Credit where credits due

[crashoverride77]

I'd have to agree with aevan. Must be something causing this but does not happen when I use preview or use the finder in icon view, column view or as cover flow.

I have some large photo libraries and checked some raw tiff pictures and they all open very quickly and are almost instantly viewable in the all finder views as well as opening very fast in Preview. Even EPS files open quickly.



Agreed, this is the best launch in my view of any OSX and it's not even official yet, am hooked and not looking back. iCloud drive is finally working well and syncing, love the notes and reminders updates, emails that prompt to add missing contact info, maps that finally work and sync properly, multiple display and airplay works better than ever, and most importantly everything just seems to work better.

Credit where credit is due

Yep, thats exactly what I think. I am so happy with ElCapitan, they really focused on it this year.
iOS 9 is not looking too bad either but its just not as polished as El Capitan and lacks the overall smoothness.
The only thing that I noticed so far is that swipe to delete emails needs to be more way sensitive, I can hardly make it work.
With El Capitan it feels like I can finally leave my Mac turned on again for weeks without the performance degredation that happened in Yosemite. And the few features they have added are very nice too, overall I am very pleased.

 

[Superhai]

They should spend less time making keynote graphs and more time actually using their OS with professional users.

I doubt it will help with fewer keynotes but I see your point. My theory is that Apple use the developer community actively in improving their OS, and they receive their betas and previews. And thus they are actively encouraged to submit issues and faults. For other users of the OS, like "creative" users who have to manage large files in Finder like in this case, rarely do Apple see these feedbacks, and will probably only expect feedback related to the software they are using. Software developers rarely have to work with these files, and often receive these files already prepared from their graphics departments.
So Apple may know about issues and will at some time fix them, but other issues which are reported more frequently receive much higher resources. And unfortunately posting on boards like macrumors, or even apples own discussions forums will receive near to nothing attention when assigning resources.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I doubt it will help with fewer keynotes but I see your point. My theory is that Apple use the developer community actively in improving their OS, and they receive their betas and previews. And thus they are actively encouraged to submit issues and faults. For other users of the OS, like "creative" users who have to manage large files in Finder like in this case, rarely do Apple see these feedbacks, and will probably only expect feedback related to the software they are using. Software developers rarely have to work with these files, and often receive these files already prepared from their graphics departments.
So Apple may know about issues and will at some time fix them, but other issues which are reported more frequently receive much higher resources. And unfortunately posting on boards like macrumors, or even apples own discussions forums will receive near to nothing attention when assigning resources.

We do know that Adobe is always engaged with professionals and invites them for ideas and testing, very much like how Steam gets gamers involved in game development these days. But even Adobe makes exaggerated claims from time to time whenever they have a major release.

 

[Superhai]

But even Adobe makes exaggerated claims from time to time whenever they have a major release.

Adobe, and Apple, and most other companies need to sell their software, not only too their primary target, but also executives, semi-professionals, hobbyist and others who have lesser interest in the product, but may need them or will be in the supply chain before the end-users get their copy.

 

[MacsRgr8]

My iMac 5K previews 4K tiff files very smoothly in El Capitan, and it has a slower GPU and CPU than your Mac Pro. Perhaps your disk drive is slow?

I think your iMac has faster single core (and probably up to 4 cores) performance than the mentioned Mac Pro.
The 12 Cores fly when fully utilised. I assume previewing TIFF files won't require many threads.

The GPU is DEFINITELY faster on the Mac Pro!
GTX 980 gets me drooling....

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I think your iMac has faster single core (and probably up to 4 cores) performance than the mentioned Mac Pro.
The 12 Cores fly when fully utilised. I assume previewing TIFF files won't require many threads.

The GPU is DEFINITELY faster on the Mac Pro!
GTX 980 gets me drooling....

Regardless of the cores, the Finder simply gives up trying to render thumbnails in icon view of the file sizes are large and there's a significant number of them. Randomly it will sometimes render some, then not render others. It's clearly a case of Apple not giving enough attention to the fact that files are growing bigger every year.

 

[dyn]

File location : NTFS formatted hard drive.

The test video:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6435733/housetest.mov

Windows 10
File opens immediately in Windows Photo Viewer and renders in 4 seconds.

El Cap GM1
QuickLook : file beachballs and opens in 22 seconds
Preview : app hangs and finally opens image in 24 seconds

How are the numbers when you do this from an HFS+ formatted drive? Just to rule out any performance benefits that Windows might gain since it has full NTFS support unlike non-Microsoft parties such as Apple (it goes without saying that when you had used HFS+ you should re-test it with NTFS for the same reason).

Photoshop still opens files at normal pretty fast speeds, proving that the Finder and Preview need work.

So does Windows Explorer and the previewers in Windows itself. There are other use cases where these will fail just as miserably. Or in other words: for some Windows might work better than OS X, for others it will be OS X. It is good to know the limitations of the software you're using so do share these things!

Don't forget that nearly every filemanager disables certain features when a file is larger than a certain amount. These are mostly features like thumbnails/icon previews. IIRC both Windows and OS X do this. Obviously this is to protect the system from doing too much work on tasks that are not that important (such as thumbnails/icon previews). The system will dedicate its resources towards more important tasks running on the system thus keeping the system responsive enough.

It remains to be seen if it is really a Finder problem at all. There could be some real issues with the viewer that is used for viewing TIFF and PDF files. They did some work on this part to increase the performance. Maybe they need to do some more tweaking.

From a sysadmin point of view I can tell you that opening these kind of large files is quite a challenge for any OS and any application. One should raise the question if these files need to be that large. In some cases there are better ways for storing the data or things need to be saved differently (not everything needs the highest quality). I have seen people do really crazy stuff to their files and folders and it is quite often a pita to troubleshoot. Large files in general are quite problematic...or should we say "challenging" ?

Btw, performance isn't just in having the biggest number. There has to be a certain balance between the various components (cpu, gpu, disk, memory) in order for the machine to give a good performance. That's why in some cases you can have a higher specced machine underperform a lower specced machine.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

How are the numbers when you do this from an HFS+ formatted drive?







From a sysadmin point of view I can tell you that opening these kind of large files is quite a challenge for any OS and any application. One should raise the question if these files need to be that large.

I'll test Windows reading from HFS when I get home.

Regarding your query above. Your standard RAW or TIFF coming out of a studio camera these days is around 40-50MB minimum. Then you add your retouched, comes and adjustments. You will be lucky to have a file size under 200MB. This will be double in the years to come because camera sensors are rapidly cramming more pixels and so are monitors.

But there's a point I made earlier that is very easy to miss. Bridge has been able to handle these files for years now, even on a Core Duo with Intel graphics over 6-7 years ago. Bridge doesn't even use graphics acceleration and the app is rarely ever updated. It just asks the CPU to make thumbnails. Yet the Finder still can't do it today on much better hardware. When you note this very simple example then you cannot make an excuse for the Finder, at all.

 

[dyn]

I know about the 30~40MB files and even the 200MB files but those are not really large files. The 3GB file you discussed earlier is more like it (I'm used to larger files from data capture devices).

You are also drawing an incorrect conclusion. Finder does not have anything to do with display images or PDF files, this is done by a different component that is also used by Preview and many other apps. The issue does not lay with Finder but with the component that is used for displaying the images/PDF files.
The same applies to quicklook. It is a completely separate component from Finder (quicklookd) with it's own set of little apps (or commands if you want to call it; think mdfind and mdutil). It uses its own set of plugins in order to preview certain files. Some plugins might obstruct other plugins workings (I ran into that issue when one plugin opened up all files, even the ones that should be handled by a different plugin; problem was that only the other plugin was able to display it correctly).

You're blaming the wrong one here.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I know about the 30~40MB files and even the 200MB files but those are not really large files. The 3GB file you discussed earlier is more like it (I'm used to larger files from data capture devices).

You are also drawing an incorrect conclusion. Finder does not have anything to do with display images or PDF files, this is done by a different component that is also used by Preview and many other apps. The issue does not lay with Finder but with the component that is used for displaying the images/PDF files.
The same applies to quicklook. It is a completely separate component from Finder (quicklookd) with it's own set of little apps (or commands if you want to call it; think mdfind and mdutil). It uses its own set of plugins in order to preview certain files. Some plugins might obstruct other plugins workings (I ran into that issue when one plugin opened up all files, even the ones that should be handled by a different plugin; problem was that only the other plugin was able to display it correctly).

You're blaming the wrong one here.

Yes, you're right about the plugin component but as long as Finder and Preview use it then we shouldn't separate the two. It's all part of Apple's solution and they are the ones we are criticising for this.

Regarding the 3GB test file. If you saw the video you can see it's a number of 36mpixel photos that are being stitched together for a large landscape print. Once the comp is complete then a flattened and cropped version will be about half the size. This is common use for landscape photography now and with modern cameras from Canon, Nikon and Sony taking photos from 36-50mpixel it is unavoidable. Within two years these cameras will be over 100mpixel. Nevertheless, Windows handled it very easily. Bridge handles it easily too. El Cap's Finder should be doing it too. Otherwise how will they even be ready for the file sizes down the road?

Or will they present the 'all new Finder' with the next major update with nice charts showing '3X FASTER!' like they do with all heir new products. It's a tired gimmick now.

I hope you understand my position. I've been in this trade for many years and it's hard to argue against experience. I know what creatives are typically moaning about, what issues they face in terms of software and hardware, and what they need from Apple, Adobe, MS, Intel, etc. Out of all the companies it appears Apple has been letting them down more than anyone. Just go to the Mac Pro forum and you'll see that they have been let down badly for a long time now.

 

[ryannel2003]

Yosemite has been THE buggiest release of OS X I've personally ever used (Mac user since OS X 10.3). Between my MacBook Air, Retina Pro and my new iMac it was just buggy.

I'm running El Capitan GM on my iMac and so far the only glitch I've notice is the menu bar sometimes doesn't appear until I hover the mouse over it. Other than it's been smooth and quick.

 

[dyn]

Yes, you're right about the plugin component but as long as Finder and Preview use it then we shouldn't separate the two. It's all part of Apple's solution and they are the ones we are criticising for this.

Then we should blame users too because they are using it as well... Finder has got nothing to do with this at all. It's either Preview or Quicklook that you use and both are completely different apps.

El Cap's image viewer component should be doing it too. Otherwise how will they even be ready for the file sizes down the road?

Fixed it for you to reflect the correct component to blame. As for the future, they'll probably get it resolved. Why? well, like you said, they'll just have to. Right now it is not that much of an issue or the issue is more complex or requires a more complex change within the OS. Usually Apple does this phased, meaning that they'll put a part of it in the OS, put another part of it in the following version and so on.

Or will they present the 'all new Finder' with the next major update with nice charts showing '3X FASTER!' like they do with all heir new products. It's a tired gimmick now.

To be honest, that's how American marketing seems to work and yes, it is very very annoying due to the over-exaggerating.

I hope you understand my position. I've been in this trade for many years and it's hard to argue against experience.

Same here. Large files have always been a pita one way or the other. I doubt we'll see it any different in the future. The only thing that'll change is the size of the files.

I know what creatives are typically moaning about, what issues they face in terms of software and hardware, and what they need from Apple, Adobe, MS, Intel, etc. Out of all the companies it appears Apple has been letting them down more than anyone.

Be a bit careful when comparing these companies since they have quite different audiences. Adobe has a much bigger interest in photographers since they have specific products. Intel and Apple don't as they have a much wider audience.

Just go to the Mac Pro forum and you'll see that they have been let down badly for a long time now.

The only people I see there that are complaining about things very vocally are either people who sell videocards and see their businesses threatened or hobbyists unable to modify a system that has never been that modifiable (USB3.0 still isn't as stable as in the official supported devices). The ones just using the machine for what it is and for their jobs are rather positive about the new Mac Pro. And then it also depends on what kind of professional you are. Not everyone has the seem needs and requirements plus you can't keep every single one of them happy. I've seen quite a lot of professionals switch to Mac (usually they used some kind of Linux flavour before). You're not switching to something if the company has let you down badly for a long time.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Then we should blame users too because they are using it as well... Finder has got nothing to do with this at all. It's either Preview or Quicklook that you use and both are completely different apps.

All the points that you made were addressed above already. The Finder can't even generate thumbnails for creatives working with a folder full of large files and you can't separate the integrated QuickLook component from the Finder. I blamed APPLE, not just a single component. I'm not debating this further until I post more tests after Sept 30.

Be a bit careful when comparing these companies since they have quite different audiences. Adobe has a much bigger interest in photographers since they have specific products. Intel and Apple don't as they have a much wider audience.

This was not a sensible thing to say and I'm not going to explain why. If you have time to write such a pointless reply to get into some retarded Internet fight, then you have time to think about what you say before you say it. Take a look at my sig and think about using your short time on earth in a more useful manner. Best wishes.

 

[darkrabbit]

Yosemite has been THE buggiest release of OS X I've personally ever used (Mac user since OS X 10.3). Between my MacBook Air, Retina Pro and my new iMac it was just buggy.

I'm running El Capitan GM on my iMac and so far the only glitch I've notice is the menu bar sometimes doesn't appear until I hover the mouse over it. Other than it's been smooth and quick.

This is good news. I've had similar experiences with Yosemite, it's like it was developed by 5 year olds.

I am going to give El Cap a real chance, but that being said I have a T440s running Win10 and it pretty much crushes my mid-2014 MBP in every respect in terms of performance despite having much less power. What Soy is saying in this thread is of no surprise to me, Windows is light years ahead of OSX in terms of file management and previews. Finder seems to be stuck in the 90's with a desperate need for an update.

-J

 

[Jennism]

So I tested out my photos in Finder. I have folders with large amounts of CR2 photos as well as Photoshop PSD's. I could not believe how fast it loaded the thumbnails. In Yosemite it is SUPER slow. Also I tested opening different photos from the folders to preview. First singles. Instant. Then I tried opening up 10. Instant. 20, Instant. WOW. Fast. Then I tried opening up a PSD file through preview. Maybe a touch of lag. Barely noticeable. But definitely a touch of a difference. Not worth caring about. I even opened up 20 PSD files at the same time in preview. No difference than opening just 1. These PSD files are all quite large too. Many layers. All opened up from within Finder. In Yosemite it is always slow. Especially when it comes to my CR2 and definitely PSD. Sure I don't generally open up a PSD in preview but it was just a test. And so far Lightroom is much faster than Yosemite. And I'm using the exact same huge catalog. Haven't tried Photoshop as I don't use it quite as much as Lightroom. I think I'll just wait until the final release. Yosemite wouldn't even handle these simple tasks of opening such large files all at the same time. It doesn't even like to open multiple JPGs with preview from finder. It's incredibly slow. They have really improved Finder in El Capitan and I am extremely pleased.

 

[dyn]

All the points that you made were addressed above already. The Finder can't even generate thumbnails for creatives working with a folder full of large files and you can't separate the integrated QuickLook component from the Finder. I blamed APPLE, not just a single component. I'm not debating this further until I post more tests after Sept 30.

Then do read your own signature (especially the last sentence) before you do any further testing since you are suffering from something called tunnel vision. It's the kind of vision that will never solve any issue at all but only result into more whining which we could do without on the forums here. If you want to waste your time then that is your decision and attacking anyone trying to get you back on track is just a stupid thing to do. So yes, that reply of yours was indeed not a sensible thing to say.

Btw, only the thumbnail issue is part of Finder, all the other mentioned problems (like the main problem discussed) are not. Filing things under the wrong category will only cause confusion to those who help.

Rather sad to see that some people still can't stop the whining. It's as if their lives depend on it.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

So I tested out my photos in Finder. I have folders with large amounts of CR2 photos as well as Photoshop PSD's. I could not believe how fast it loaded the thumbnails. In Yosemite it is SUPER slow. Also I tested opening different photos from the folders to preview. First singles. Instant. Then I tried opening up 10. Instant. 20, Instant. WOW. Fast. Then I tried opening up a PSD file through preview. Maybe a touch of lag. Barely noticeable. But definitely a touch of a difference. Not worth caring about. I even opened up 20 PSD files at the same time in preview. No difference than opening just 1. These PSD files are all quite large too. Many layers. All opened up from within Finder. In Yosemite it is always slow. Especially when it comes to my CR2 and definitely PSD. Sure I don't generally open up a PSD in preview but it was just a test. And so far Lightroom is much faster than Yosemite. And I'm using the exact same huge catalog. Haven't tried Photoshop as I don't use it quite as much as Lightroom. I think I'll just wait until the final release. Yosemite wouldn't even handle these simple tasks of opening such large files all at the same time. It doesn't even like to open multiple JPGs with preview from finder. It's incredibly slow. They have really improved Finder in El Capitan and I am extremely pleased.

It helps if you provide details of file sizes and perhaps a video otherwise this is not up to the level of evidence that has been asked for from other members and contradicts the issue that many people are seeing. On the 1st October I will be uploading some serious tests on YouTube for a range of file types, file numbers and file sizes. That's how you properly let people know about performance. Not just some words.

And to say '20 PSD' files open in an "instant" is rather amateurish. There's things like disk bandwidth and queuing that prevents such a thing no matter how fast an OS is.

 

[dyn]

Or you could simply get off his back and be friendly to others. He's just sharing his experiences. Do keep in mind that not everybody has a Phd in computer science. And yes, it is nicer if someone posts an extensive report about performance, just not a mandatory thing when posting experiences.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Or you could simply get off his back and be friendly to others. He's just sharing his experiences. Do keep in mind that not everybody has a Phd in computer science. And yes, it is nicer if someone posts an extensive report about performance, just not a mandatory thing when posting experiences.

I'll enjoy evidence based discussions and you carry on enjoying anecdote based posts. I believe in the scientific method and I'm not going to be shamed into abandoning reason by someone telling me that I'm not being "friendly"

 

[Jennism]

It helps if you provide details of file sizes and perhaps a video otherwise this is not up to the level of evidence that has been asked for from other members and contradicts the issue that many people are seeing. On the 1st October I will be uploading some serious tests on YouTube for a range of file types, file numbers and file sizes. That's how you properly let people know about performance. Not just some words.

And to say '20 PSD' files open in an "instant" is rather amateurish. There's things like disk bandwidth and queuing that prevents such a thing no matter how fast an OS is.

WOW, I was just providing personal feedback. Just because I don't have video evidence doesn't give you right to be so rude. I don't care, call me amateur. I'm no expert, I'm no beginner either. I'm not going to waste my day preparing a video with all sorts of evidence to satisfy your needed precise feedback. I was just using 'some words' to quickly describe my experience because I DID notice a huge difference between versions. So what if I used the word 'instant.' My eyes did not notice the small fraction of a second the computer took to process the information to bring up many files into my Preview. I barely noticed a smidgen of a delay for the PSD files.

Thank you Dyn. You seem to be pretty through and helpful by just using 'some words.'

And to point out, the person who started this thread started it on a positive note. I was trying to throw in my personal positive feedback. Seems like SoyCaptain has hijacked this thread and turned it into something negative. IMO it should be closed. A positive thread should be positive.

I've been on this site since I got my iMac a few years back and have learned a ton. I only recently started using my Facebook to login, so I'm not exactly a newbie. I've gone through 4 upgrades and this is my first beta.

So please stop attacking others as it won't get you anywhere except getting people pist off at you. I'm not though. It's just the internet. Grow up and be a bit more understanding that this is a public forum for all skill level.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

WOW, I was just providing personal feedback. Just because I don't have video evidence doesn't give you right to be so rude. I don't care, call me amateur. I'm no expert, I'm no beginner either. I'm not going to waste my day preparing a video with all sorts of evidence to satisfy your needed precise feedback. I was just using 'some words' to quickly describe my experience because I DID notice a huge difference between versions. So what if I used the word 'instant.' My eyes did not notice the small fraction of a second the computer took to process the information to bring up many files into my Preview. I barely noticed a smidgen of a delay for the PSD files.

Thank you Dyn. You seem to be pretty through and helpful by just using 'some words.'

And to point out, the person who started this thread started it on a positive note. I was trying to throw in my personal positive feedback. Seems like SoyCaptain has hijacked this thread and turned it into something negative. IMO it should be closed. A positive thread should be positive.

I've been on this site since I got my iMac a few years back and have learned a ton. I only recently started using my Facebook to login, so I'm not exactly a newbie. I've gone through 4 upgrades and this is my first beta.

So please stop attacking others as it won't get you anywhere except getting people pist off at you. I'm not though. It's just the internet. Grow up and be a bit more understanding that this is a public forum for all skill level.

When I gave my experience I was asked for evidence. I provided it without a fuss even though it was midnight. When I asked for evidence for your experience, instead of being given something that takes very little time to do...instead you attack me in the exact same manner a Scientologist would go after a critic. Such a tired tactic used mostly by religious maniacs to silence people.

Let's wait until 1st October. I'll test five different Macs across four different operating systems, video evidence and hard numbers will be uploaded for everyone to see. I will also provide the files for other people to perform the same tests. I'm hoping El Capitan will be properly optimised by then.

 

[Jennism]

When I gave my experience I was asked for evidence. I provided it without a fuss even though it was midnight. When I asked for evidence for your experience, instead of being given something that takes very little time to do...instead you attack me in the exact same manner a Scientologist would go after a critic. Such a tired tactic used mostly by religious maniacs to silence people.

Let's wait until 1st October. I'll test five different Macs across four different operating systems, video evidence and hard numbers will be uploaded for everyone to see. I will also provide the files for other people to perform the same tests. I'm hoping El Capitan will be properly optimised by then.

You didn't just ask for evidence. Your were rude and I am not the only one who saw that. I'm a mother of three, so my time is quite valuable. Good for you to provide such detailed evidence. It seems to be all you do, with over 900 posts since July. Hope you get paid well for it. And another thing, it's best not to ridicule someone with hypocrisy; as you used the term 'immediately' in reference to something opening in Windows in another post.

I'm done with this ridiculousness. Time to move on.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

You didn't just ask for evidence. Your were rude and I am not the only one who saw that. I'm a mother of three, so my time is quite valuable. Good for you to provide such detailed evidence. It seems to be all you do, with over 900 posts since July. Hope you get paid well for it. And another thing, it's best not to ridicule someone with hypocrisy; as you used the term 'immediately' in reference to something opening in Windows in another post.

I'm done with this ridiculousness. Time to move on.

Good evidence there and still the shaming tactics continues.

 

[patternjake]

I agree, credit is due to Apple here, it is the best version of OS X they have released

 

[jeanlain]

Doesn't Windows store thumbnails in a hidden file "thumbs.db"? It only has to do it once, and after that it just reads the small thumbnails. OS X doesn't save the file thumbnails and generates them on the fly.

Also, Finder thumbnails are generated by a Quick Look generator. Perhaps some third-party qlgenerator (from adobe?) is used for certain files, and is slower than the default qlgenerator.