Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Ray2

macrumors 65816
Jul 8, 2014
1,170
489
No problem.

Industry standards they may be BUT.

In the USA the best example I can think of is Industry standard cars being bought and immediately being ripped apart to better suit the owner by specialist garages all over the country.

They may be all powerful monolithic software monsters BUT they just don't fit my purpose. The problem in this scenario is that I cannot just take them to a software garage and get them 'fixed up'.

I would love to buy my fast, stripped down DAM but so far all thats available (as far as I can see) are Caddilacs or Caddilac wannabes.

Regards

Sharkey

sorry if the spellings off;) wouldn't know an American car if it ran over me:)

Sorry, but the DAM you're looking for exists. You are not that unique. You just have to go out and look for it. Rather than documenting your excuses here.

You stated your requirements in your first post. Any number of photo browsers and/or catalog based apps will satisfy the requirements your articulated. You've been provided a bevy of options but I have yet to hear anything from you that suggests you've looked at anything.
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
I love car analogies. You hit it on the head, although it's another argument for USING Lr. It is something, like a Jeep here i the US, that can be customized with tons of parts and addons. Look at the vast number of plugins, scripts, publish services, etc that work with it. You can sure buy a software version of say niche vehicle (I had a Jeep wannabe myself) but then you spend too much time trying to repair it with parts that are never available and help that's never around. I got tired of that, and although I didn't like the Jeep, it was much easier to just make it work in the end. Not to mention they are gonna be around, unlike the discontinued 4x4 I had. Which probably wouldn't even make it past smog control as those requirements, like system software, get updated in the future.

It's not like you have to use all the features, just as you don't with the browser you're working on, or Word, or whatever. I still haven't heard what the detailed requirements are, but they must be rather esoteric for a current solution to not work.

"Touché"

I will think on those wise words.

Regards

Sharkey
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
Sorry, but the DAM you're looking for exists. You are not that unique. You just have to go out and look for it. Rather than documenting your excuses here.

You stated your requirements in your first post. Any number of photo browsers and/or catalog based apps will satisfy the requirements your articulated. You've been provided a bevy of options but I have yet to hear anything from you that suggests you've looked at anything.

Hells teeth man I know I am not unique. After 30 years of image capturing on film and digital my needs are not 'esoteric' or complex, or even ignorant.

But to be as helpful as I can, I suppose my ideal would look and work the follows.

Raw reader - as in Adobe style with image quality of C1.

*Referenced filing system as in Aperture.
Manipulating by Adobe (happy at CS5 level).
*Storage and export simple and fast.
*Photomechanic pretty good.

Trying other software I am doing all the time in hope of solving my own predicament. But I doubt I will ever write here on anywhere my thoughts on each. I don't think my opinion is worth it other than to me. Your views on any named piece of software is what I am seeking; so that eventually my views will sometime combine with your/others and a decision will end, finally. It is tough doing it this way.

Regards

Sharkey
 

BobertKennedy

macrumors member
May 3, 2014
50
77
So is there no DAM out there that is simple, referenced and yet sufficiently complex to handle all file types.
Is writing a DAM not financially attractive enough, am I just unaware of such a product.

Basically I suppose I would like such a product to exist - So thoughts please??

There's no need to reinvent the wheel as there are plenty of choices out there. I've been using Lightroom for several years without problems - it's stable, flexible and extensible. I also use PhotoMechanic (for tagging) and Nikon's own software for critical NEF conversions.
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
Nikon's own software for critical NEF conversions.[/QUOTE said:
Interested in this.

What are your criteria for critical conversion? Are they image quality driven or reliability for work targets??

How do you find the interfaces between these products?

Regards

Sharkey
 

Ray2

macrumors 65816
Jul 8, 2014
1,170
489
Adobe does an ok job with D800 files. I recently helped a friend processing files from my old D800 (when I used Aperture). I first ran all of them through Lightroom then tried a few difficult ones in C1. I ended up taking all the portraits (less than a dozen) through C1 as it was less work and a couple that needed a lot of recovery in shadow areas where C1 does a better job (no need to mess with black point). From memory, I believe NX and C1 deliver comparable initial renders.
 

Ray2

macrumors 65816
Jul 8, 2014
1,170
489
Hells teeth man I know I am not unique. After 30 years of image capturing on film and digital my needs are not 'esoteric' or complex, or even ignorant.

But to be as helpful as I can, I suppose my ideal would look and work the follows.

Raw reader - as in Adobe style with image quality of C1.

*Referenced filing system as in Aperture.
Manipulating by Adobe (happy at CS5 level).
*Storage and export simple and fast.
*Photomechanic pretty good.

Trying other software I am doing all the time in hope of solving my own predicament. But I doubt I will ever write here on anywhere my thoughts on each. I don't think my opinion is worth it other than to me. Your views on any named piece of software is what I am seeking; so that eventually my views will sometime combine with your/others and a decision will end, finally. It is tough doing it this way.

Regards

Sharkey

DAM
Photo Mechanic: you're a high volume shooter. If you cull big time, its fast. Can't handle PDF's. DAM beyond the browser is nothing special and Lightroom/Aperture are much better. If you edit in it its dreadfully slow and you will fill your drive with sidecars (perhaps can be turned off). With 35,000 images it was a bit unstable on my 3.0 i7 rMBP + 16gb. Don't know if it was the app or my limited resources.

Graphic Converter: slower than PM but handles more file types and uses Apple Raw for conversions. Not in vogue but I'd take it over PM. Now appears stable as I use it when I want to just browse my 35,000 image library. May not be able to send a raw file to an external develop app. If you're satisfied with Apple renders, just export a PSD to PS and do ALL your editing there.

Bridge: not particularly stable once you load 25,000+ images in it and a resource hog, though you have a lot of compute power. Not sure about file types. Lightroom cannot handle PDF's or some video formats, may be the same with Bridge. Summons ACR for raw edits -- same as Lightroom but not as pretty. Integrates/works well with ACR and PS. Too many crashes for me. Always came back fine.

C1: v8 is more stable but it's no Lightroom. Metadata handling is inefficient. Lacks DAM tools and polish compared to LR or Aperture. You know the rest. I use it in Sessions along with LR. I have an export preset that sends the raw to C1, export a tiff back to LR. Not something you want to do with every image.

Dedicated data base apps: can only speak for Photo Supreme used with C1 and I noted my experience in an earlier thread. I don't like not being able to view edited raws in my preview grid. Approximates C1 but do not believe it will approximate any others. When you're looking for a B&W raw version and see only color versions it gets tedious. I believe this is consistent with other data base apps as well.


Develop
As I said above, I find Adobe fine for D800 files. If you preferred C1 it's because the initial render is closer to a finished product. As is Apple's built in converter. If you want better than Adobe, its basically Iridient, C1 or Apple. Perhaps Photo Ninja, I never used it with my D800. The downside is you're now dealing in a tif (perhaps PSD) workflow. So disk space will get eaten up fast if an average shoot for you is 25gb. After culling, I shoot that in a year. And for 3 years now have culled more old garbage than I've added with new. Running SSD internal and external gives a new meaning to culling.

There are a ton of freeware or low cost apps. Most use DCRAW as their converter. They have a devoted user base. I've looked at a few and, as budget is not an issue, felt none of them stood up to Aperture, my baseline at the time. Fuji XTrans was part of the issue, limited tool sets the other.


Integrated
Lightroom is excellent DAM, stable, reasonably fast except imports. Easy to learn. Superb DAM tools everywhere you look. Weaknesses: conversions are not the greatest when it comes to detail, renders a flat image that needs work, a few develop tools could be better.(shadow recovery, NR is heavy handed, sharpening is better in PS). Though I find the DeHaze tool a wonder and it's now the first tool I go to after getting exposure dialed in (3rd party plugin as I have the standalone version).

There's DXO and Nikon's NX, not enough experience there to render an opinion. I'd agree with your decision not to use C1 for both DAM and Develop.

There are legions of us who looked for an alternative to Lightroom. Most of us failed. If you shot Fuji XTrans or some of the new Sony's (there's a reason why Sony includes a $30 offer for C1) you'd have a lot more compelling reasons for seeking a life without Lightroom. But you don't shoot Fuji or an A7. The 3 people I know who shoot D800/810's all use Lightroom and nothing else. They are happy with it and shoot anywhere from 20,000 to 150,000 images per year. One has established a very successful pro photo business with perhaps half his customers being critical people in the visual arts field.

My concern is you're being penny wise and dollar foolish. Sell a lens. If you're like me, you have a drawer full of glass you can't part with but never use.
 

robgendreau

macrumors 68040
Jul 13, 2008
3,471
339
Graphic Converter: slower than PM but handles more file types and uses Apple Raw for conversions. Not in vogue but I'd take it over PM. Now appears stable as I use it when I want to just browse my 35,000 image library. May not be able to send a raw file to an external develop app. If you're satisfied with Apple renders, just export a PSD to PS and do ALL your editing there.
I think GC uses dcraw; it had support for my camera before Apple did.
 

Ray2

macrumors 65816
Jul 8, 2014
1,170
489
I think GC uses dcraw; it had support for my camera before Apple did.
Yes, you're right. They always did use DCRAW. I thought they also had a pref setting to use Apple's Digital Camera RAW instead but I don't see one. Shows how much I use it for RAW files.
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
DAM
Photo Mechanic: you're a high volume shooter. If you cull big time, its fast. Can't handle PDF's. DAM beyond the browser is nothing special and Lightroom/Aperture are much better. If you edit in it its dreadfully slow and you will fill your drive with sidecars (perhaps can be turned off). With 35,000 images it was a bit unstable on my 3.0 i7 rMBP + 16gb. Don't know if it was the app or my limited resources.

Graphic Converter: slower than PM but handles more file types and uses Apple Raw for conversions. Not in vogue but I'd take it over PM. Now appears stable as I use it when I want to just browse my 35,000 image library. May not be able to send a raw file to an external develop app. If you're satisfied with Apple renders, just export a PSD to PS and do ALL your editing there.

Bridge: not particularly stable once you load 25,000+ images in it and a resource hog, though you have a lot of compute power. Not sure about file types. Lightroom cannot handle PDF's or some video formats, may be the same with Bridge. Summons ACR for raw edits -- same as Lightroom but not as pretty. Integrates/works well with ACR and PS. Too many crashes for me. Always came back fine.

C1: v8 is more stable but it's no Lightroom. Metadata handling is inefficient. Lacks DAM tools and polish compared to LR or Aperture. You know the rest. I use it in Sessions along with LR. I have an export preset that sends the raw to C1, export a tiff back to LR. Not something you want to do with every image.

Dedicated data base apps: can only speak for Photo Supreme used with C1 and I noted my experience in an earlier thread. I don't like not being able to view edited raws in my preview grid. Approximates C1 but do not believe it will approximate any others. When you're looking for a B&W raw version and see only color versions it gets tedious. I believe this is consistent with other data base apps as well.


Develop
As I said above, I find Adobe fine for D800 files. If you preferred C1 it's because the initial render is closer to a finished product. As is Apple's built in converter. If you want better than Adobe, its basically Iridient, C1 or Apple. Perhaps Photo Ninja, I never used it with my D800. The downside is you're now dealing in a tif (perhaps PSD) workflow. So disk space will get eaten up fast if an average shoot for you is 25gb. After culling, I shoot that in a year. And for 3 years now have culled more old garbage than I've added with new. Running SSD internal and external gives a new meaning to culling.

There are a ton of freeware or low cost apps. Most use DCRAW as their converter. They have a devoted user base. I've looked at a few and, as budget is not an issue, felt none of them stood up to Aperture, my baseline at the time. Fuji XTrans was part of the issue, limited tool sets the other.


Integrated
Lightroom is excellent DAM, stable, reasonably fast except imports. Easy to learn. Superb DAM tools everywhere you look. Weaknesses: conversions are not the greatest when it comes to detail, renders a flat image that needs work, a few develop tools could be better.(shadow recovery, NR is heavy handed, sharpening is better in PS). Though I find the DeHaze tool a wonder and it's now the first tool I go to after getting exposure dialed in (3rd party plugin as I have the standalone version).

There's DXO and Nikon's NX, not enough experience there to render an opinion. I'd agree with your decision not to use C1 for both DAM and Develop.

There are legions of us who looked for an alternative to Lightroom. Most of us failed. If you shot Fuji XTrans or some of the new Sony's (there's a reason why Sony includes a $30 offer for C1) you'd have a lot more compelling reasons for seeking a life without Lightroom. But you don't shoot Fuji or an A7. The 3 people I know who shoot D800/810's all use Lightroom and nothing else. They are happy with it and shoot anywhere from 20,000 to 150,000 images per year. One has established a very successful pro photo business with perhaps half his customers being critical people in the visual arts field.

My concern is you're being penny wise and dollar foolish. Sell a lens. If you're like me, you have a drawer full of glass you can't part with but never use.

Thank you for the comprehensive review/article. Informative, authoritative and well written. A real boost to read.

Your final line is however mute as lenses (All Canon Pro stuff plus medium format film setup) went with the business and only have 3 at the moment to which I would love to add 200/400mm new from Nikon - some hopes.

However I do take your point. A small amount of cash may be available a little later in the year which may coincide with El Kapitan launch. The two will finally trigger a decision finalè!

There has been some really helpful responses to my original question and I am grateful for that.

Regards

Sharkey
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.