Could you see Apple making a dedicated camera?

[JPack]

But the fact that customers have spoken sort of plays into what I'm saying. Maybe a certain number of the Pro owners felt they had to choose the Pro, because right now it's all or nothing when it comes to the extra lenses, so they chose all (Pro instead of the Air). Perhaps some of them chose the Pro reluctantly due to the size/weight, and if they were given a third option--to bring a full camera only when it suits them--perhaps they would have chosen it. As far as I know, there's no way to know how big or small of a group that is, so this is all conjecture.

But it seems like there should at least be a small group. It's kind of like portable batteries. Imagine for some reason the market for portable batteries was dead, and your phone battery is all there is (and wall/car charging on the go wasn't a reliable option either). How many more people would get the largest phone with the biggest battery just in case, even if most of the time they don't need that much battery? The option of a portable battery allows some people to get the smaller phone that better suits them most of the time, because they know they can bring a battery those infrequent times they need it. A compact dedicated camera could do the same. Many people are fine carrying portable batteries when needed--a camera would be about the same size, so they should be just as willing to carry it. But not if it's DSLR-sized. Just like almost no one would be willing to carry a battery the size of a DSLR, only extreme users would carry DSLR cameras, even occasionally. DSLRs are best and will always be, but again that gap has gotten small enough that for the increase in size (and probably cost? haven't looked at prices), DSLRs have too diminishing of returns for most people--most of whom are ok with ML photos.

The compact camera market is dead. But the premise of my post isn't that Apple should get into that dead market, it's that the market may start to resurrect in the near future if the smartphone road forks. One road would continue the path of phones getting bigger and heavier and more capable--the other road would split off into two devices that specialize but are integrated.

If consumers were willing to carry a separate camera, then the compact camera market wouldn't be dead! Most people don't want to carry a separate device, just for photos.

How can you compare a battery bank with camera? I can buy a Xiaomi 20,000 mAh bank for under $20. That's throwaway money so I can buy a few spares. My family and friends can all use them. An Apple camera, probably at least $1,000 or $1,500 is a very intentional, single use purchase.

Expand your view beyond just Apple iPhone and it will become obvious. Huawei, Oppo, Vivo, Xiaomi, Samsung have tried it all, tri-fold, bi-fold, large, small, flips, etc. Consumers keep returning for the largest, most capable devices. There's no fork in the road where consumers prefer separate devices, at least not in the foreseeable future.

 

[Kal Madda]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead, and now that Apple has the iPhone Air which has only one camera lens, depending on how long it sticks around I think it's possible there will be a slowly growing demand for a dedicated pocketable camera (not DSLR) that is tightly integrated with the iPhone and that would be brought along on certain occasions where a better camera is desired. Sort of like how the MagSafe battery is meant to be brought along on certain occasions where a bigger battery is desired. It's kind of modularity. But besides Air users, Standard and SE iPhone users may be interested as well (and maybe Fold users?). And if Apple is able to make the dedicated camera exceptionally good, a few Pro users might want it as well.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens. Again, this probably wouldn't be carried with an iPhone all the time, otherwise why not get a Pro (although even if one did bring around the camera all the time and the total weight/bulk would be more than an iPhone Pro, there is still the benefit of specialization--ie. having a slim/light phone to use whenever not using the camera, and having a probably better camera than the Pro).

I could possibly see this happening, though perhaps not completely in the way you’d expect. Apple is rumored to be developing a smart home camera. We don’t know what quality of camera it’s going to be, if I really had to guess, I would say probably 12MP sensor, but who knows, maybe not considering they’ve moved away from 12MP on most of the iPhone lineup, so could just recycle the 48MP single sensor being used for the iPhone 16e. But such a smart home camera I could definitely see including better zoom than most iPhones, and would almost certainly be able to integrate directly with iCloud. So that could possibly the form in which we see a dedicated camera from Apple, at least at first.

Personally, I don’t see the market for a separate single-purpose device aka pocket camera being very high. Especially if you combine the price of your phone plus this device, it would probably either be just as expensive or even more expensive than an iPhone Pro model. It’s like purpose built iPods and MP3 players in general are practically dead, which is why Apple discontinued the iPod.

I think the only way the sell it is to Pros who are willing to carry extra hardware for much better image capabilities than what the iPhone offers. It would have to be a niche and Pro-oriented product if it would succeed in my opinion. 👍🏻

 

[Jamie0003]

Apple sell a camera, it’s called the iPhone

 

[erikkfi]

I wish they would go for making a prosumer-grade mirrorless.

In terms of technology I think it's a great idea. Their processing is top-shelf. Purely from a results perspective I think they could make a phenomenal dedicated mirrorless-style camera.

In terms of design I think it'd be a disaster. Apple is allergic to buttons, knobs, dials, and controls.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead, and now that Apple has the iPhone Air which has only one camera lens, depending on how long it sticks around I think it's possible there will be a slowly growing demand for a dedicated pocketable camera (not DSLR) that is tightly integrated with the iPhone and that would be brought along on certain occasions where a better camera is desired. Sort of like how the MagSafe battery is meant to be brought along on certain occasions where a bigger battery is desired. It's kind of modularity. But besides Air users, Standard and SE iPhone users may be interested as well (and maybe Fold users?). And if Apple is able to make the dedicated camera exceptionally good, a few Pro users might want it as well.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens. Again, this probably wouldn't be carried with an iPhone all the time, otherwise why not get a Pro (although even if one did bring around the camera all the time and the total weight/bulk would be more than an iPhone Pro, there is still the benefit of specialization--ie. having a slim/light phone to use whenever not using the camera, and having a probably better camera than the Pro).

No. Apple's camera UI is horrific, worse than bad. We tolerate the atrocious UI because it is primarily a smartphone, but Apple simply lacks the competence to make a good real camera.

Apple's iPhone Pro cameras are superb except for the UI. Apple should stick with improving the iPhone cameras every year. Jumping in to the crashing small camera market would be an absurd idea.

 

[H_D]

I don’t see it, there’s too much established competition like Sony, Nikon, Leica, Canon or Fuji, with buyers in the respective lenses-ecosystems. I don’t see Apple venturing backwards to a legacy market with eroding margins.

It would be fun if they bought Olympus for a nickel and had some fun with M4/3, probably the last option to save that format and maybe revive the PenF ;-).

But I think Apple will not make a dedicated camera but rather go further with establishing the iPhone as a photography platform. And maybe add cameras to wearables, seems more likely than going into a market that sounds even less promising than VR.

 

[subjonas]

If consumers were willing to carry a separate camera, then the compact camera market wouldn't be dead! Most people don't want to carry a separate device, just for photos.

How can you compare a battery bank with camera? I can buy a Xiaomi 20,000 mAh bank for under $20. That's throwaway money so I can buy a few spares. My family and friends can all use them. An Apple camera, probably at least $1,000 or $1,500 is a very intentional, single use purchase.

Expand your view beyond just Apple iPhone and it will become obvious. Huawei, Oppo, Vivo, Xiaomi, Samsung have tried it all, tri-fold, bi-fold, large, small, flips, etc. Consumers keep returning for the largest, most capable devices. There's no fork in the road where consumers prefer separate devices, at least not in the foreseeable future.

The point of the portable battery example was merely to show that many people will carry a second device if it's compact, useful, and occasional (occasional is a key word). Whether someone will buy a second device is a different but related question, since they won't buy it if they won't carry it. But there are of course examples of people opting to buy expensive second devices: smaller phone + iPad vs one large phone; iPad + laptop vs one touch laptop device; phone + DSLR vs one flagship phone. So there are markets for combined devices, and markets for specialized devices, but the question is simply how big each market is. I believe I've said quite a few times that I know the camera market is dead, as well as the reason that I think it's possible that could change somewhat in the near future.

Yes, manufacturers are making these bigger heavier flagship phones and people buy them up. But my point is this can't go on forever, right? There won't be a 500g phone. Eventually and inevitably there has to be a point where the physical growth of phones will start to turn off significant portions of the mainstream regardless of how capable phones become. Who knows when but I don't think it will happen to everyone all at once. People act according to a bell curve, so at a certain point, enough of the mainstream will get frustrated and start to split off to warrant response from phone manufacturers, but still many people will continue to accept more size/weight for the sake of more function. But the question is what happens to the small but growing market of former flagship users willing to spend money, but who want a more comfortable phone? I think that's what the Galaxy Edge and iPhone Air were an attempted answer to. They suggested that Samsung and Apple believed that split was going to start in their most recent flagship lineups, so they offered the most comfortable flagship phone experience they could come up with. But their lack of commercial success suggests that they were too early and/or the execution was wrong. I think it might be both. We apparently haven't hit the tipping point for size/weight yet. And as far as execution, I think they can't take away function without an option to regain it all back with secondary devices. In all the other examples of two specialized devices vs one compromise device, in either case all functions were pretty much covered with a different combination of devices, making the choice more even. But with the Air, it took away functions that Pro users had and didn't give an optional way to gain them all back. The extra speaker and bigger battery could be regained by Bluetooth and a MagSafe battery or more regular charging, but the extra camera lenses--which I think was the biggest loss--could not be regained at all.

So a market opening back up for compact cameras is contingent on there eventually being that split, and eventually the offering being one thicker phone vs slimmer phone + slim camera (again the camera to be brought occasionally, as most secondary devices are).

 

[subjonas]

I could possibly see this happening, though perhaps not completely in the way you’d expect. Apple is rumored to be developing a smart home camera. We don’t know what quality of camera it’s going to be, if I really had to guess, I would say probably 12MP sensor, but who knows, maybe not considering they’ve moved away from 12MP on most of the iPhone lineup, so could just recycle the 48MP single sensor being used for the iPhone 16e. But such a smart home camera I could definitely see including better zoom than most iPhones, and would almost certainly be able to integrate directly with iCloud. So that could possibly the form in which we see a dedicated camera from Apple, at least at first.

Personally, I don’t see the market for a separate single-purpose device aka pocket camera being very high. Especially if you combine the price of your phone plus this device, it would probably either be just as expensive or even more expensive than an iPhone Pro model. It’s like purpose built iPods and MP3 players in general are practically dead, which is why Apple discontinued the iPod.

I think the only way the sell it is to Pros who are willing to carry extra hardware for much better image capabilities than what the iPhone offers. It would have to be a niche and Pro-oriented product if it would succeed in my opinion. 👍🏻

Price may be comparable or higher, but often two specialized devices are more expensive than one 2-in-1 device. But the two specialized devices have the benefit of doing both jobs better. A light phone is easier to carry and use, and a dedicated camera would most likely be better than a phone camera.

 

[subjonas]

No. Apple's camera UI is horrific, worse than bad. We tolerate the atrocious UI because it is primarily a smartphone, but Apple simply lacks the competence to make a good real camera.

Apple's iPhone Pro cameras are superb except for the UI. Apple should stick with improving the iPhone cameras every year. Jumping in to the crashing small camera market would be an absurd idea.

Is the UI that bad? It's probably fine for pedestrian users like me.

I've tried to explain my thoughts better in subsequent posts in this thread, but what I mean is things might change in the smartphone market to where there may be a little room for dedicated compact cameras. Basically, if phones eventually get so big and heavy that a significant enough portion of the mainstream gets frustrated, the market may branch off with one branch opting for a slimmer phone plus a slim camera with more capability and good integration, to bring on occasion.

 

[theluggage]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead

Not dead, just decimated (colloquially - not in the pedantic 1-in10 sense). They range from cheap <$100 no-name (or Kodak-in-name-only & truly point-and-shoot) ranging to >$1500 Leicas (haven't checked the provenance). So an Apple compact camera would be launching against stiff competition (often emblazoned with famous historical camera brands) into an existing market that has already taken a massive haircut and is probably still shrinking.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens.

One of the reasons that smartphone cameras decimated point-and-shoot & compacts (even when smartphone cameras were far worse than today's flagship models) is:

The best camera is the one you have with you (Chase Jarvis)

Smartphones absolutely nail that. Plus, they naturally integrate with cloud and social media accounts (your Twixtockbookogram app probably has a built-in camera button) and let you store, preview, correct and edit photos on a large high resolution touchscreen.

The main advantage of a compact over an iPhone is the ability to have a substantially larger sensor and lens (and maybe a mount for a proper flashgun) - and that's mainly for people who want to use "real photographer" focal length/depth-of-field techniques rather than let AI simulate them. The bigger the lens & sensor, the less "pocketable" the camera will be. So it's still a narrow niche between high-end phone cameras and Bridge Cameras/DSLRs - which often add the other big advantage of a viewfinder (optical or digital) so that you can see what you're shooting in bright conditions.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera)

So... an iPhone Pro with a worse screen (so you need another iPhone if you want to preview and edit in the field) and smaller battery (which probably now has to run a motor-driven zoom lens & still has to drive a 4G/5G transmitter) that would still need 90% of the iPhone functionality (including an eSIM and mobile account if you wanted it to integrate with iCloud).

Apple may not make a dedicated camera but a major point of the top-end iPhones is their improved cameras for people more serious about photography. You're not going to buy one of those just for phone calls and messaging.

 

[Abazigal]

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

I feel like instead expecting me to dedicate an entire iPhone to use as a webcam for the Apple TV, Apple could either open this up to third parties. For example, the next Apple TV could some with a usb c port that supports webcams (similar to how it works for the Switch 2). Alternatively, make their own apple-branded webcam that can maybe connect wirelessly to the Apple TV, as well as any other device that would support continuity camera. Not everyone has a spare iPhone lying around.

 

[subjonas]

Not dead, just decimated (colloquially - not in the pedantic 1-in10 sense). They range from cheap <$100 no-name (or Kodak-in-name-only & truly point-and-shoot) ranging to >$1500 Leicas (haven't checked the provenance). So an Apple compact camera would be launching against stiff competition (often emblazoned with famous historical camera brands) into an existing market that has already taken a massive haircut and is probably still shrinking.

One of the reasons that smartphone cameras decimated point-and-shoot & compacts (even when smartphone cameras were far worse than today's flagship models) is:


Smartphones absolutely nail that. Plus, they naturally integrate with cloud and social media accounts (your Twixtockbookogram app probably has a built-in camera button) and let you store, preview, correct and edit photos on a large high resolution touchscreen.

The main advantage of a compact over an iPhone is the ability to have a substantially larger sensor and lens (and maybe a mount for a proper flashgun) - and that's mainly for people who want to use "real photographer" focal length/depth-of-field techniques rather than let AI simulate them. The bigger the lens & sensor, the less "pocketable" the camera will be. So it's still a narrow niche between high-end phone cameras and Bridge Cameras/DSLRs - which often add the other big advantage of a viewfinder (optical or digital) so that you can see what you're shooting in bright conditions.

I agree this describes the situation up until this point. What I maybe didn't make clear in my first post, but tried to make clearer in subsequent posts, is that I'm proposing the possibility that the situation may change where there may be some room for the compact camera market to come back to some degree. As phones continue to get bulkier for the sake of better cameras, at some point there may be a significant number of flagship users who tire of having to use uncomfortable phones in order to have the best camera system which they may actually only use the extent of rarely. Heavier camera users will surely continue wanting the best camera with them at all times. But others may realize they only need a basic/decent camera with them at all times (integrated in their phones), but would still like the option to carry a more advanced camera (ideally even better than the flagship phone camera) on occasion. At that point, two specialized devices--a high end phone that prioritizes comfort, and a high end compact camera even more powerful and with good integration--may appeal to them more than one bulky flagship phone. This would allow them to use a comfortable phone all the time, and only bring the advanced camera functionality when they foresee needing it. Compact not DSLR size because I think few people are willing to bring a camera that they can't pocket. The camera doesn't need to be at DSLR level just as long as it's significantly better than the compromised camera on their phone.

Apple doesn't have to be the ones to make this camera, but there are reasons it would make sense. Their compute hardware and software technology seems to be more advanced than the camera makers. I saw the 7 year old Cyber Shot rx100 vii (apparently still one of the best compact cameras in existence) compared to a 17 Pro camera, and the 17 Pro matched or outperformed the Cyber Shot in virtually every way--plus the 17 Pro was significantly cheaper and more compact. So it suggests if Apple made a dedicated camera, it would outperform camera makers even more. Plus Apple can implement better ecosystem integration with a first party product. But perhaps they could instead just give camera makers APIs for the integration features.

So... an iPhone Pro with a worse screen (so you need another iPhone if you want to preview and edit in the field) and smaller battery (which probably now has to run a motor-driven zoom lens & still has to drive a 4G/5G transmitter) that would still need 90% of the iPhone functionality (including an eSIM and mobile account if you wanted it to integrate with iCloud).

Apple may not make a dedicated camera but a major point of the top-end iPhones is their improved cameras for people more serious about photography. You're not going to buy one of those just for phone calls and

The camera is a secondary device, so you will have your phone on you, and if the integration is done right the photo should appear on your phone immediately if you want to touch it up. It should also appear immediately in your iPad or MacBook if you want to touch it up on those. It doesn't have to have a smaller screen and battery but I think it would be appropriate because the screen only needs to be big enough to compose the shot and review the photos, and the battery doesn't need to power it all day like a phone, only the times you're taking pictures, so why make it bulkier (and costlier) than it needs to be. But I suppose people will want it to be a full on phone with a big screen, big battery, all the radios, all the RAM, and running iOS. But then it might be impractically huge because it would be a full on phone and a full on camera.

 

[Kal Madda]

Not a separate camera module per-se, but would improve the reach of the iPhone Pro’s built-in camera. 👍🏻. And there are already third party ones on the market for the iPhone, so that’s kind of like what you’re talking about. 👍🏻

iPhone 18 Pro: Apple rumoured to be testing new variable aperture and innovative camera accessory

It seems that Apple may finally be jumping aboard the teleconverter accessory bandwagon. Already offered by Oppo, Vivo and Xiaomi, the new accessory is said to be designed for the iPhone 18 Pro and iPhone 18 Pro Max, which are also rumoured to ship with built-in variable aperture camera hardware.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[theluggage]

The camera is a secondary device, so you will have your phone on you, and if the integration is done right the photo should appear on your phone immediately if you want to touch it up.

So you have to put away the camera and take out the phone if you want to touch up, edit or even just preview the image on a larger, pinch-zoomable screen... Versus the convenience of having everything in one unit. The market has already voted for the convenience of a smartphone camera over a separate compact - and the only thing that has changed since then is that smartphone cameras have got a lot better c.f. compacts.

I suspect that the majority of people who cared about photography would either put up with the quality/convenience trade-off of a flagship smartphone or carry a bridge camera or DSLR with substantially better optics and versatility... and, if I'm wrong, there's still a range of compact/travel zoom cameras with big-name optics and, in some cases, wireless syncing.

 

[Evil Lair]

I think the better approach would be for Apple to make a dedicated camera body/module that you attach an iPhone to, kind of like those existing infrared modules.

 

[avro707]

I wish they would go for making a prosumer-grade mirrorless.

In terms of technology I think it's a great idea. Their processing is top-shelf. Purely from a results perspective I think they could make a phenomenal dedicated mirrorless-style camera.

In terms of design I think it'd be a disaster. Apple is allergic to buttons, knobs, dials, and controls.

The thing is, whose lenses would they use? I cannot see Apple going and creating a whole lot of expensive glass on its own for something that may not threaten the established players who have the advantage of customers who already have boxes full of expensive lenses that just work and access to Professional Services schemes from the camera manufacturer that are very helpful.

I don’t think it is worth Apple trying to go to this market.

Better stay with phone cameras - and maybe develop some attachments for those. Leave DSLRs to do their thing.

Apple UX approach is very different to that on the cameras. Although a Nikon D6 might seem at first dated with its dials and buttons, in practice they are extremely practical and fast to operate, in various weather conditions. They have been refined over a lot of years. You could go from a D3S and just pick up the new camera and make it work.

Apple sometimes has strange UX ideas that are not better or easier. For cameras you cannot do that.

 

[AL2TEACH]

A camera for the general public eh that's a no because what does Apple make for the general public.
A camera for Apple users would be too expensive.