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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,754
1,453
New York City, NY
You are misunderstanding a few things. I'm not arguing on a personal level. You might "like" Apple, but "liking" a company is not grounds for anything in a discussion that doesn't involve your personal taste. Generalizing our argument a little bit, I "like" Linux too, but I wouldn't be crazy enough to affirm your average Linux distribution is a mainstream OS for the average user.

So, you liking Apple doesn't say much about concrete advantages and value to the average Joe.

I never said anything about liking Apple the company or not. I just said I have no problems with my Apple Silicon powered Mac Studio.

You spoke of apps that don't run right on your Apple Silicon Mac. There were also PowerPC apps that didn't run right on Intel Macs. I now have apps that don't run on Intel Macs. When there's a change to a new platform, it should be assumed that not all old apps from the previous platform will run correctly on the new one.

The makers of Cuphead need to update the app to be compatible with Apple Silicon. Apple has not done anything to prevent/prohibit them from updating their app.
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
840
748
You spoke of apps that don't run right on your Apple Silicon Mac. There were also PowerPC apps that didn't run right on Intel Macs. I now have apps that don't run on Intel Macs. When there's a change to a new platform, it should be assumed that not all old apps from the previous platform will run correctly on the new one.

I didn't. I either mentioned apps that were not available (thus, where you need to use virtualization) or where there isn't a clear advantage on running them on a Mac.

And this second item is the issue now: people are buying a Mac, but the advantage they have running it is either diminishing or null. But Apple is still taxing people more and more.
 

pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,754
1,453
New York City, NY
I didn't. I either mentioned apps that were not available (thus, where you need to use virtualization) or where there isn't a clear advantage on running them on a Mac.

And this second item is the issue now: people are buying a Mac, but the advantage they have running it is either diminishing or null. But Apple is still taxing people more and more.

Windows PCs do exist. It sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
 
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Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
840
748
Windows PCs do exist. It sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

Aaaand you're missing the point again.
This is not a personal discussion about what PC I like best. I'm not LOOKING for anything.
I'm arguing that Apple is not offering a good "bang for the buck".
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
Not exactly. I am steering away - at least on the desktop - because Apple no lnger offers anything akin the Mac Pro 5.1. The 7.1 is not really in that ballpark for Apple has priced me (and a lot of others like me, i.e. enthusiasts) out. So not talking about Epyc. But a machine with replaceable RAM, SSD, Graphics

Ah, if you want replaceable RAM and Graphics, I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,754
1,453
New York City, NY
Aaaand you're missing the point again.
This is not a personal discussion about what PC I like best. I'm not LOOKING for anything.
I'm arguing that Apple is not offering a good "bang for the buck".

Apple has never been the cheapest option. Remember the Lisa? If dollar amount is what matters to you, don't look at any Apple products.

That being said, I don't mind paying $4000+ for a Mac. I will not pay $500 for a Windows machine.
 
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Romain_H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2021
520
438
Ah, if you want replaceable RAM and Graphics, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Yeah, exactly. Not to mention the price to be expected. As said: paradoxical situation. Great CPU, but only acceptable in notebooks. “So sad“
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
840
748
That being said, I don't mind paying $4000+ for a Mac. I will not pay $500 for a Windows machine.

But we're not on a forum to discuss your tastes in personal computing. While some users might pay whatever value Apple wants them to, most won't – and especially so if the value isn't there (I.e, if Apple doesn't offer something that justifies it).
 

name99

macrumors 68020
Jun 21, 2004
2,410
2,317
I'm not sure what your point is.

No matter how good Apple is doing, the desktop market (as in "the market that sells big, non-portable towers to people") is a declining market. So much so that everyone discusses here all the time how they AREN'T prioritizing the iMac.

It's nice that Apple is doing well here, but I wouldn't be proud of it.



You are misunderstanding a few things. I'm not arguing on a personal level. You might "like" Apple, but "liking" a company is not grounds for anything in a discussion that doesn't involve your personal taste. Generalizing our argument a little bit, I "like" Linux too, but I wouldn't be crazy enough to affirm your average Linux distribution is a mainstream OS for the average user.

So, you liking Apple doesn't say much about concrete advantages and value to the average Joe.
You are the one who keeps making huge pronouncements, then claiming you didn't make them as soon as anyone challenges you. You said "<blah blah details of new Apple silicon macs> has actually driven people AWAY from Apple".
This is a specific claim. It also is a *false* claim, as evidenced by the data I gave.
Your claim was not "fewer people are buying Macs", it was "people are being driven away from Macs and towards x86 because <'locked down' macs vs 'open' x86>"...

I don't care what you think about Apple; you can rant "I hate Apple and so should everyone else" as much as you like. But when you make specific claims that are false, don't be surprised when people call you on it...
 

name99

macrumors 68020
Jun 21, 2004
2,410
2,317
Aaaand you're missing the point again.
This is not a personal discussion about what PC I like best. I'm not LOOKING for anything.
I'm arguing that Apple is not offering a good "bang for the buck".
If you just keep repeating a claim while ignoring all evidence that goes contrary to your claim, that's not any sort of argument, let alone a debate.
It's a rant, and a boring one.
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,754
1,453
New York City, NY
But we're not on a forum to discuss your tastes in personal computing. While some users might pay whatever value Apple wants them to, most won't – and especially so if the value isn't there (I.e, if Apple doesn't offer something that justifies it).

How do you know how each person determines whether or not Macs justify their prices?
 
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Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
840
748
You are the one who keeps making huge pronouncements, then claiming you didn't make them as soon as anyone challenges you. You said "<blah blah details of new Apple silicon macs> has actually driven people AWAY from Apple".
This is a specific claim. It also is a *false* claim, as evidenced by the data I gave.
Your claim was not "fewer people are buying Macs", it was "people are being driven away from Macs and towards x86 because <'locked down' macs vs 'open' x86>"...

Thank you for providing data that suggests Apple is growing in the declining desktop market. However, I would like to point out that Apple's pricing point may be a barrier for many consumers outside of the US and Japan. Additionally, I believe that the value that Apple offers in relation to its competitors may be declining, and I have not seen any evidence to refute this point. I do not hate Apple, I own some of their products and simply have a different perspective on the value they provide.

On your growth argument, Statista also reports that global shipments of desktop PCs declined by 12.4% in 2020, according to the International Data Corporation (IDC). Additionally, IDC found that shipments of Apple Macs declined by 16.4% in the same year. This further indicates that Apple has not grown on the desktop market as much as people make it seem.

Other sources that support this argument include Gartner, which reported a 9.7% year-over-year decline in PC shipments in 2020. Additionally, Canalys reported a 17.7% year-over-year decline in Apple’s Mac shipments in the same year.
 

pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,754
1,453
New York City, NY
Thank you for providing data that suggests Apple is growing in the declining desktop market. However, I would like to point out that Apple's pricing point may be a barrier for many consumers outside of the US and Japan. Additionally, I believe that the value that Apple offers in relation to its competitors may be declining, and I have not seen any evidence to refute this point.

If everything were based on dollar amount alone, Apple would never sell anything.

If you do not see the value in Macs, don't buy them. Those who do, will.
 
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mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
I just sit there and wonder; my last MacBook could do this, why does this $4000 racecar of a computer fail at the most basic of entertainment tasks? It feels like such a waste to have the equivalent of 3080 and yet I can't play Elden Ring, most online games or any VR.
You can't play Elden Ring or those other things because their developers decided not to put them on the Mac, not because Apple blocked them.

Apple has voiced refusal in ever adding support for Vulkan - which would immediately open MacOS to Proton and every game on the Steam Deck. It's hard to know why they hold this stance; perhaps they want to try for vendor lock in with the Metal API in the same way Microsoft did with DirectX, after all, who would use Metal if Vulkan was supported?
It's not hard to understand why Apple doesn't want to support Vulkan, you just have to know that there's some history. The first domino was that Khronos Group (GL's industry consortium, which at the time included Apple) repeatedly failed to ratify efforts to modernize OpenGL, mostly due to political maneuvering by a certain major player (not Apple) which didn't want it to happen. At some point, after years of frustration, Apple decided they were done with Khronos, OpenGL, and even OpenCL (their own baby - they created CL and donated it to Khronos). That's when they started work on Metal. Khronos eventually got its act together and came up with GLnext aka Vulkan, but this came far too late to get Apple to come back.

The idea that Apple adding Vulkan would "immediately open MacOS to Proton and every game on the Steam Deck" must be some kind of web forum mythology you're repeating, because this isn't the first time I've seen it, and in nearly the same words. The reality is that Proton is its own complex software project. If Valve wanted to port Proton to Mac, they'd have a lot of work to do even if Apple provided Vulkan. And not having Vulkan isn't fatal, either - they could translate DX3D to Metal API calls instead, or insert MoltenVK as an additional shim.

But the real sticking point is that Valve would have to actually want to port Proton to Mac. That's the barrier, not Apple. Valve's approach to Mac hasn't visibly changed since Apple Silicon - the Mac platform is still an afterthought to them. So it's probably not going to happen.

The other thing I want to mention here is that creating their own API is expected for any company as large as Microsoft or Apple. Why isn't absolutely everything in their respective operating systems an open standard? A cynical answer is: because that would make them less money. A less cynical answer is: no company wants to deal with a bunch of external people not in their own management structure - including people employed by competitors! - making product decisions for them. Any company large enough to do its own thing (and to make it stick) is likely to try. Neither is the full truth, IMO, but they're both part of the truth.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
Khronos eventually got its act together and came up with GLnext aka Vulkan, but this came far too late to get Apple to come back.

A quick note: Apple was part of the committee and one of the initial backers for Vulkan. A year later or so when the first Vulkan draft was presented Apple was gone from the list. I remember writing a long angry rant on Apple dev forums (and other places) about Apple abandoning the standardization. Then I looked at the draft spec and said yikes. Apple wanted an easy to learn progressive API that would allow devs to quickly build powerful and flexible software. Vulkan is a prime example of premature optimization. That’s what happens if you let a bunch of old–school C hackers design an API. The entire thing is optimized for minimizing API call overhead (which is entirely pointless) at the cost of insane conceptual complexity. And the shading language massively sucks.


But the real sticking point is that Valve would have to actually want to port Proton to Mac. That's the barrier, not Apple.
To be fair, there are still some practical difficulties in bridging API semantics, especially in the area of resource synchronization and memory. Metal allows memory to be paged out, and so any use of GPU objects has to be communicated to the system so they can be loaded back in case (and this clearly illustrates another limitation of current Apple GPU technology – it has only limited support for virtual memory).
The other thing I want to mention here is that creating their own API is expected for any company as large as Microsoft or Apple. Why isn't absolutely everything in their respective operating systems an open standard? A cynical answer is: because that would make them less money. A less cynical answer is: no company wants to deal with a bunch of external people not in their own management structure - including people employed by competitors! - making product decisions for them. Any company large enough to do its own thing (and to make it stick) is likely to try. Neither is the full truth, IMO, but they're both part of the truth.
What’s hilarious is that the people who bash Apple for not supporting open standards are also the same people who praise Nvidia for CUDA, which de–facto killed open standards in GPU computing (Ironically, creating open standards here was largely Apples effort). Talk about hypocrisy. It’s fun to bash Apple after all.
 

Appletoni

Suspended
Mar 26, 2021
443
177
You are steering away from the Mac because it does not offer something like a 196-core EPYC system (which is what OP seems to be talking about)? I somehow doubt this is the case (I mean, how many people use datacenter multiprocessor systems as their everyday desktop computer?).

More likely you concerned about the platform because you fear that a laptop chip in an ultracompact form factor might not serve your needs for a long time. This is absolutely justified and I think we all agree that Apple needs to produce chips that can scale up to the needs and capabilities of desktop form factors (in particular, higher thermal limits). But this doesn't require an EPYC-class system. It simply requires Apple Silicon that is capable of running at higher frequencies or a new wider design or both. A 16-core M2-equivalent CPU running at 4+ghz for example would favourably compare to top of the line Raptor Lake while still consuming significantly less power.

I want and need 196 CPU cores in my MacBook!
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
I want and need 196 CPU cores in my MacBook!

Get one of these. Still only 64 cores...

pZpEP7gdRE4tmoB6gC5RHk.jpg


threadripperlaptop800.jpg
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,663
OBX
You can't play Elden Ring or those other things because their developers decided not to put them on the Mac, not because Apple blocked them.
You mean because putting them on macOS has poor ROI, not because Apple blocked them.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,148
675
Malaga, Spain
You mean because putting them on macOS has poor ROI, not because Apple blocked them.
I wouldn't want to play anything like Elden Ring on the internal display of the MBP14" and 16".. The response times are crazy.

The hardware is there and I do hope gaming comes to the Mac eventually because I'm tired of having to carry my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro on the go to play my games.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,663
OBX
I wouldn't want to play anything like Elden Ring on the internal display of the MBP14" and 16".. The response times are crazy.

The hardware is there and I do hope gaming comes to the Mac eventually because I'm tired of having to carry my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro on the go to play my games.
TBF I've not seen anyone complain about the poor response time WRT Resident Evil 8.
 

Xiao_Xi

macrumors 68000
Oct 27, 2021
1,627
1,101
High Yield has made the first die shot analysis of the M2 Pro SoC.
M2-Pro-die-shot-analysis.jpg


Awaiting Locuza die shot analysis.
 
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