I do that about every 2 weeks, my cMP and fans still good.
In my case, I don't even wait. The air coming out from my 110V DataVac duster is very dry.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
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De-Dusting & Northbridge temp reduction in Dual CPU cMP 4,1 & 5,1
- Thread starter MIKX
- Start date
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I do that about every 2 weeks, my cMP and fans still good.
In my case, I don't even wait. The air coming out from my 110V DataVac duster is very dry.
EDITED :
We would need a aerodynamics specialist to answer that precisely.
But you raise a good point regarding moisture /condensation
I suppose that you could test the compressor close up on a mirror to see if there is any condensation.
Also. . . I wouldn't want to blow away and resistors
I find good brand canned air is sufficient but you raise a good point regarding moisture. If you are pumping room temperature air there should be little or no condensation.
I always firstly remove the CPUs tray and then use a Japanese, long hair ( non-conductive ) brush for close cleaning the CPU tray PCB board and then a light going over with the canned air.
You can clean the intake & exhaust fan blades with a DAMP long hair brush & final sweep with cotton buds. I found that "smooth ", dust-free blades yield better airflow thus perhaps a little extra cooling.
We would need a aerodynamics specialist to answer that precisely.
But you raise a good point regarding moisture /condensation
I suppose that you could test the compressor close up on a mirror to see if there is any condensation.
Also. . . I wouldn't want to blow away and resistors
I find good brand canned air is sufficient but you raise a good point regarding moisture. If you are pumping room temperature air there should be little or no condensation.
I always firstly remove the CPUs tray and then use a Japanese, long hair ( non-conductive ) brush for close cleaning the CPU tray PCB board and then a light going over with the canned air.
You can clean the intake & exhaust fan blades with a DAMP long hair brush & final sweep with cotton buds. I found that "smooth ", dust-free blades yield better airflow thus perhaps a little extra cooling.
EDITED :
We would need a aerodynamics specialist to answer that precisely.
But you raise a good point regarding moisture /condensation
I suppose that you could test the compressor close up on a mirror to see if there is any condensation.
Also. . . I wouldn't want to blow away and resistors
I find good brand canned air is sufficient but you raise a good point regarding moisture. If you are pumping room temperature air there should be little or no condensation.
I always firstly remove the CPUs tray and then use a Japanese, long hair ( non-conductive ) brush for close cleaning the CPU tray PCB board and then a light going over with the canned air.
You can clean the intake & exhaust fan blades with a DAMP long hair brush & final sweep with cotton buds. I found that "smooth ", dust-free blades yield better airflow thus perhaps a little extra cooling.
Canned air was compressed in the factory. Then stored in a can, makes it have long time to cool down (match the ambient temperature). When you release them, they decompress and cool down, once below the dew point, water start to condensate (if there is any moisture in the air).
For electric compressor. The air draw from the outside in real time, then warm up during the compress state, which make them very dry. When the air is released (and decompressed), it still warmer than the surrounding air. Unless the local relative humidity is 100%, there should be no water condensation in this process.
And it's very impossible to blow away any resistor etc. That will require exceptional extraordinary air pressure to make it happen. And no consumer duster / can air has that pressure. (You know my job, I studied aerodynamic
)However, no need to be too academic. We can easily know if the blowers are safe to use.
Most duster can't blow away the very fine dust that stick to the PCB (which is normal, and there is no need to make them 100% dust free, all we need is just reasonably clean), your brush is already way stronger than duster / can air (because it can easily remove all those sticky dust). If the duster can blow away any electronic component, your brush should able to make even more damage (because it's even more powerful). But obviously it's very very hard to remove a resistor by your brush. So, compress air can only be safer.
yes, I was being farcical about the resistors and I know that you don't need X-Plane as you have mastered the real thing !(You know my job, I studied aerodynamic
The city where I live in Japan is surrounded on three sides by mountains which is like living in a big Chinese WOK bowl. Summer is occasionally unbearable with almost 40°C / 104°F + 70%+ humidity on many days.
Tonight at 11:30 pm my cMP room's ambient temp is just on still 30°C after a hot day. From now, through June until late August it will get hotter still.
I am now cooling the Northbridge chip + the CPU B & CPU A RAM modules with USB 50mm x 50mm 10mm 16.4 CFM fans and have upped the Intake & Exhaust fans a little.
My intention is mainly focused on the Northbridge chip and I plan to keep the current NB USB fan as a permanent fixture Summer & Winter; the RAM fans will be removed in Autumn & Winter.
Most of today my NB Tdiode temp ranged from 57 ~ 58°C .
I am now totally convinced that a better, more efficient NB heatsink with an attached fan ( see the above size + CFM rating ) can be designed & fitted and am working on creating a test ( copper ) heatsink using a two axis CNC milling machine.
Tonight's iStats Menus
Tonight at 11:30 pm my cMP room's ambient temp is just on still 30°C after a hot day. From now, through June until late August it will get hotter still.
I am now cooling the Northbridge chip + the CPU B & CPU A RAM modules with USB 50mm x 50mm 10mm 16.4 CFM fans and have upped the Intake & Exhaust fans a little.
My intention is mainly focused on the Northbridge chip and I plan to keep the current NB USB fan as a permanent fixture Summer & Winter; the RAM fans will be removed in Autumn & Winter.
Most of today my NB Tdiode temp ranged from 57 ~ 58°C .
I am now totally convinced that a better, more efficient NB heatsink with an attached fan ( see the above size + CFM rating ) can be designed & fitted and am working on creating a test ( copper ) heatsink using a two axis CNC milling machine.
Tonight's iStats Menus
Thanks for the concern for my machine. I an assure you I have compressed air the entire machine.peterc18st
1.
I highly recommend that you shut down, remove the CPU tray and thoroughly de-dust the lower INTAKE and more importantly. . the lower EXHAUST fans. Doing this really makes a difference. I can't stress this enough - get ALL the dust out. . even the little cheese grater holes - front & rear.
2..
Also make sure that your Mac Pro has plenty of space behind it to allow hot air dissipation.
3.
Use canned air to blow out the dust from your CPUs heatsinks. Put the canned air nozzle's extension tube deep into the CPU heatsink's fins - from both ends. Blast everywhere you feel dust may have accumulated.
I also use a non-conductive, soft brush with long hairs to go over the CPU Tray PCB.
===============================
The fan I use on the NB heatsink is an Ainex Typhoon 16.8 CFM
The 10 mm fan thickness allows a slight downwards inclination towards the NB heatsink.
( I also put a small circular sticker on all my fans with an arrow drawn to show which way the air is blowing out.
View attachment 845895
I have done ( Since April 2019 ) a lot of research into cMP cooling. Maybe reading all of this thread will help you - only two pages..
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mp-reduction-in-dual-cpu-cmp-4-1-5-1.2179729/
You could also try NOT using Macs Fan Control - use the fan control built in in iStats Menus
Your CPU and NB temps are definitely too high at your ambient temp.
If you are replying to me please reply to the above " De-dusting" thread.
Good luck !
I believe you are concerned because the pictures I uploaded were during stress tests of my machine via yes and LuxMark. They were running for about 20 minutes where everything normalized. Here are my temperatures with no load. As you can see my machine hoovers between 40-50c. 60c on Northbridge is a bit high compared to your temps but compared to what I was getting before of 80c at idle, I think 60c is better.
Yes it is. Today was 32.2C in Houston. Thank you again. You’re the reason I got a fan for my Northbridge and redid the thermal paste.
Since starting this thread I have learned a lot regarding cooling my DUAL QUAD cMP 4,1>5,1.
I live in middle Japan which at the moment is entering summer. Most days if not hot, rainy & humid are just hot & humid. It is not uncommon in August to have 40°C temps with high humidity which helps make dust 'sticky'.
This whole project is aimed squarely at reducing cMP internal SUMMER temps with a focus on the Northbridge chip.
In Late Autumn I will probably be able to remove the fans
As you can see in the photo below, I have now installed 3 small and slim 16.14CFM 12v fans.
1. Nortbridge fan powered by onboard SATA.
2. PCIe NVMe blades fan powered by PCIe USB 3 card.
3. CPU A RAM fan powered by under-desk 7 port USB 2,0 HUB
================================================
Once per summer month I use canned air to thoroughly de-dust everything inside the cMP case and if required, adjust fan positions.
In their current positions, all 3 fans are yielding stable, acceptable temps though in today's pic I had about 4 slightly demanding apps running when I did the iStats Menus screen grab.
Additionally, my Northbridge heatsink is now attached to the NB chip using the Nut & Bolt technique and with a recent re-application of Artic Silver thermal paste which appears to give a little extra direct heat transfer to the heatsink.
The standard nylon rivets are there to counter heatsink expansion/contraction with NB hi & low loads but in my cMP expansion.contraction is minimised as ( now ) my CPU tray area temps much less now due to the USB fans.
NOTE : A constantly over-temp Northbridge eg: 70 ~80°C cannot be good for humble nylon rivets )
NOTE : The 4,1 & 5,1's PSU is actually the most difficult to keep cool even with the DVD drive doors taped open and higher stock fan speeds.. Thus I have decided to replace the existing original fan with a more robust Noctua model which is not going to be a hassle as I will remove the current upper intake fans socket from the motherboard and then cut the cable it and retract the remaining cable from under the motherboard/backplane & remove the fan.
I will power the Noctua from a spare SATA PORT along with the Noctua rev control unit - stored in the DVD drives cage area - though it MAY be possible to hack the stock Noctua fan cable to the backplane upper fan power to allow normal Apple temp control - possible if the Noctua has the same number of cables ? Hmmmm. . fan pinouts . .
I cannot stress enough that de-dusting your cMP in early summer will be rewarding and by de-dusting I mean get yourself two or better, three cans of air and especially start with the lower rear exhaust fan which rapidly accumulates dust thus lowering heat dissipation from the CPU tray area.
Use a soft, long-haired ( non-conductive ) brush to go over the backplane-motherboard and CPU tray
I also de-dust ALL of the cheese grater ventilation holes - from the inside of the case.
It is not difficult to convert standard hi-cfm 12v fans to USB power and 4 ~ 6 port USB hubs are cheap now.
Nut & Bolt Heatsink technique
( Note ; the rivet springs can be used with the bolts )
Currrent stable setup
Notice that I have introduced fans for CPU A's RAM & the two NVMe blades ( the CPU lock bar holds the fan very securely )
The CPU A RAM fan needs a re-think, perhaps to the rear of the RAM bank & turned 180° to EXTRACT AIR to the main stock exhaust fan.
I will be tidying up the fan cabling this week - I realize that they look a bit messy.
( I used an eraser to hold the EVGs PowerLink securely in place atop the front intake fan. )
iStats Menus ( Ambient room temp has been 30+° all night. ). fAn speeds a are slightly high but it IS summer here.
If deciding to install a Northbridge USB powered fan look for 50 x 50 x 10/15mm High CFM ( mine are 16.14 CFM ).
( My first NB fan was something like 10 CFM = not strong enough to make a real difference. )
GOOD EXAMPLE : Omega Typhoon CFZ-6010S ( available only here in Japan I think. )
This continues to be a very interesting, beneficial & rewarding project.
I live in middle Japan which at the moment is entering summer. Most days if not hot, rainy & humid are just hot & humid. It is not uncommon in August to have 40°C temps with high humidity which helps make dust 'sticky'.
This whole project is aimed squarely at reducing cMP internal SUMMER temps with a focus on the Northbridge chip.
In Late Autumn I will probably be able to remove the fans
As you can see in the photo below, I have now installed 3 small and slim 16.14CFM 12v fans.
1. Nortbridge fan powered by onboard SATA.
2. PCIe NVMe blades fan powered by PCIe USB 3 card.
3. CPU A RAM fan powered by under-desk 7 port USB 2,0 HUB
================================================
Once per summer month I use canned air to thoroughly de-dust everything inside the cMP case and if required, adjust fan positions.
In their current positions, all 3 fans are yielding stable, acceptable temps though in today's pic I had about 4 slightly demanding apps running when I did the iStats Menus screen grab.
Additionally, my Northbridge heatsink is now attached to the NB chip using the Nut & Bolt technique and with a recent re-application of Artic Silver thermal paste which appears to give a little extra direct heat transfer to the heatsink.
The standard nylon rivets are there to counter heatsink expansion/contraction with NB hi & low loads but in my cMP expansion.contraction is minimised as ( now ) my CPU tray area temps much less now due to the USB fans.
NOTE : A constantly over-temp Northbridge eg: 70 ~80°C cannot be good for humble nylon rivets )
NOTE : The 4,1 & 5,1's PSU is actually the most difficult to keep cool even with the DVD drive doors taped open and higher stock fan speeds.. Thus I have decided to replace the existing original fan with a more robust Noctua model which is not going to be a hassle as I will remove the current upper intake fans socket from the motherboard and then cut the cable it and retract the remaining cable from under the motherboard/backplane & remove the fan.
I will power the Noctua from a spare SATA PORT along with the Noctua rev control unit - stored in the DVD drives cage area - though it MAY be possible to hack the stock Noctua fan cable to the backplane upper fan power to allow normal Apple temp control - possible if the Noctua has the same number of cables ? Hmmmm. . fan pinouts . .
I cannot stress enough that de-dusting your cMP in early summer will be rewarding and by de-dusting I mean get yourself two or better, three cans of air and especially start with the lower rear exhaust fan which rapidly accumulates dust thus lowering heat dissipation from the CPU tray area.
Use a soft, long-haired ( non-conductive ) brush to go over the backplane-motherboard and CPU tray
I also de-dust ALL of the cheese grater ventilation holes - from the inside of the case.
It is not difficult to convert standard hi-cfm 12v fans to USB power and 4 ~ 6 port USB hubs are cheap now.
Nut & Bolt Heatsink technique
( Note ; the rivet springs can be used with the bolts )
Currrent stable setup
Notice that I have introduced fans for CPU A's RAM & the two NVMe blades ( the CPU lock bar holds the fan very securely
)The CPU A RAM fan needs a re-think, perhaps to the rear of the RAM bank & turned 180° to EXTRACT AIR to the main stock exhaust fan.
I will be tidying up the fan cabling this week - I realize that they look a bit messy.
( I used an eraser to hold the EVGs PowerLink securely in place atop the front intake fan.
)iStats Menus ( Ambient room temp has been 30+° all night. ). fAn speeds a are slightly high but it IS summer here.
If deciding to install a Northbridge USB powered fan look for 50 x 50 x 10/15mm High CFM ( mine are 16.14 CFM ).
( My first NB fan was something like 10 CFM = not strong enough to make a real difference. )
GOOD EXAMPLE : Omega Typhoon CFZ-6010S ( available only here in Japan I think. )
This continues to be a very interesting, beneficial & rewarding project.
Wow! Amazing work to cool the 5,1!
I'll add my 5,1 'dust out' tip...
Every couple of months I take my 5,1 outside and open the big flap.
I have an electric leaf blower that has a low setting.
I gently blow out the dust and am always amazed by the cloud.
Leaves no particle unblown.
Clean machine.
I'll add my 5,1 'dust out' tip...
Every couple of months I take my 5,1 outside and open the big flap.
I have an electric leaf blower that has a low setting.
I gently blow out the dust and am always amazed by the cloud.
Leaves no particle unblown.
Clean machine.
Here’s my actual setup:
Still trying to find out optimal positioning.
The fan is a Noctua NF-A6X25 FLX and I’m using it with one of its “reducers” to lower the fan speed. Interestingly, I’ve found out that, at best, there’s a 2°C difference between the fan at full speed and at reduced speed. With the reducer, the fan is (almost) completely silent.
Northbridge temps are highest when idle, at 60°C, because when CPU temps rise, the other fans go faster. Thus, at full load, the Northbridge is at 50°C due to the surrounding fans.
Still trying to find out optimal positioning.
The fan is a Noctua NF-A6X25 FLX and I’m using it with one of its “reducers” to lower the fan speed. Interestingly, I’ve found out that, at best, there’s a 2°C difference between the fan at full speed and at reduced speed. With the reducer, the fan is (almost) completely silent.
Northbridge temps are highest when idle, at 60°C, because when CPU temps rise, the other fans go faster. Thus, at full load, the Northbridge is at 50°C due to the surrounding fans.
donluca
The Noctua NA-FC1 fan controller allows speed control
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NA-FC1-4-pin-PWM-Controller/dp/B072M2HKSN
The Noctua NA-FC1 fan controller allows speed control
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NA-FC1-4-pin-PWM-Controller/dp/B072M2HKSN
That’s going a bit too far into the rabbit hole, I’m satisfied with my 3 “reducer” cables to tinker with the fan speed
My " Cooler Northbrige & cMP de-dusting" project is has come to a successful conclusion.
My aim was to dramatically reduce summer peak temps for ..
1. NorthBridge chip specifically.
2. PSU
3. 4,1 & 5,1 cMP CPU trays CPU & RAM.
5. PCIe slot area. Specifically for NVMe blades.
I live in Japan in a city surrounded on three sides by mountain ranges. I suspect that due to Climate Chnage or the fact that Japan's booming economy over the past 20 years has enabled many mor people to afford interior air-conditioning as a result this year we have had many days exceeding 39°C / 102°F consecutively. ( 40°C three days last week ) .
===============================================
If you have read all my posts in this thread please bear in mind that the key words are " Summer Temps".
Here in Japan are are currently ( mid-August )at near mid-summer. My Northbridge Chip has hovered at 58 ~ 60°C temps with ambient at 38 ~ 40°C. and outside temps ranging from 36 ~ 39°C averages.
All other above listed temps have also been reduced and maintained during this 2019 Summer.
Using the installed USB Hi-CFM fans and doing a monthly thorough de-dusting ( cheesegrater holes too ) Of course in conjunction I also used Mac Fans Control Vs 15 beta to bump up the cMP default installed fan speeds but not excessively.
When Autumn finally comes around I will be removing all my USB powered fans except for teh NorthBridge fan - it is always required.
NOTE : I particularly recommend that cMP owners shut down + remove CPU Tray and then thoroughly de-dust the intake and exhaust fans ( especially the lower exhaust fan ! ) AND also de-dust ALL the cheese grater holes. The amount of accumulated dust that I removed from around the lower exhaust fan / cheesegrater holes was absolutely phenomenal.
My aim was to dramatically reduce summer peak temps for ..
1. NorthBridge chip specifically.
2. PSU
3. 4,1 & 5,1 cMP CPU trays CPU & RAM.
5. PCIe slot area. Specifically for NVMe blades.
I live in Japan in a city surrounded on three sides by mountain ranges. I suspect that due to Climate Chnage or the fact that Japan's booming economy over the past 20 years has enabled many mor people to afford interior air-conditioning as a result this year we have had many days exceeding 39°C / 102°F consecutively. ( 40°C three days last week ) .
===============================================
If you have read all my posts in this thread please bear in mind that the key words are " Summer Temps".
Here in Japan are are currently ( mid-August )at near mid-summer. My Northbridge Chip has hovered at 58 ~ 60°C temps with ambient at 38 ~ 40°C. and outside temps ranging from 36 ~ 39°C averages.
All other above listed temps have also been reduced and maintained during this 2019 Summer.
Using the installed USB Hi-CFM fans and doing a monthly thorough de-dusting ( cheesegrater holes too ) Of course in conjunction I also used Mac Fans Control Vs 15 beta to bump up the cMP default installed fan speeds but not excessively.
When Autumn finally comes around I will be removing all my USB powered fans except for teh NorthBridge fan - it is always required.
NOTE : I particularly recommend that cMP owners shut down + remove CPU Tray and then thoroughly de-dust the intake and exhaust fans ( especially the lower exhaust fan ! ) AND also de-dust ALL the cheese grater holes. The amount of accumulated dust that I removed from around the lower exhaust fan / cheesegrater holes was absolutely phenomenal.
Thanks for sharing your results with everyone. Been paying close attention to cooling issues with my 5.1 since the start of your post. New thermal paste is needed for mine, but need to get rivets/bolt solution before I remove the heatsink... IOH Diode on mine has been at 63-67 C with very light load. I suspect the thermal paste is now crumbled into dust as it's original... been ramping CPU fans to get it down to lower temps, but needs to get addressed sooner than later. As it's summer here in Toronto, temps are mid to high 20's, so that's not helping.
Alex Sanders74
be grateful that you have. genuine 5,1 cMP. Compared to the 4,1 2009 model removing and replacing the heatsink is dead easy.
I'm looking at using Graphite thermal pads for my NB heatsink for next summer.
This video got my attention
https://www.innovationcooling.com/initial-desktop-tests-ic-graphite-vs-gelid-gc-extreme/
Thermal paste obviously will dry, harden, bake hard over time.
Graphite by comparison 'should ' retain it's thermal transfer capability ad nauseum.
I toyed with making a re-designed Northbridge "copper" heatsink with the dispersion fins extending up, higher against the side of CPU A heatsink wall. as I have access to a CNC milling machine but sadly I just have not had enough free time to get started but the initial re-design is finished .. but .. at present I can't find it ... A good project for my rapidly approaching retirement.
be grateful that you have. genuine 5,1 cMP. Compared to the 4,1 2009 model removing and replacing the heatsink is dead easy.
I'm looking at using Graphite thermal pads for my NB heatsink for next summer.
This video got my attention
https://www.innovationcooling.com/initial-desktop-tests-ic-graphite-vs-gelid-gc-extreme/
Thermal paste obviously will dry, harden, bake hard over time.
Graphite by comparison 'should ' retain it's thermal transfer capability ad nauseum.
I toyed with making a re-designed Northbridge "copper" heatsink with the dispersion fins extending up, higher against the side of CPU A heatsink wall. as I have access to a CNC milling machine but sadly I just have not had enough free time to get started but the initial re-design is finished .. but .. at present I can't find it ..
. A good project for my rapidly approaching retirement.
Very grateful to have an original 5.1. I waited patiently as my budget was next to nothing... Work gave me a couple as they were going to the recycler.. Such a waste, but I saved them.
I'll check out the video as thermal pads are something I was entertaining... Need those M3 bolts first to swap for the plastic rivets.
Interested to hear how your copper heatsink project goes...
I'll check out the video as thermal pads are something I was entertaining... Need those M3 bolts first to swap for the plastic rivets.
Interested to hear how your copper heatsink project goes...
Also got a 4.1 in that little purge. I gave a 5.1 to my brother as his MacBook had died the week before. Very good fortune on my part that I'm very thankful for. This computer gets well taken care of.
Hey did you end up installing this USB card? I like the fact it has the 2 usb in the rear, it doesn't say it supports mac OS so just wondering if you got it to work
johndo18
Yes it worked out of the box from day one. it is PCIe link width X1
Sold it to a Japanese friend here.
However, I rationalised my USB 3.0 needs ; I have an external 7 port USB hub with it's own external power supply ffor printers ( I have three ), webcam, Bluetooth Dongle etc. Don't ned USB 3.0 speeds for these.
I now use a SATA powered Century CIF-U31P2 Two port USB 3.1 card ASM1142. PCIe link width X 2 for my external 3.1 Dock ( two HDD ) with it's own power adapter. Works OOB in 10.14.6
Yes it worked out of the box from day one. it is PCIe link width X1
Sold it to a Japanese friend here.
However, I rationalised my USB 3.0 needs ; I have an external 7 port USB hub with it's own external power supply ffor printers ( I have three ), webcam, Bluetooth Dongle etc. Don't ned USB 3.0 speeds for these.
I now use a SATA powered Century CIF-U31P2 Two port USB 3.1 card ASM1142. PCIe link width X 2 for my external 3.1 Dock ( two HDD ) with it's own power adapter. Works OOB in 10.14.6
MIKX, I really appreciate your thorough and analytical approach to Northbridge cooling.
One of your main concerns with Northbridge heating seems to be that of its effect on the Northbridge heat-sink rivets. I would suggest replacing them with stainless-steel screws and nuts as shown HERE. Totally failure-proof, totally effective and less than $1US.
For dust removal, I take my cMP down to its components every 4 to 6 months or so, clean everything and reassemble. It keeps me in touch with everything about the machine. And it's kind of an active-meditation that makes for a very pleasant afternoon for person with my admittedly nerdy proclivities.
Thanks again for a very detailed look at this aspect of device cooling.
One of your main concerns with Northbridge heating seems to be that of its effect on the Northbridge heat-sink rivets. I would suggest replacing them with stainless-steel screws and nuts as shown HERE. Totally failure-proof, totally effective and less than $1US.
For dust removal, I take my cMP down to its components every 4 to 6 months or so, clean everything and reassemble. It keeps me in touch with everything about the machine. And it's kind of an active-meditation that makes for a very pleasant afternoon for person with my admittedly nerdy proclivities.
Thanks again for a very detailed look at this aspect of device cooling.