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Custom T-Shirt....is it legal?

i am going to make a tshirt or two for myself only. if a friend likes it, too bad

i laff in their face!

but tell them how to make their own.

thanks for the feedback peeplz.


:eek:

as fer me paintin', i only charge the materials, the shipping and my time. for what its worth, customer testimonials say they got a good deal. there is no glory in paying your bills on "hard work". artistic value, none, technical value, some. do i care? nah, its just some money here n there. and i dont go crazy bored. :p
 
dogbone said:
I can assure you I'd never post to MR without doing some research first. And I have found no definitions of 'desist' that implied future action other than what is ordinarily implied by 'stop'. But maybe this concept of reference to future action is somehow conveyed in a touchy feely sort of way. Like the difference between 'grey' and 'gray' I always felt that 'gray' was a slightly lighter shade.
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Yes, it's exactly that squishy part they are trying to avoid! Even mundane agreements often end up defining such basic terms as "you" to avoid disputes over who you are :D
 
i dont know how legal your things is
but i used www.cafepress.com (good site btw) to make a shirt that had the quiznos logo (dont ask) on it
and within 3 hrs of making it i recived an email saying i was violating copyright law and if i continued to prodoce the shirt quiznos may take action
so i just made one then closed everything up. and i make sure to wear it everytime i go to quiznos.... just my little way of sticking it to the man
 
Go for it if you want to, just be aware of the risks, and maybe engage in some prudent risk avoidance.

Reading the link to the nurseries / disney thing, I noticed that the nurseries were for-profit businesses, hence they were stealing disney's images to help them generate greater profits.

An old artist friend of mine, David Haslam (who I'm no longer in contact with), painted an amazing image of the Last Supper, with the central image of Jesus replaced by a character that looked a bit like Noddy (but with some differences i.e. a tie instead of a neckscarf etc).

He got his ass sued into the ground by the very expensive lawyers engaged by the holders of the Noddy copyright.

Some examples of their nasty tactics - they applied to the court for a pre-emptive order to take into possession ALL his artwork - 'to check for copyright violations' - with NO guarantees as to how well it would be looked after or when it would be returned.

I think they also applied for some sort of binding order over his house 'in case he did not have the monies to pay any penalty that might be applied should the judge find him guilty'. (I'm not clear on the details of this one)

Also I think they applied for an order to request that all his future artwork for perpetuity had to be pre-approved by them before release or sale (!)

Basically all sorts of nasty bollocks. I remember reading a folder full of letters from them and their lawyers, and it was a years long, ongoing nightmare for David to deal with this *****. In the end, the case never went to court, but I think David had to accept the destruction of this particular artwork.

It got into the national UK papers a few times, who were appalled by the savagery of it all. I can't find any article that discusses him in particular (this was before the age of the internet), but here is one rather long article on copyright in art that mentions him in passing.

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,11710,1598008,00.html
 
Sdashiki said:
Again I am NOT painting and selling, I am painting on commission.

and we are not talking about live action right now, just cartoons, paint and canvas.


arent you all saying that its just as illegal for me to paint it as it is for someone to ask/want it painted in the first place?
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You're trying to split hairs that can't be split legally. It doesn't matter what you want the law to allow or think it should allow, it is what it is.

If you keep selling, there's a good chance you'll stay under the radar. There's also some chance you'll catch the wrong person's eye and get your patties spanked; not hard probably, but spanked nonetheless. It's a calculated risk that people take all the time.

Snark
 
I'm coming to this a little late but I will give you an example from my professional life.

I worked for an advertising specialty product manufacturer, a competitor to 3M's sticky pads in the ad specialty industry (ASI, PPAI for those who want to know). Another competitor had put together a nice catalog, and my client had a penchant for copying things he liked so he thought he would copy the catalog. I warned him that doing so risked a look-and-feel lawsuit, which is exactly what happened. He was sent a cease and desist letter and subsequently sued and lost over $75,000 in fees and penalties. The ironic thing is that we ended up going back to my original design for the "corrected" catalog.

Copyright law is there for a reason, and unfortunately Sdashiki what you are doing is one of the reasons. Yes, you can fly below the radar and continue to do what you do. And the chance that you would be caught, much less punished for it is unlikely. But you must realize that what you are doing is contrary to copyright law because even though your design may be original it is based on someone else's intellectual property.

As an example say you were to create a line of unique characters for paining on children's walls. Say they became popular in your region and you were receiving requests from others specifically for your characters and it became a major part of your painting. What would your reaction be if you found out that another painter was painting your characters for less money for other people? Would you think it was great that someone else was making use of your ideas for their own profit? Or would you want to stop them?

It is an old, old argument, the freedom of ideas versus the ability of the originator of the idea's ability to limit how it will be used. Just know that because you don't like the law doesn't mean you can break it without risking penalties.
 
dogbone said:
I've always been confused by this expression. I mean if you have 'ceased' then you can't 'desist' as well. Maybe it should be "cease or desist, take your pick".
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Cease: Stop doing what you're doing.

Desist: Once you've stopped don't even think of doing it again.
 
It's illegal to use even a celebrity's name most of the time, and it's definitely illegal to use the image of anything copyrighted (i.e. a cartoon).

I design a lot of t-shirts for a Mariah Carey fan organization, and the place that makes the shirts have refused to make:
-A shirt with "Mariah Carey" written on it (I can put Mariah, MC, etc, but not her full name)
-Anything with her photo
-Anything with quotes from lyrics, etc
-Anything that remotely looks like her logo
-Her signature (from an album cover)
-A drawn image/cartoon of M

Since then, I've shown them I have permission (I don't have a legal notice, but I showed them some emails that convinced them), and they'll let me use her name, signature now. Still, photos are tricky because they're usually copyrighted by the photographer, not the artist.
 
I'll chime in with a few more thoughts from my experience and perspective as a different sort of artist. I do video editing. One interesting side effect is that sometimes I will hear a piece of music and immediately conjure up imagery in my mind to go alongside it.

I also volunteer with a children's residential summer camp. If you've ever been (or had) a child at camp you know that these places are full of memories and often life-changing emotional impact.

So one day I hear an instrumental piece from a fairly well-known artist and immediately in my head I see a video telling the story of camp. Just for fun, that's exactly what I put together. I edited together a montage of clips from throughout a week of camp, starting from the moment you drive away from home and ending with a boy waving goodbye and a rear view of a car pulling away back toward the city. All of this was timed in synch with the song, just as I had pictured it in my mind.

The video was a hit with camp staff and kids I showed it to -- some were moved to tears. Copyright law, however, prohibits you from anything beyond showing it privately in people's homes. I couldn't make copies for friends, give it away as a promotional item, sell it, play it at camp fairs or info sessions, or even play it at camp itself!

Our camp registrar also worked for an entertainment lawyer, so we caught a lucky break -- we were able to negotiate with the publisher to get limited distribution rights. We were allowed to make up to 300 copies over the span of 3 years, and the licensing cost us about $75 for the one song. No broadcast rights, though, including website downloads.

Every time I hear that song I still picture in my mind all those camp images.
Which is, of course, exactly why they want you to pay -- emotional association is a powerful thing, and commercial firms will pay big money to exploit it. I'm sure they also want to screen and control the usage of their work so that they don't become associated with anything they don't approve of.
 
AFAIK most copyright laws apply to making any profit off of someone else's work, whether you sell the items (or in the Disney case, it brings you more profit despite the fact that you weren't selling counterfeit merchandise).

If you sell any works of art that someone else created - it's against the law.

Making your own shirt and wearing it or giving some away to friends - I don't think they're going to bust your balls about. That's more along the lines of 'being a fan' than 'trying to make a buck'.

I made a front and back DDR shirt of song banners (used from Stepmania bumper packs) just as a fan and I never once thought "I'm gonna be in big trouble for this". I've had a few people ask me where I got the shirt and I just tell them how I put it together and say "make your own if you want".

--just my two cents :)
 
Sdashiki said:
Sigh.


Someone comes up to me and says I want a Simpsons painting.

WTF am I supposed to do, say no?

I dont think so.


When i say I am not painting and SELLING i mean I am not creating a body of work to sell.

Someone pays me, THEN i paint for them. They arent "buying" anything but my commission. I have ZERO completed paintings for sale, ever.

If people are going to rip me apart for painting for others who want me to paint for them, I dont know what to say.
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I honestly believe what you are doing is perfectly legal.

Heck, go to any carnival, sit down to get a charicature drawn and tell them you want to be drawn next to Chuck Norris.

They will draw you next to Chuck Norris, sell it to you, and everything is perfectly legal.

I can draw pictures of Steve Jobs all day long and sell them on tshirts.

Soo my character resembles Steve? Lots of people look a like.

You can perfectly well create vector art of famous figures and legally sell them!

Happens all the time and is nothing new. A person's likeness is not a copyrighted thing. When you draw it, the drawn artwork IS copyrighted...TO YOU.

Sorry to the opposition, but that is just the way it is.

Check out the same thing happening here:http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=19781

Chuch Norris isn't receiving a penny for those shirts, and it is perfectly legal for people to make them and sell them.
 
I hope you're being facetious.. because if you're not, you're very much wrong.

Just because people do it doesn't mean it's legal.

People download music for free from kazaa all day long, but it's not legal.
Your 'it's legal because people do it' argument is slightly flawed.
 
yellow said:
I hope you're being facetious.. because if you're not, you're very much wrong.
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Sorry, but no, I am not.

Show me the law that states I cannot draw a picture that looks similar to you, and sell it.

Further, I've provided a perfect example of this in action.

Want more? Check out the majority of things on http://www.cafepress.com
 
Josh said:
I honestly believe what you are doing is perfectly legal.
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Are you basing that on an authoritative source or on the fact that the Chuck Norris shirt business and others like it haven't been shut down? The latter doesn't show that it's legal.
 
Doctor Q said:
Are you basing that on an authoritative source or on the fact that the Chuck Norris shirt business and others like it haven't been shut down? The latter doesn't show that it's legal.
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Are you suggesting that in the 3 pages of personal opinion on this topic, you or the side you support has provided legal evidence of the contrary?

I haven't seen it.
 
A real person's likeness is protected under many locales' privacy or civil rights laws. Public figures, and the use of private individuals' likenesses in reporting, are usually exempt. This is why, for example, photographers ask people for releases. The Chuck Norris example would generally be okay, but possibly not if he's portrayed as a particular character.

Fictional characters can be covered under copyright or trademark protection, or both. Many of the old Popeye strips and cartoons have fallen into the public domain copyright-wise in some countries, but the characters are still Hearst trademarks.
 
Josh said:
Are you suggesting that in the 3 pages of personal opinion on this topic, you or the side you support has provided legal evidence of the contrary?
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Nope. I'm asking because I don't know and I'd like to understand more about it. If you know a source of legal information about this issue, written in layperson's terms, I'd like to read it. If not, then we've got mixed opinions, and that's fine. In the meantime, my "educated guess" opinions are based on what I've read in the past.
 
Josh said:
Show me the law that states I cannot draw a picture that looks similar to you, and sell it.
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Publicity

The Right of Publicity prevents the unauthorized commercial use of an individual's name, likeness, or other recognizable aspects of one's persona. It gives an individual the exclusive right to license the use of their identity for commercial promotion.
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Josh said:
I honestly believe what you are doing is perfectly legal.

Heck, go to any carnival, sit down to get a charicature drawn and tell them you want to be drawn next to Chuck Norris.

They will draw you next to Chuck Norris, sell it to you, and everything is perfectly legal.

I can draw pictures of Steve Jobs all day long and sell them on tshirts.

Soo my character resembles Steve? Lots of people look a like.

You can perfectly well create vector art of famous figures and legally sell them!

Happens all the time and is nothing new. A person's likeness is not a copyrighted thing. When you draw it, the drawn artwork IS copyrighted...TO YOU.

Sorry to the opposition, but that is just the way it is.

Check out the same thing happening here:http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=19781

Chuch Norris isn't receiving a penny for those shirts, and it is perfectly legal for people to make them and sell them.
Click to expand...
"Happens all the time" is not the same thing as "perfectly legal." For example, many (most?) wedding videographers include pop music in their videos (typically songs requested by the clients) even though they didn't license the music. That's illegal, but they do it anyway (either because they don't know or don't care).

Right to Privacy/Right to Publicity is one thing that makes it illegal for someone to draw an image of Chuck Norris (or myself for that matter) and sell it w/o permission. Another example is if I'm going to interview someone for a documentary I'll have them sign a release form that gives the filmmakers permission to use that persons voice, image, etc., in the film.

Of course there are exemptions (Fair Use, satire, parody, etc.,), but if you are doing anything commercial then your options quickly become very limited.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but no their own facts. ;)


Lethal
 
in my personal "problem" i am talking cartoons only, I suck at still life.

and its almost all been exclusively ONE cartoon in particular that has only a cult following.

people ask for all types of cartoons, but the most work I do is one show and one show only.

i wish to expand into more, but if people dont ask for it, how can i?


anyway, im appreciating all this back and forth, though I sincerely doubt we will EVER come to any true conclusion.

google for questions like this and there is only half-cocked answers, even from legal sites dealing with copyright. there is nothing specific to "fan-art" which is I guess what my work falls under.

and again, I dont paint and then sell, I paint ONLY what a client asks and then pays for. i just cant see myself painting image after image and just letting them pile up while I look for a customer. commission is the ONLY way to paint! :p (when u arent in it for the glory)
 
It's legal to draw a cartoon of a politician, give him/her a word balloon saying "Vote for me - I'm not as slimy as the other guy!", and sell it to a newspaper, so it's not the case that all drawings of all people require their permission, even for something sold commercially. The Cornell quote doesn't cover that exception, so there's more to it than meets the eye.

What's the difference between the political cartoon and Chuck Norris T-shirts? Is it that politicians aren't also marketing their names and likenesses for profit (that's debatable)? Is it that some public figures are more public than others? Does the purpose of the cartoon matter? Could that newspaper cartoonist sell the same political cartoon on a T-shirt? What if it didn't have the word balloon? What if it was a political comment on Chuck Norris with a cartoon of him?

We clearly need to sign up more MacRumors members who are professional fan art lawyers. Put the word out!
 
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