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sunny5

macrumors 68000
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Jun 11, 2021
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Btw, does Apple Silicon supports AV1 hardware encoding? They claimed that encoding speed is 50 times faster than before on Premier Pro and Davinci Resolve. Curious to know actual performances compared to media engine and ProRes encoder/decoder.

At least there will be another GPU manufacturer other than AMD and Nvidia.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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The A370M should be slightly faster than M1. Probably around 30-40% slower than M1 Pro.

My guess is that Intel is trying to take advantage of the current GPU market. These GPUs don’t make much sense IMO. Unless I am misunderstanding something.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Interesting to find out how this will compare to Apple Silicon and of course AMD / nVidia’s offering

This A300 series is not really a high performance offering. It is incrementally better than Intel's iGPU; not revolutionarily better.

Technically an Intel Gen 12 CPU package + A300 series will be competitive with an AMD Ryzen 6000 ( probably more CPU cores on the Intel side and some graphics edge cases on the GPU side but Intel winning on multimedia processing. )

At the low end of the mobile GPU spectrum Nvidia isn't really trying all that hard. It won't be hard for Intel to beat the GTX 550M .

Versus Apple GPUs the A300 series isn't going to put up any big 'wins' either except for AV1. In terms of "creative assistant" processor for H.264/265/AV1 en/decode it probably will be competitive. (apple has prioritized their own proprietary ProRes over doing work on AV1. For a window of time Intel is going to exploit that. )
 

T'hain Esh Kelch

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2001
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My guess is that Intel is trying to take advantage of the current GPU market. These GPUs don’t make much sense IMO. Unless I am misunderstanding something.
It is another market for them to enter, and they can also use the R&D for their iGPUs, so double bonus.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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It is another market for them to enter, and they can also use the R&D for their iGPUs, so double bonus.

Yes, of course. What I mean is that gamers are unlikely to choose this over Nvidia or AMD if they have the option. But it’s an additional stream of revenue for Intel in a starving market.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Btw, does Apple Silicon supports AV1 hardware encoding? They claimed that encoding speed is 50 times faster than before on Premier Pro and Davinci Resolve. Curious to know actual performances compared to media engine and ProRes encoder/decoder.

AV1 and ProRes are doing two substantively different things. Nobody delivers final video product in ProRes. That isn't the purpose of pushing video into that format. ProRes is more of an editing format than a delivery one.

If people are caputring in H.265/264 in their camera and editing on that then don't really need ProRes. Similar with game streaming to a file or internet ... if captured in AV1 (from GPU frame buffers ) then don't need ProRes either. ( there are gobs of folks loading data to twitch and game streaming sites that never hit ProRes as a codec. )


No one else has a ProRes hardware en/decoder than Apple.. some comparisions are all going to be Apples-to-Oranges. Over time other GPU vendors will cover AV1. It is going to be more cross-platform compare over the long term.


At least there will be another GPU manufacturer other than AMD and Nvidia.

If toss out workstation and server GPU cards and include iGPUs ... Intel has racked up revenues as big as Nvidia over the last several years. Another discrete GPU manufacture, but Intel isn't super inexperienced player in the GPU market.

The Intel A300 series is somewhat the iGPU they could make is didn't have share transistor budget with the the CPU+uncore function units on the mainstream laptop "CPU" packages. Or if Intel could be on a fab process two or three iterations forward from where they are now on the "CPU" transistor budgets.

Even when Intel gets to their '7' series that will only be akin to AMD x700 or Nvidia x070 range of GPU products. They aren't trying to cover the full GPU range in this first set of products. There will be B series that will probably have 300-800 families and a C series (in 2-3 years) with a wider set still ( if still full investing in this space. )
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
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My guess is that Intel is trying to take advantage of the current GPU market.

Unlikely, since these GPUs have about a 3-4 year development lead time on them.

These GPUs don’t make much sense IMO. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

For Apple Mac products they don't make much sense. For the sell everything to everybody Windows market they do make sense.

This allows a wider set of laptop products be made with the Intel Gen 12 CPU packages. Can have a utlrabook with just an iGPU and then for a modest power budget increase a CPU+dGPU option for the same chassis. So either get a broader BTO option check list or can build a highly overlapping laptop alternative for expand the product menu.
It has been the same thing system vendors have been doing with the Nvidia 250/350/450/550 only just now getting a "buy the set, get a discount" deal from Intel. Basically , they can push a $900 laptop into the $$1,200 range with these.

Similarly if in affordable Windows PC laptop land 1080 screens are still very common.

Additionally, if stuck on Intel fab processes then also makes sense . There is a cap on how big Intel can make their iGPU for the last 3-4 years. This is a way around that cap.

Would Apple have used anything in the A300 series for a MBP 15" or an iMac 21.5" ? Probably not. However, most major PC vendors have 10x the number of desktop+laptop system offerings than Apple has.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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So what's the purpose of AV1?

Watch the video. It allows higher quality video at same or lower bit rates than H.265 (HEVC). It also doesn't have royalty drama (so can stream video at lower costs ). Bigger issue for the Streaming services so they can deliver better quality video at lower costs . However, it has impacts for other video sharing services too.

The trade-off is that the encoding is more heavyweight than H.265.
 

T'hain Esh Kelch

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2001
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Apple does not support AV1 at all. Seems to be a business decision. Who knows why. They stick with HEVC instead.
Apple is part of the Open Media Alliance who developed the AV1 codec. Apple will most likely support it.
My guess is that they have saved it for A16/M2 as a sales feature, simply because AV1 content is still lacking, as widescale hardware decoder adaption is still limited.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Yes, of course. What I mean is that gamers are unlikely to choose this over Nvidia or AMD if they have the option. But it’s an additional stream of revenue for Intel in a starving market.

Which gamers? 1080p on a budget/affordable laptop gamers? The A300 is the entry subfamily Later there will be A500 and A700 offerings to cover the midrange.

The rabid , super performance at triple digit frame rate in 4K gamers ? Intel isn't offering anything there this generation at all.

entry to low end mid range gamers are more price sensitive than the high end gamers. Both AMD and Nvidia have been largely ignoring the entry GPU segment. (reasonable reasons as iGPUs get better, but opens a door ).
 

PsykX

macrumors 68030
Sep 16, 2006
2,745
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Intel has a history of being so bad at making integrated GPUs.
I'm not getting my hopes up on them making dedicated GPUs.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Apple is part of the Open Media Alliance who developed the AV1 codec. Apple will most likely support it.
My guess is that they have saved it for A16/M2 as a sales feature,

And prioritized transistor budget to dig bigger proprietary moat with ProRes than some industry standard.


simply because AV1 content is still lacking, as widescale hardware decoder adaption is still limited.


AMD RDNA2 ( 2020 )
Intel Tiger Lake (gen11) (2020 )
Nvidia 30xx ( 2020 )

The high AMD RDNA2 and Nvidia 30xx GPU prices primarily have been from very high demand problems (not supply issues. ). They have been deployed in large numbers quickly.


P.S. TV vendors also.

"... In 2021, Sony will embrace AV1. The Japanese company has confirmed to FlatpanelsHD that all of its 4K and 8K 2021 models – both OLED and LCD – with Google TV will support AV1 hardware decoding. ..."

 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
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This allows a wider set of laptop products be made with the Intel Gen 12 CPU packages. Can have a utlrabook with just an iGPU and then for a modest power budget increase a CPU+dGPU option for the same chassis. So either get a broader BTO option check list or can build a highly overlapping laptop alternative for expand the product menu.
It has been the same thing system vendors have been doing with the Nvidia 250/350/450/550 only just now getting a "buy the set, get a discount" deal from Intel. Basically , they can push a $900 laptop into the $$1,200 range with these.

If they can offer these products cheaper, sure.
entry to low end mid range gamers are more price sensitive than the high end gamers. Both AMD and Nvidia have been largely ignoring the entry GPU segment. (reasonable reasons as iGPUs get better, but opens a door ).

Not sure I understand. Mobile 3050 is very popular for the entry level gaming laptops.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Intel has a history of being so bad at making integrated GPUs.
I'm not getting my hopes up on them making dedicated GPUs.

Intel is doing several different things with their discrete GPUs.

1. They are fabing it all outside of Intel for now (at least for these Arc Xe-HPG products ). So on TSM N6 and should be transitioning to N3 in 2023.

2. With their tile/chiplet disaggregation strategy some of these smaller 'external' GPU probably are going to get coupled on package in 2023-24 with an Intel CPU tiles. So can conceptually push the iGPU onto a denser fab processor if that means more sense.

3. Long term Intel does want a wider set of products to make for themselves in their fab. They'll push dGPUs aggressively and weave them back in when it make sense. ( not likely they are going to 'quit' in next 3-4 years even if it takes that long to weave back into "in house" development. )


At the initial stages Intel's iGPUs were allocated "spare die space" from the primary focus on CPU cores and its memory subsystem. When Intel 'paused' CPU cores at a '4 count' in the mainstream dies the iGPUs started to make more progress. Intel has had leading edge video en/decode.

What they were not willing to do is "blow up" the memory controller to focus on GPU rather than CPU workloads. For a discrete GPU that isn't going to be a problem. Not really 'sharing' the transistor budget or local memory controller.

Over time Intel have been growing their ability to handle a broader and deeper software stack.

Discrete GPUs from AMD and Nvidia have been moving to higher power budgets. Intel hasn't had a major problem keeping up in the higher power budget products.


Intel recently took out some job ads for a ultra low power GPU that is different set of products than their dGPU group. That would be the more skeptical path. Intel has said was going to get a super low power GPU going ever since got skipped for the iPhone and haven't delivered since.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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entry to low end mid range gamers are more price sensitive than the high end gamers. Both AMD and Nvidia have been largely ignoring the entry GPU segment. (reasonable reasons as iGPUs get better, but opens a door ).


Not sure I understand. Mobile 3050 is very popular for the entry level gaming laptops.

I crammed two groups into one range. entry mobile GPUs to lower mid range gaming GPUs users are more price sensitive than high end mobile (and desktop) gamers.


The Mobile 3050 is not the entry level for Nvidia's mobile line up.



Intel ------ Nvidia
---------------------
A350M ----- MX550
A370M ----- MX570 ( AMD 6500M )
A550M ------ mobile 1650/3050 ( AMD 5500M )

[ and probably was/is hoping to shoot for
A750M ---- mobile 3070 ( AMD 5700M )

but that may only work out being closer at the desktop config level. ]


The bottom end of both mobile and desktop lines ( not just gamers but the whole line up) for both AMD and Nvidia has been lagging. Competition with iGPUs and shortages of wafers .. it doesn't make much sense for those two to put in much effort.

Intel it does if they can leverage bundle sales and aren't looking for fat profits. Intel makes the profit on the CPU and PCH sale and can just cover costs on the basic entry GPU. It will be tough for Intel to sell the A550M at super discount rates. It is a big die for what it is delivering.

The basic entry GPU for some folks will pragmatically end up being a "gaming" GPU for their spare time. [ No budget for a 'gaming focused' rig. ]
 

e1me5

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2013
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And prioritized transistor budget to dig bigger proprietary moat with ProRes than some industry standard
ProRes is the industry standard of the Film and Tv industry. Much more important for Apple to support it as the Pro and Studio lines are aimed to the creatives that work with video. Av1 is non-existent in this industry and I am not aware of any pro app that process video that can encode it.
 
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nastysailboat

Cancelled
May 7, 2021
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The A370M should be slightly faster than M1. Probably around 30-40% slower than M1 Pro.

My guess is that Intel is trying to take advantage of the current GPU market. These GPUs don’t make much sense IMO. Unless I am misunderstanding something.
The verge was saying these are the lowest end out of all the intel ones
 
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