of some lax security protocols.
I'm particularly fond of people saying "never happened to me". Personally, I've driven millions of kilometres and never had an accident, should I conclude that accidents don't happen and therefore not take any precautions?
The data is there and has already been posted in the thread; this can and does happen, even if you haven't seen it. Maybe the chance is small, but there is a chance. And I don't want a copy of all my data floating around for anyone to access in the future because of some lax security protocols.
If there is something on your phone and they pick you they will get it.
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I have crossed some land boards in the SWA and they made me turn on my laptop and open unlock my phone.
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only in America
Why would you ask? What does that have to do with the discussion?
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I have never seen it happen but I have read stories online about it happening
Destroying or hiding evidence is a crime
They do although my understanding from talking to people I work with on the JTTF is that the policy is a holdover of the limited 4A at border ports of entry from when Customs and Border Protection was the United States Customs Service under the Department of the Treasury and has to do with people hiding things at ports of entry to avoid paying tax and duty on certain items
I don't keep anything on my personal phone anyway and if they wanted to search my agency issued phone they will need someone with a higher clearance than they have
My understanding from talking to people I work with on the JTTF is that the policy is a holdover of the limited 4A at border ports of entry from when Customs and Border Protection was the United States Customs Service under the Department of the Treasury and has to do with people hiding things at ports of entry to avoid paying tax and duty on certain items
Fairly interesting evolution of my original post. Informative. I note that for some people I am suspicious solely for the fact that I would not like government agents to examine and possibly store the information on my smart phone. I would have assumed that everyone would have been protective of individual privacy on principle. The authors of the US Constitution felt privacy was an inherent right. That's the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution in the Bill of Rights. One of the bases for the American Revolution was infringement on privacy (warrantless search and seizure).
It appears that some people are not concerned about privacy on principle.
Border agents do a very good job and are very common sense in my experience. But I do know they make honest mistakes occasionally. If they made one with me I would rather they not do it with my smartphone data. That's all. Sometimes LEOs come up with screwy conclusions. True example: "She has tattoos. The tattoos themselves are definitive proof she is a prostitute." Smarter heads prevailed in that case.
Lots of angles to examine this issue. Practically speaking, if I make my trip, I will probably buy a cheap device at my destination and chuck it before I return. Or I'll travel with a cheap device with the bare minimum of information on it.
It appears that some people are not concerned about privacy on principle.
Border agents do a very good job and are very common sense in my experience. But I do know they make honest mistakes occasionally. If they made one with me I would rather they not do it with my smartphone data. That's all. Sometimes LEOs come up with screwy conclusions. True example: "She has tattoos. The tattoos themselves are definitive proof she is a prostitute." Smarter heads prevailed in that case.
Lots of angles to examine this issue. Practically speaking, if I make my trip, I will probably buy a cheap device at my destination and chuck it before I return. Or I'll travel with a cheap device with the bare minimum of information on it.
Maybe. But with all that is happening in the world today there are a lot of things that could have a much more significant impact on your life than having your phone examined. And anyway, what can you do about it? It's not like the policy is going to change without a lot of work. You can spend time worrying about your phone, but one goal of vacation travel is to get away from things, relax, forget your worries for a short while. All that time spent in this thread worrying about what the government might do could have been spent instead in planning for your trip. Why focus on the negative (which you can't control) when there are so many positive things that can be uplifting?