D50 body or D80? and glass advice...

[Ruahrc]

Strictly speaking, the camera sensor in the D80 and D200 are identical. The images produced by both are essentially in all respects identical. So the friend who told you the D80 had a bad sensor obviously has a different opinion than your other pro friend who uses the D200 every day . In fact the D80, being a newer camera than the D200, might arguably have better image quality due to slightly tweaked/improved noise reduction algorithms.

Anyway, you say that you are finding the D50 "limiting" as you are improving, can you articulate that in more specific terms? And where the (specific) features of the D80/D200 or even the D90/300 for that matter are addressing or improving those limitations? For example, if you're shooting mainly portraits and maternity photos (I'm assuming indoors or in pretty controlled circumstances here), what specific benefit is the enhanced weather sealing and more robust build quality of the higher cameras doing for you? What usefulness will you derive from the ability to bracket more than 3 frames using a range wider than -2/+2 stops? Is 5fps on the D200 going to be better than the 2.5 you get on the D50 in your portrait shooting? Will the D80/D200's ability to act as a Nikon CLS commander be of benefit to you, or would you be just as effectively served by buying a SB900 hotshoe flash to act as a commander module instead? If you can clearly answer these questions then perhaps an intermediate move up to a D200 might be smart, otherwise I still say it's better to save up your money and put it towards the purchase of a D90/300 (or even beyond, say D95/D400?). I don't mean for this to sound derogatory, but I guess IMO if you cannot outline specific benefits in better hardware fixing specific needs in your shooting requirements, you may have to re-evaulate your opinion that the D50 is limiting to your growth.

In addition, this applies doubly so if you are intending this to be a business investment. pdxflint got it right in the 2nd reply where any purchase made for a business should be viewed in the light of "will it make me more money, more than it cost?" If you're shooting for hobby purposes by all means don't exclude the "fun factor", but as I'm not clear whether you are shooting for profit or for fun (or partly both), it is something you should consider.

Regarding the off-camera flash: if you have not already, go to http://www.strobist.com and look at, read through, even practice with their articles and tutorials. It pretty much explains everything to someone clueless regarding off-camera flash, and does so in a pretty straightforward and effective manner. If you're serious about portraiture as a photography business, learning to control lighting properly is going to be 1000x more valuable than any body or lens you can buy.

Ruahrc

 

[TheStrudel]

I know you really don't want to shell out for newer generation cameras, but the chief advantage (and I used to scoff at this, but I've come around, seeing the stuff that's been posted) of the current generation of Nikons is much more impressive mid-high ISO performance.

I've been using my D80 for a while now, and I can definitely agree that its image quality is essentially equivalent to the D200's. D200 is slightly heavier and has a few more options, but they rarely matter and it comes with a much more confusing menu and control system. My biggest complaint about my D80 at this point, (and this complaint applies to all cameras prior to the current generation of released ones) is that images just aren't that great once you get above ISO 800. I prefer to shoot at 100, but some shots just don't allow you to do better sometimes.

I agree that the video on the D90 is pointless, but you never have to touch it. If there's an advantage that camera offers, it's vastly improved high ISO performance, if that matters to you. But all the advice being given to you about flashes and lighting is quite valid too. That said, using my D80's wireless commander mode with the SB-800 can allow you to take some very nice pictures.

All of that being said, I would also suggest further investments in glass or flashes/lighting equipment before a new camera body: maximize what you can do with the one you have, and upgrade only when you're certain you couldn't be getting better with it.

Much as I would love to have a D700, I don't think my current level of skill justifies the investment...yet. I'll want the low-end Nikon full-frame eventually. But I owe it to myself to raise my skill level considerably first. And by then, I'll be getting more camera for the money.

 

[macbrooke]

Sorry I was away for a few days, just wanted to update, I got a fabulous deal on a D200 with grip and despite what has been posted here it's blown me away thus far.

I'm extremely happy I made this move. The camera may be the same as the D80 from what a few of you posted but it does not seem to have a few of the known issues the D80 did. I was concerned it would be a bit much to transition to, but I have found it very intuitive and I love the solid build.

I'm not that worried about the ISO issue, indoors I am going to be using lighting and if my test photos from today outdoors in the park at sunset are any indication I don't see anything but "crisp", the images are richer and more saturated than the D50 right off the camera and I love this because I really don't like photoshop that much, I use it as needed .. but I am not going to spend an hour tweaking something when I can get it to come off the camera looking wonderful.

I've had the D50 for almost 3 years, so clearly I am not so concerned about having the newest, I just wanted access to some features I did not have and perhaps better image quality.. I think this struck a balance.

I am curious however, if the D200 and the D80 are the same camera, how come I read many many negative reviews about the D80 and most of what I found regarding the D200 is stellar? I've even spoke to people I know who own each in real life!

Strudel: for now I have the glass I am happy using, my one desire is a fisheye so perhaps in the near future
As well buying a very gently used body allowed me to save lots of cash and invest in more lighting goodies

 

[Abraxsis]

I am curious however, if the D200 and the D80 are the same camera, how come I read many many negative reviews about the D80 and most of what I found regarding the D200 is stellar? I've even spoke to people I know who own each in real life!

Well, camera bodies are like opinions which are like buttholes ... everybody has one. Except in the case of camera bodies there are few people who are totally indifferent about such things. I have, and still use, a D80 and other than the purple corners on long exposures I haven't found a situation where it just isn't going to work. Some people are sticklers on super fast auto focus, a wide bracketing option for HDR, mirror lock up, DOF preview, body size, weight (youd be surprised how important this is when youve got a large piece of pro glass strapped on the front), and even button layout. But cameras, just like lenses, rarely work to perfection in all situations. I've heard of high end Pros using a D40 on some projects because it has an electronic shutter which allows it to sync at any speed. Makes doing things like overpowering the sun quick and easy.

Overall, the naysayers are probably the people who can easily afford the next step up, lol. I still hold firm to buying the body that fits well in your hand, does what you need it to on a daily basis, and that you'll actually use. But, that is just my opinion.

 

[macbrooke]

Hey Abraxis

What struck me immediately is how simple it is to control many settings on this camera without digging through menu's and such, I really like that. I'll have to report back in a few weeks once I have used it more and have a better grasp for the feel of the camera.

I am still keeping my little D50 because I can see situations where it will work wonderfully

 

[Ruahrc]

I am curious however, if the D200 and the D80 are the same camera, how come I read many many negative reviews about the D80 and most of what I found regarding the D200 is stellar? I've even spoke to people I know who own each in real life!

I was wondering about this myself. Here's a theory I had.

The only real thing to fault in the D80 is the wonky matrix meter. It tends to overexpose in the sunlight or bright scenes creating many blown skies if you're not careful. It is pretty commonly known and IMO the only real "fault" of the camera. I think that if the matrix metering was working fine on the D80, it would probably be as well regarded as the D90 (which does not share the same metering issues). However, the metering issue, combined with the fact that it is targeted towards more inexperienced users, probably compounds the situation so you get people who are not as skilled using the D80 and getting poor results on matrix metering and saying it's a crappy camera.

The D200, OTOH, which is essentially the same camera save some pro usability features, and does not have the matrix metering problems the D80 has. Combine its "better" metering with the fact that only people who are more serious (and by extension, more capable) about photography were buying/using it, and there is little to complain about. The D200 shows how capable the sensor is, while the D80 gets panned for its metering. But for those who know how to use it properly (rather I should say those who have learned to control the metering), are getting great results just like they would on the D200.

Ruahrc

 

[ManhattanPrjct]

I think that if the matrix metering was working fine on the D80, it would probably be as well regarded as the D90 (which does not share the same metering issues). However, the metering issue, combined with the fact that it is targeted towards more inexperienced users, probably compounds the situation so you get people who are not as skilled using the D80 and getting poor results on matrix metering and saying it's a crappy camera.

I had to choose last year between a used D80, a less used D200, and a refurbished D90 (which then cost about what it costs to buy one new now). After reading this thread (and worrying about the metering on the D80) and thinking back on my experience in the last year, I really lucked out upgrading to the D90.

 

[macbrooke]

Strictly speaking, the camera sensor in the D80 and D200 are identical. The images produced by both are essentially in all respects identical. So the friend who told you the D80 had a bad sensor obviously has a different opinion than your other pro friend who uses the D200 every day . In fact the D80, being a newer camera than the D200, might arguably have better image quality due to slightly tweaked/improved noise reduction algorithms.

Anyway, you say that you are finding the D50 "limiting" as you are improving, can you articulate that in more specific terms? And where the (specific) features of the D80/D200 or even the D90/300 for that matter are addressing or improving those limitations? For example, if you're shooting mainly portraits and maternity photos (I'm assuming indoors or in pretty controlled circumstances here), what specific benefit is the enhanced weather sealing and more robust build quality of the higher cameras doing for you? What usefulness will you derive from the ability to bracket more than 3 frames using a range wider than -2/+2 stops? Is 5fps on the D200 going to be better than the 2.5 you get on the D50 in your portrait shooting? Will the D80/D200's ability to act as a Nikon CLS commander be of benefit to you, or would you be just as effectively served by buying a SB900 hotshoe flash to act as a commander module instead? If you can clearly answer these questions then perhaps an intermediate move up to a D200 might be smart, otherwise I still say it's better to save up your money and put it towards the purchase of a D90/300 (or even beyond, say D95/D400?). I don't mean for this to sound derogatory, but I guess IMO if you cannot outline specific benefits in better hardware fixing specific needs in your shooting requirements, you may have to re-evaulate your opinion that the D50 is limiting to your growth.

In addition, this applies doubly so if you are intending this to be a business investment. pdxflint got it right in the 2nd reply where any purchase made for a business should be viewed in the light of "will it make me more money, more than it cost?" If you're shooting for hobby purposes by all means don't exclude the "fun factor", but as I'm not clear whether you are shooting for profit or for fun (or partly both), it is something you should consider.

Regarding the off-camera flash: if you have not already, go to http://www.strobist.com and look at, read through, even practice with their articles and tutorials. It pretty much explains everything to someone clueless regarding off-camera flash, and does so in a pretty straightforward and effective manner. If you're serious about portraiture as a photography business, learning to control lighting properly is going to be 1000x more valuable than any body or lens you can buy.

Ruahrc

I was wondering about this myself. Here's a theory I had.

The only real thing to fault in the D80 is the wonky matrix meter. It tends to overexpose in the sunlight or bright scenes creating many blown skies if you're not careful. It is pretty commonly known and IMO the only real "fault" of the camera. I think that if the matrix metering was working fine on the D80, it would probably be as well regarded as the D90 (which does not share the same metering issues). However, the metering issue, combined with the fact that it is targeted towards more inexperienced users, probably compounds the situation so you get people who are not as skilled using the D80 and getting poor results on matrix metering and saying it's a crappy camera.

The D200, OTOH, which is essentially the same camera save some pro usability features, and does not have the matrix metering problems the D80 has. Combine its "better" metering with the fact that only people who are more serious (and by extension, more capable) about photography were buying/using it, and there is little to complain about. The D200 shows how capable the sensor is, while the D80 gets panned for its metering. But for those who know how to use it properly (rather I should say those who have learned to control the metering), are getting great results just like they would on the D200.

Ruahrc

Hi just want to touch on a few things you said, first of all I have looked all over the internet and I see many people have posted image comparisons it seems the D80 underexposes a bit, I had the opposite problem with my D50. The noise issue is a red herring as I hardly ever shoot above 800 iso.
Even when I do, it was acceptable on my D50, I'll have to see what happens with the D200. In terms of needs, I have 4 kids.. I am outdoors all the time, I also appreciate the more robust build of this camera, I think it will handle all the schlepping I do, again not to repeat myself but I love the controls and ease of access. Summer is fast approaching and we have a whole new soccer season ahead of us! I am looking forward to the increase in speed.

In the end it's partial fun/hobby ( I do have kids!) but I also need a camera that can handle business needs as well. To answer your question about the Nikon CLS commander yes I plan to delve into this shortly.

I am extremely aware that lighting is paramount, which is why I wanted a body on a budget that allows me to go in any direction I need whilst maintaining a budget.. there is a sensibility here, there is only so much camera one really needs to have to produce great results, everything past that would be lovely and fun but for me? I don't think having a D300 or D300s yet is a necessity.

Yes the matrix meter is something I read about as well, you may well have a point about the user being the issue with some of the D80 metering flaws, but on the same hand I know people very well versed in using digital who still have issues. Regardless even if the only reason to choose a D200 over the D80 was metering alone.. I think at the price point both cameras are currently on the used market you would be silly to not buy the D200 which is why I did.

I hope that answers some of your questions directed at me Ruahrc.

 

[luminosity]

Nikon did not put the 1005 pixel CCD sensor from the D70s into the D80. The D70(s) is the only non-Dxxx/Dx body to have color matrix metering.

 

[Abraxsis]

Nikon did not put the 1005 pixel CCD sensor from the D70s into the D80. The D70(s) is the only non-Dxxx/Dx body to have color matrix metering.

Just thought I would counter that all Nikon DSLRs have color matrix metering, just not the larger 1005 pixel RGB sensor of the D70(s), Dxxx and Dx(s) series bodies. Instead Dxx series use 3D Color Matrix Metering II with a smaller 420 pixel RGB sensor. Even the later model Film SLRs had color matrix metering.

 

[Ruahrc]

Regardless even if the only reason to choose a D200 over the D80 was metering alone.. I think at the price point both cameras are currently on the used market you would be silly to not buy the D200 which is why I did.

There's no need to justify your purchase to me , but it looks like you got a good deal that you are really happy with and that's great. You're right about the fact that since the D80 and D200 are older now, the price for each is pretty close.

Ruahrc

 

[NEiMac]

Hi just want to touch on a few things you said, first of all I have looked all over the internet and I see many people have posted image comparisons it seems the D80 underexposes a bit, I had the opposite problem with my D50. The noise issue is a red herring as I hardly ever shoot above 800 iso.
Even when I do, it was acceptable on my D50, I'll have to see what happens with the D200. In terms of needs, I have 4 kids.. I am outdoors all the time, I also appreciate the more robust build of this camera, I think it will handle all the schlepping I do, again not to repeat myself but I love the controls and ease of access. Summer is fast approaching and we have a whole new soccer season ahead of us! I am looking forward to the increase in speed.

In the end it's partial fun/hobby ( I do have kids!) but I also need a camera that can handle business needs as well. To answer your question about the Nikon CLS commander yes I plan to delve into this shortly.

I am extremely aware that lighting is paramount, which is why I wanted a body on a budget that allows me to go in any direction I need whilst maintaining a budget.. there is a sensibility here, there is only so much camera one really needs to have to produce great results, everything past that would be lovely and fun but for me? I don't think having a D300 or D300s yet is a necessity.

Yes the matrix meter is something I read about as well, you may well have a point about the user being the issue with some of the D80 metering flaws, but on the same hand I know people very well versed in using digital who still have issues. Regardless even if the only reason to choose a D200 over the D80 was metering alone.. I think at the price point both cameras are currently on the used market you would be silly to not buy the D200 which is why I did.

I hope that answers some of your questions directed at me Ruahrc.

I personally think you made a great choice, I love mine. The only weakness I have ever found with my D200 is the High ISO which doesn't sound like you will need much anyways and neither do I really.