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termina3

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2007
1,078
1
TX
Thing about cameras and questions should I buy this or that does not make sense at all. Camera itself has no difference.

Bull. Unadulterated bull. The camera is an integral part of the picture-taking process, and although no current technology can make up for poor composition or photography, it can greatly assist many. A bad camera and/or glass will prevent photos from being taken.

[…] I see amazing pictures taken with pinhole cameras (and they have no lens at all!) too. […]

That's nice. How many FPS does that pinhole camera have? How many amazing sports shots has it taken? Family (i.e. not "artsy") portraits?

Yes good glass make a difference. But you can take good pictures with cheap kit zoom too. What is the difference? If good glass will allow you to take pictures without a tripod in poor light, I think it is good enough reason to get one. And if you can afford one...:)

Agreed, although I kinda confused the wording initially. Fast glass will allow you to get shots you couldn't otherwise achieve.

All-in-all I find your post misleading and confusing. (I doubt you do so intentionally, but) You completely ignore some portions of the photography business.

The 35mm and now the dSLR is the photo-journalist's and sports photographer's workhorse.
Saying that the fps doesn't matter in a fast-paced football game is forgetful at best.
Insinuating that a pinhole camera can produce better life-like portraits than a dSLR is foolish.

Not to mention, a dSLR (or any modern camera) can be ready to capture in a very short time (even on full manual); you can't get the shot if you're still fiddling with setting up your camera.

I'm hoping that lenses and other equipment, when bought the right way, will transfer. In fact I'm banking on it. I'm not into throwing money down the drain but at the same time demand some resemblance of quality in my purchases. I went with the D300 and 200 mm lens deal with the coupon today off Amazon. Added a SB-800 to it as well. That'll do for a start. Maybe a few PocketWizards in a few months once I get comfortable with the options on the camera. Until then I'll try the Nikon CLS setup.

Good call. You'll have fun with the CLS, but eventually it will be annoying to have the sb-800 in front of the camera (i.e. not directly below).
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,134
4
Midwest USA
Thing about cameras and questions should I buy this or that does not make sense at all. Camera itself has no difference.

In this age of digital photography, the lens runs a clear second place in the IQ equation to the camera's sensor, AF, metering, and image processing electronics. That's going to be true until all the cameras are using full frame sensors with resolution and dynamic range that is equivalent to the human eye. Canon and Nikon (OK...Sony too, maybe) will be leapfrogging each other until they all get to that point, at which time the camera body will be pretty much irrelevant and lens quality will become the IQ stumbling block again -- just as it was in the old days when people used film.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
First, you're not paying a premium for the D300 - there are some fantastic deals for the D300 + 18-200 VR lens combo with an instant $300 rebate - I bought that combo for $2,049.00 with no tax and free shipping... I don't consider this a premium. You are NOT paying MSRP for either the D300 or the 18-200 with this combo. Meanwhile, you are paying pretty $1500 or more just for the 70-200 alone - add the D80 and you're already above the $2,049.00 for the D300 + 18-200 combo. So, the price argument ("premium") is in favor of the D300 + 18-200.

Sure you are. You're paying a premium for a body that (while it's an excellent body) isn't necessarily the "best" answer for a "I need to learn" sort of situation. I've yet to see someone who's new to digital photography shoot 50 shots in their first year that couldn't have been shot with pretty-much any dSLR- unless they're shooting corner-case stuff, the OP isn't shooting corner-case subjects.

Second, the D400 is hardly around the corner - the D300 has been out since Nov. 2007 and Nikon takes anywhere between 18-24 months between bodies in this series. Is it possible that it'll be sooner? Yes, but not by much - in other words, buying the D300 makes sense in the same way as the Buyer's Guide here recommends "BUY - product just updated". It's very

I never said a D400 was "around the corner," I was just pointing out the difference between waiting for a lens that "may be updated in the future" and a body that "will be updated in the future."

early in the D300 cycle. In fact, recommending the D80 is more questionable from that point of view - rumors of the D90 are "any day now",

Which is going to suddenly make all the D80s stop working? A new D80 is still going to have the same MTBF no matter if Nikon produces more of them or introduces a new model.

certainly before the D300. For that matter, the rumors of the successor to the 70-200 also indicate "sooner than later" (speculation is as soon as June), in particular with the view that the new D3 needs that gap filled and the 70-200 is not exactly stellar on the D3:

Anyone who's followed Nikon for any amount of time knows how much stock to put in the rumor mill. Nikon's updated vignetting control in the latest firmware for the D3, and if history is any indication they'll likely see that investment as the right answer until they're ready to release a nano-coated version on whatever their original schedule for that is.

In any case, advocating purchasing a lesser-quality lens- which is a ~10 year investment over a lesser-quality camera body which is a ~3 year investment isn't what I'd call a good thing.

Finally, your pricing comparison isn't even a close to apples-to-apples comparison. Consumer lenses haven't held up well over time- nowhere near as well as pro lenses- but even if you string a camera body out 5 years, you're looking at considerably more cash outlay on the more disposable asset. That makes the D300 choice more expensive over time, as it depreciates more rapidly *and* has a higher replacement cost over time coupled with a higher replacement frequency. Worse-yet, you're assuming that the 18-200 is going to be as good and as useful over that period as say a 70-200 and that it's going to last as long. I'd say that's not very likely.

The D300's a great camera, and if you're upgrading from another digital camera, you'll most likely get the benefits of doing so, but as a first digital body, you're not likely to hit its useful spots until you're half-way through its depreciation. It's like learning to drive a manual transmission on something with an expensive flywheel and clutch plates versus a $2400 car- sure you can do it- but by the time you get to where you can appreciate the good car you've spent more on transmission wear than you would have on the other car.
 

johnsy

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2006
443
0
It comes just to one point- what do you do with your camera? Do you use it for living or not? If you do then certain things matter to you. Sports photography needs faster camera body. If you work in a studio, then different things matter for you. All current SLR bodies are FPS midgets compared with casio EX-F1. Which is actually not even SLR.

I guess for sports it makes a difference what do you have - Canon 1DS Mark III or Casio EX-F1!

Casual shooters don't mind some lower quality.
And this is question to termina3:
Since when you became better photographer after purchasing top of the shelf stuff? You can see that in a movies very well- they use to shoot film and some stuff sucked. Now some of the suckers switched to digital and their stuff still suck (probably even more).

I am not that stupid that I don't see the difference between pinhole and lens. They each have a purpose. I have not seen anybody who shoots sports with pinhole.
 

johnsy

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2006
443
0
Nikon Rumors

Canon announces product and it is ready. They never run out of the stuff. Nikon announces stuff and it is not ready for a few months. After a few months if stuff is popular you can't buy it, because it is not enough of them. That is biggest problem with Nikon. Remember that d200 craze? Or 18-200 mm shortage?
 

Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,402
4,269
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
Nikon Rumors

Canon announces product and it is ready. They never run out of the stuff. Nikon announces stuff and it is not ready for a few months.

Canon pre-announces stuff just like Nikon does. This just happened, in fact. Their latest camera was released in November/December of 2007. They'd announced it months ahead of time. Is your memory really that short? :D
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
Nikon Rumors

Canon announces product and it is ready. They never run out of the stuff. Nikon announces stuff and it is not ready for a few months. After a few months if stuff is popular you can't buy it, because it is not enough of them. That is biggest problem with Nikon. Remember that d200 craze? Or 18-200 mm shortage?

And let's not forget that Nikon just isn't the huge production house that Canon is. Nikon has two main plants, one that makes the pro stuff, and another that makes everything else.

There is no such thing as a "if stuff is popular" with Nikon. Every time a body comes it becomes popular and Nikon is back ordered. The best thing is that most of what Nikon makes changes the game in some way, which is why they are always popular.
 

Driver

macrumors member
Original poster
May 1, 2008
31
0
Rollingwood, Tx
Good call. You'll have fun with the CLS, but eventually it will be annoying to have the sb-800 in front of the camera (i.e. not directly below).

From my understanding the D300 has the ability to trigger the SB800 even if it's off camera becasue it already has CLS internally as well as Commander capability. One just has to use the built-in flash.


The D300's a great camera, and if you're upgrading from another digital camera, you'll most likely get the benefits of doing so, but as a first digital body, you're not likely to hit its useful spots until you're half-way through its depreciation. It's like learning to drive a manual transmission on something with an expensive flywheel and clutch plates versus a $2400 car- sure you can do it- but by the time you get to where you can appreciate the good car you've spent more on transmission wear than you would have on the other car.

Maybe if its a F1 car with its $20K clutch and $100k transmission and one has the learning curve of a gnat. Sorry couldn't resist, the analogy needs a little work. :) I think if someone already has a good eye, is a quick study, it's fruitless to buy something you'll outgrow in less than a year or two. Doesn't mean they need a D3 but if they have the money then the expense (how much it stings the pocketbook) is all relative to income level.

On a side note: If you can't learn to drive a stick in a just 2 1-hour sessions then you likely have no business driving ANY car. From there on it's just practice to get smoother and more comfortable. Sad but truer than you'd think. :cool:
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
Maybe if its a F1 car with its $20K clutch and $100k transmission and one has the learning curve of a gnat. Sorry couldn't resist, the analogy needs a little work. :) I think if someone already has a good eye, is a quick study, it's fruitless to buy something you'll outgrow in less than a year or two. Doesn't mean they need a D3 but if they have the money then the expense (how much it stings the pocketbook) is all relative to income level.

On a side note: If you can't learn to drive a stick in a just 2 1-hour sessions then you likely have no business driving ANY car. From there on it's just practice to get smoother and more comfortable. Sad but truer than you'd think. :cool:

I would have to agree. I think far too many shooter concentrate on the technical side of the job instead of having that good balance between the technical and the "good eye".

It's one thing to know how to use the camera, it's another to know how to use it and still take terribly composed photos, which I am seeing a lot of D3 and D300 users doing.
 

Driver

macrumors member
Original poster
May 1, 2008
31
0
Rollingwood, Tx
It's one thing to know how to use the camera, it's another to know how to use it and still take terribly composed photos, which I am seeing a lot of D3 and D300 users doing.

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight, heck your even agreeing with me :D.. but as long as the person shooting is happy and they get what THEY want out of their pictures that's all that really matters. Doesn't matter if it's a D3, D300, Hasselblad, Phase One or a Kodak Disposable. Of course once you post them here then you've asked people to chip in on what THEY think and it'll run the gamut regardless of what the picture is. Just too much differences in what people like and dislike. Same as when you start doing it for pay. Some will like it, love it and you'll have those that don't. Grow a tuff skin before you go public. :cool:
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Maybe if its a F1 car with its $20K clutch and $100k transmission and one has the learning curve of a gnat. Sorry couldn't resist, the analogy needs a little work. :) I think if someone already has a good eye, is a quick study, it's fruitless to buy something you'll outgrow in less than a year or two.

Please show me even 50 pictures taken with the D300 that couldn't be taken with a D80 in the first year in the normal course of image making- that is not specifically going out to take a shot that exploits a D300 feature just to exploit it. Seriously, 50 images isn't that much for the difference in price, but I'd love to see them.

Frankly, I'd love to see you make the case for general-purpose photography that someone will "outgrow" a D40 in a year- *especially* if you're a good photographer where the camera body will matter even less than a "beginner's" camera's features do to a beginner's photos.

As far as two hours goes, it's the "smoother" part that's the issue- especially if you're not using synchronized gears and you don't live in a relatively flat location. I think I probably know two people who haven't stalled out a car or ground the gears after two hours of driving at 16. Funny how most driver's ed programs use automatics if it's just a matter of a couple of one hour lessons, isn't it?

Anyway, I'll be eagerly awaiting those "I'd have outgrown a D80 shots."

While you're at it, how about throwing in a few "I'd outgrow a D2x" shots too- since the D300 is "superior" to a D2x, and maybe I'll rent the same lens and see how much the same sort of shot would have sucked if you'd shot it with a D2x.

Note that outgrow means really outgrow, not just pick a scenario where you "need" an ISO or frame rate that's outside of the camera- that's not growth- we could show the same issues with a D3 vs a D300 in that case.

Hey, let's just set the bar at the D40, so we don't have to wait a year, ok? I can borrow one to see if you're right- so let's stick to situations which are relatively common. That should be fun- and I'll have to prove my case- which seems fair given your skepticism. Surely you'll agree that if you can outgrow a D80 in a year it shouldn't take you more than 90 days to outgrow a measly D40?

As far as expense, no- it's pretty commonly accepted that an expense is an expense regardless of income level. The impact of the expense, unless it exceeds income also isn't really at play in terms of pain- it's how that expense relates to income and all other expenses that delineates "pain."
It's pretty basic accounting, but I can draw it out if it's not obvious to you.

Warren Buffet can afford a $300M loss, that wouldn't make him smart for taking one. You can buy a Porsche for driving two blocks to the grocery store every Thursday too- that still doesn't make it a good purchase decision unless you're pretty shallow (even then it doesn't, but you'll feel like it is.)

For what it's worth, the SB800 has an SU-4 mode that will let it flash trigger with any strobe in existence (with any pre-flash disabled for obvious reasons,) so unless you're in a place with a bunch of other photographers, you can just set your flashes manually and they'll work together too, no idiot mode necessary. I tend to use Su4 mode in the studio if I need another small light or if I'm looking to blow out a background doing high key work and I don't feel like setting up more strobes.

CLS is mostly overrated, but if you're going to use Nikon flashes, depending on what you're looking for- you're better off with CLS over PWs, since you lose the only benefit for photographers who know how to light that CLS brings to the table over any other triggering system- FP High Speed Sync. On the D300 that'd get you up a third of a stop before you start to lose flash power to strobing and give the strobing option for higher speeds.
 

Driver

macrumors member
Original poster
May 1, 2008
31
0
Rollingwood, Tx
No just a little combative are you? :rolleyes:

And money really is relative, I know people that blow more money than a D300 or even a D3 costs on a set of wheels for their car when what they have is fine, when the wife has a perfectly fine rack but will blow 10K to have them inflated to astronomical proportions, will chunk 250K into a coach when it'd buy a first class hotel room for every vacation they'll take for the next 20 years, etc.. Nobody said it was smart, well maybe the big tits are :p , but again, it's all relative. If all you want to do is pick what I said apart at a monetary level versus what one can afford on a personal level then I'm sorry for you. Some people drive a Hyundai Sonata, some Toyota Mr2, and some Lamborghini's. Sure they all get from point a to b, but it's different to sit behind the wheel of each of them. Only 10 percent of people likely even have the capability to push the Toyota at 7/10ths much less the Lambo.

Keep holding your breath for those picts, I never said I was a pro and don't know why you took my post so personal. If I was I'd be spouting off over on some of the pro forums about medium format cameras, not a higher end consumer camera.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
No just a little combative are you? :rolleyes:

Not really, but since you're the one who intimated that you'd outgrow a D80 in a year or two, I'd just like to see it. There's a constant myth that a $1600 prosumer body takes significantly better pictures than a $900 consumer body, you're apparently perpetuating that myth, or I'm wrong about the fact that it's a myth- if pro had any bearing on it, then "outgrow" would be an even *worse* term not a better one.

So, either your statement that "it's fruitless to buy something you'll outgrow in less than a year or two." is pure BS or it's not- the backpedaling seems to indicate which.

Again, "afford" has to do with both income and expenses (and sometimes capital assets, but that's a needless digression in this case.) For instance, someone who makes $10,000 a month who's got lots of bills may not be able to "afford" as much as someone who makes $2500 a month who lives at home with their parents and has no real expenses. Disposable income defines what one can afford on a personal level and that only comes after you subtract expenses. So, in actual fact what one can afford hinges on the difference between income and expense, not income by itself.
 

johnsy

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2006
443
0
Outgrowing camera? That is interesting thing! Might be better expression would be my requirements expanded? My needs expanded? One day you was just snapshooter, another you become pro...

Go to photo.net. Check out pictures. You can see some people avoid even posting what camera and lens they used because that might distract you from picture. People who do post their info seems to take a lot of astonishing pictures with rebel, rebel xti, nikon d40 and other low "caliber" cameras. Sometimes they have even cheapest lenses too. A lot of them located in Europe, Asia, Africa , what somehow implies that they don't even have access to the best equipment, but they have a good eye.

And the Pros, what do they say? They don't give a crap about all this technical stuff, they care about rugged, tough, water resistant/proof SLR body with a lot of dedicated buttons, and sharpest, fastest lens they can get. Unless of course they advertise camera gear, then they show off with whatever pays money to use one or another thing. That is life... But how many of us here like that?

Seriously we need here a definition of "good picture".
 

Driver

macrumors member
Original poster
May 1, 2008
31
0
Rollingwood, Tx
Not really, but since you're the one who intimated that you'd outgrow a D80 in a year or two, I'd just like to see it.

YOU are the one that keeps throwing the D80 into the mix. You are the only one that's brought it up! I've never even mentioned it. In fact in my first post or two I specifically said I liked the HDMI output on the D300. You also assumed I was going to need a tripod etc, in a earlier post (I've had a Bogen 3221 for 15 years) and the continued post about money and how much one spends is just silly. Different people have different desires/needs and different levels of disposable income. Give it a rest.

All I said a few posts back (a general statement at best) is that, for some, a camera that will last them longer, grow with them, before needing to get a replacement is worth a little extra over a lower end camera. Whether or not I, myself, get better pictures or not over something else is irrelevant. It's just a opinion. Lighten up.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Your words...

it's fruitless to buy something you'll outgrow in less than a year or two

Do you still stand behind them? Can you explain them in the context of reality?

You also assumed I was going to need a tripod etc, in a earlier post (I've had a Bogen 3221 for 15 years) and the continued post about money and how much one spends is just silly. Different people have different desires/needs and different levels of disposable income. Give it a rest.

You originally said:

Stretching to get something like a d300 as is.

Which would seem to indicate that disposable income is an issue for you.

You also said:

But want to try some nightime skyline stuff of downtown Austin

For night skyline shots- if you want quality results, you *do* need a tripod. Now, nowhere do you say you have one, and if you're a Thom Hogan fan, http://www.bythom.com/support.htm says:

Thom's Maxim #2: You can spend US$1700 to buy a good tripod and head, or you can spend US$1000 and do the same thing. (Corollary: eventually you'll do one or the other.)

Now, maybe you think it's a flaw when someone says to someone who wants to "try some nightime (sic) skyline stuff" and "Stretching to get something like a d300 as is" is advised that they'll need a good tripod and that good tripods aren't cheap- me, I think it's useful stuff to know. If you can point to the part of this post where you said you already had a tripod, it'd start to look like a valid complaint.

The good news is that as long as you don't go too heavy or too long, the 3221 is a decent leg set if it's mated with a good head. I doubt Austin gets cold enough for the aluminum to be a real detriment.

All I said a few posts back (a general statement at best) is that, for some, a camera that will last them longer, grow with them, before needing to get a replacement is worth a little extra over a lower end camera. Whether or not I, myself, get better pictures or not over something else is irrelevant. It's just a opinion. Lighten up.

But again, you fail to quantify what this "grow" thing is, or what camera features enable this "growth." I'd like to know what features those are. I'd also like to know how buying it up front instead of once you've "grown" helps, because- since it's counter to the arguments I generally put forth, I'd like to understand the point, but so far you've been unable or unwilling to substantiate your opinion.

Heck, there may even be arguments that these "growth features" actually inhibit growth (like amazing AF meaning that photographers don't spend time learning about hyperfocal distance.) Until there's some quantification of this nebulous growth feature thing, how can we know if there's a factual basis for your opinion or if you're just full of hot air?

An old boss of mine once said in jest "One picture is worth a thousand denials."
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,134
4
Midwest USA
D300 is a great camera. You may not get better images compared to some other camera (or you may), but you certainly won't get worse ones. In the meantime, you'll have some very satisfying and capable gear. Maybe you'll outgrow it, maybe you won't....doesn't matter, I'll bet you replace it within a couple of years anyway. My D2H was working fine for me but I bought a D3 to replace it because I'm more gear-head than photographer and I have the disposable income to do so. I've found it to be a very satisfying purchase.

D2H, D3, several pro lenses and lighting, and I'm confident I've spent less on my photography hobby than I would have on golf over that same time period.

Seems like kind of a pointless argument you and Paul have going here. IMHO you shouldn't let someone else try to saddle you with their judgments about how you spend your money.
 

termina3

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2007
1,078
1
TX
From my understanding the D300 has the ability to trigger the SB800 even if it's off camera becasue it already has CLS internally as well as Commander capability. One just has to use the built-in flash.

CLS requires the sensor on the flash to "see" the camera's flash. If the speedlight is directly below the camera, and there is no opportunity for the on-camera flash to bounce back, the speedlight will not fire. The speedlight works out-of-sightline because the flash bounces around corners/objects, but if the original flash doesn't ever reach the speedlight the speedlight won't fire.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
but you certainly won't get worse ones.

I've seen countless examples of people "upgrading" to high-resolution cameras who did get "worse" pictures because of a lack of technique, bad settings (seemingly mostly AF settings,) or just the fact that the higher-end cameras produce more neutral results.

DPR has scores of posts where that has happened (most of the ones I've read were D70s->D200 upgraders who treated the D200 like a big P&S- but the D300 only has a little more exposure latitude, so if I read the same forums there I'm sure I'd sill see it.)
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,134
4
Midwest USA
I've seen countless examples of people "upgrading" to high-resolution cameras who did get "worse" pictures because of a lack of technique, bad settings (seemingly mostly AF settings,) or just the fact that the higher-end cameras produce more neutral results.

DPR has scores of posts where that has happened (most of the ones I've read were D70s->D200 upgraders who treated the D200 like a big P&S- but the D300 only has a little more exposure latitude, so if I read the same forums there I'm sure I'd sill see it.)

Valid point, if one is buying their expensive dSLR to use as a point-and-shoot. I am admittedly assuming that such a purchaser is willing to ascend the learning curve that a more complex camera provides along with its broader feature set.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Valid point, if one is buying their expensive dSLR to use as a point-and-shoot. I am admittedly assuming that such a purchaser is willing to ascend the learning curve that a more complex camera provides along with its broader feature set.

I really, really wish Nikon would brand the D40 straps with the model number like they do the DNNN straps. I'd love to put a D40-branded strap on my D2x just for the pretentious folks who want the body to speak for their images. Shoot enough in public areas and you'll be sorely disappointed at the number of folks who *could* get better pictures if they took the time.

Anyway, while I'm still of the opinion that the "grow into it crowd" doesn't have a logical leg to stand on, I'm going to drop the thread- it's pretty obvious that the OP doesn't want rational discourse on differing opinions, or to discuss things based upon logic and accuracy- so I'll just wish him well with his new camera.
 

johnsy

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2006
443
0
My friend has Sony A100 and kit lens. Just one. He gets pictures ranging from just OK to bad, he could get the same stuff with point and shoot minus dimensions and weight. But now he wants to buy Sony 700 or 350. He thinks more megapixels will help him to make better pictures automatically. Lens? What lens? Why, it is not necessary. Flash? It is to expensive for what it delivers. Yah...
How marketing confuses people. Besides look at the Sony- they put big orange alpha sign on front and lens cap, seems like they are desperate to push their stuff.
 

telf22

macrumors regular
Sep 2, 2007
180
0
I really, really wish Nikon would brand the D40 straps with the model number like they do the DNNN straps. I'd love to put a D40-branded strap on my D2x just for the pretentious folks who want the body to speak for their images. Shoot enough in public areas and you'll be sorely disappointed at the number of folks who *could* get better pictures if they took the time.

Anyway, while I'm still of the opinion that the "grow into it crowd" doesn't have a logical leg to stand on, I'm going to drop the thread- it's pretty obvious that the OP doesn't want rational discourse on differing opinions, or to discuss things based upon logic and accuracy- so I'll just wish him well with his new camera.
He can buy whatever he wants.
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
Please show me even 50 pictures taken with the D300 that couldn't be taken with a D80 in the first year in the normal course of image making- that is not specifically going out to take a shot that exploits a D300 feature just to exploit it. Seriously, 50 images isn't that much for the difference in price, but I'd love to see them.

Well, this is a silly way to restrict the argument. Many of us buy a camera SPECIFICALLY because it has a given feature... so saying "well, if you are not allowed to use that feature" is just plain shtupid.

Example from my own situation. My wife wanted a camera to take photos of social gatherings and dinners we hold quite often at home. The problem is that the light is quite low in these situations, and flash is an absolute no-no - people are uncomfortable with flash (we've tried). Having tried many things on the lens side (fastest primes available, IS/VR etc.), there is just no other way of getting decent results other than through high ISO. One option would be the D3 which I borrowed from my friend, but unfortunately, it's too big/heavy for my wife - too bad, as it has an unbeatable IQ at high ISO. That left the D300 - which has worked out really well so far. And there is just no comparison with the D80 - the D300 is VASTLY superior for her needs.

And it's stupid to argue that her needs are somehow not legitimate because they exploit the high ISO capabilities of the D300 - that's all she ever uses this camera for, and she uses it every weekend, enthusiastically.

I find it condescending to tell someone "you don't need a better camera than the D80, and you're a snob if you buy the D300" - that's just plainly not true - and even if you merely exploit the high FPS of the D300 for shooting your kid's soccer games, well, that's still a legitimate reason to buy the D300 rather than the D80. Cameras have features for a reason - people NEED them.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
He can buy whatever he wants.


I never intimated he couldn't buy what he wants, only on the lack of logic in his statements regarding the purchase.

Well, this is a silly way to restrict the argument. Many of us buy a camera SPECIFICALLY because it has a given feature... so saying "well, if you are not allowed to use that feature" is just plain shtupid.

Ah! But that's not the argument that was made- the argument was that the camera was fully-featured to grow into it not because it had a specific feature (outside of a non-photographic one.)

Example from my own situation. My wife wanted a camera to take photos of social gatherings and dinners we hold quite often at home. The problem is that the light is quite low in these situations, and flash is an absolute no-no - people are uncomfortable with flash (we've tried). Having tried many
things on the lens side (fastest primes available, IS/VR etc.), there is just no other way of getting decent results other than through high ISO. One option would be the D3 which I borrowed from my friend, but unfortunately, it's too big/heavy for my wife - too bad, as it has an unbeatable IQ at high ISO. That left the D300 - which has worked out really well so far. And there is just no comparison with the D80 - the D300 is VASTLY superior for her needs.

And it's stupid to argue that her needs are somehow not legitimate because they exploit the high ISO capabilities of the D300 - that's all she ever uses this camera for, and she uses it every weekend, enthusiastically.

I get 1/60th of a second in a 600 square foot room lit by a single 10w florescent bulb at f/2.8 and ISO 3200 with the curtains drawn. Assuming a non-linear output, I'd guess that a 60w bulb would get me to at least 1/60th at 800. While a $4700 D3 is one way to solve that problem it seems to me that a new lightbulb is an easier solution. Heck, add two lamps and you can probably use a P&S. ;)

(Just in case anyone reading this is actually interested in using their current camera, if you use 100% bounce flash off the ceiling in a house people tend to not really be bothered by the flash since it doesn't go directly into their eyes.)

Just in case you're still reading this- I never said an obvious need wasn't legitimate, I questioned the "grow into it" logic, like buying a camera is somehow the same sort of thing as buying pants for a 7-year old boy.

I find it condescending to tell someone "you don't need a better camera than the D80, and you're a snob if you buy the D300" - that's just plainly not true - and even if you merely exploit the high FPS of the D300 for shooting your kid's soccer games, well, that's still a legitimate reason to buy the D300 rather than the D80. Cameras have features for a reason - people NEED them.

How ever did we get good youth soccer photos before 7fps cameras? :eek:

If you're actually seriously arguing that someone's first dSLR needs to be 7fps to shoot youth soccer- especially if that's pushing their budget and means they'll end up with a slower lens, then I'll say your logic probably isn't the best either.

I've advised people on this forum to get D300s- but this whole "grow into it" logic on something with about a three year life-span isn't based on solid logic based solely upon the feature differences between dSLR bodies.

Hey, if you need (or want) a feature, buy it- but don't try to justify it as logical based on some ephemeral criteria, justify it as needing or wanting that particular feature. "I'm going to throw the camera in the trunk and I'm happier with the magnesium body" is a logical argument. "I'm going to grow into the difference between these two cameras, but I don't know how and can't even see how that'd happen" isn't.

As I said before, there's an easy counter-argument that a more limiting camera produces a less limited photographer- with obvious boundaries that's probably more true than not. Learning hyperfocal distances to do landscapes on a 5x7 view camera applies well to shooting motorsports with a slow AF system for example.
 
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