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I understand, but I have seen what 4ghz+ can do compared to 3+

On the same arch. A 3GHz Sandy Bridge will spank any 4GHz Pentium 4 on any real world, non "100% small cache loaded" , computational workload.

Intel is holding back on some capable raw speed.

It is more so how people measure speed. Some folks are only interesting in drag racing cache loads mirco benchmarks. Other folks are measuring system throughput. Intel's design mix on Xeons does quite fine on system throughput coupled with 25/7/365 workload over mulitiple years. .
 
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On the same arch. A 3GHz Sandy Bridge will spank any 4GHz Pentium 4 on any real world, non "100% small cache loaded" , computational workload.



It is more so how people measure speed. Some folks are only interesting in drag racing cache loads mirco benchmarks. Other folks are measuring system throughput. Intel's design mix on Xeons does quite fine on system throughput coupled with 25/7/365 workload over mulitiple years. .

But I don't think you can deny that if you take this new cpu and clock the same system to 4 ghz or more that you in fact would notice the speed in various daily tasks. Anyway, I would. My point is that Intel could easily do this with existing product lines if it made marketing sense.

Not a Xeon, but IGM easily gets 4.3ghz on an Ivy as an example:
http://www.insanely-great.com/news....Mac+(Insanely+Great+Mac)&utm_content=My+Yahoo
 
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but not customized to the same degree. The more changes that need to be made the more work needs to be done on a specialized configuration line.
Hence, they are different. You can quibble whether the extra work is worth the change but whole "Customer configure" process has mark-up built-in.





If exactly the same components that would mean the bases are exactly the same but at different prices. I'm not seeing starting points with the same pricing on the US sites.


I customised both to the exact same degree so I am not sure what you mean. I am honestly not following. If I can take the lowest model and the middle model and customise them to the EXACT SAME SPECIFICATIONS, then why should I pay more for the BASE model and save money by starting with the configuration added to the middle model. If I can customise different bases to the exact same specifications, then I should be paying the same price. I am not sure why that is an unreasonable expectation. The fact of the matter is that it is dishonest that I can build the same configuration at a cheaper end price if I start with the middle configuration. I upgraded the CPU, RAM, GPU and power supply on both models to the exact same specifications. They were both lower than the options I upgraded to.
 
It is a 5MB cache increase ( which is a 50% bump up over the 10MB of the 1650 ). If get to the point cache bound, that is a significant jump. Minimally, $497 of that price delta is coming from Intel since they peg the value difference at that much.

For those who probably need 8 cores and are "settling" for 6, it is probably worth it. However, best price/performance ratio? .... the top end Intel offering never has that. Folks are always paying in part to be on the bleeding edge. Intel is always willing to take that extra money.

They have 12MB cache - Intel's ark site is incorrect if you are using that. I know what the benefits are, but for the creative workstation loads that people on this site tend to use it won't be worth a portion of their budget.

I customised both to the exact same degree so I am not sure what you mean. I am honestly not following. If I can take the lowest model and the middle model and customise them to the EXACT SAME SPECIFICATIONS, then why should I pay more for the BASE model and save money by starting with the configuration added to the middle model. If I can customise different bases to the exact same specifications, then I should be paying the same price. I am not sure why that is an unreasonable expectation. The fact of the matter is that it is dishonest that I can build the same configuration at a cheaper end price if I start with the middle configuration. I upgraded the CPU, RAM, GPU and power supply on both models to the exact same specifications. They were both lower than the options I upgraded to.

It's just the messiness of Dell's online system, prices can change at any time and offers are implemented in different ways. You can get links that lead to pages for the same system but they will have totally different customisation options and different prices even. I see plenty of errors on there, you should always buy over the phone anyway because a quote will be a better price than the site.
 
Somehow I feel this Mac pro will be cheaper. If you look at how apple has priced products since the introduction of the laSt Mac pro, they haven't really shyed away from making their products a good deal as well. I'm thinking a maybe 2200 base for single and 3100 base for double.
 
The processors are priced higher than Westmere for same expected performance so probably not. Unless we get some sort of subsidized action thanks to iOS stuff.
 
They have 12MB cache - Intel's ark site is incorrect if you are using that. I know what the benefits are, but for the creative workstation loads that people on this site tend to use it won't be worth a portion of their budget.
Yes I was looking at ark. Kind of weird for a vendor to screw up their own datasheet. But if mirrors the i7 3930K (and previous news/rumor reports of 2650 config) then yes it is 3MB gap which isn't that big of a percentage increase. [It did seem strange they would disable the L3 cache associated with the two additional cores on the die's ring bus. ]

I know the "bang for the buck" is off but that's why I said it would be useful for someone looking for an 8 but had to settle to 6. The new line up will likely be core wise :

4 , 6 , 6, then 12 , 16 , 16

the folks looking for the 8 zone , especially for mixed workloads with a modest amount of 1-2 core elements to it, are going to look at the upper 6 because it is closest to the gap they find themselves in. The entry dual package (12) looks better price wise but the clock rate has a huge tradeoff.
If there is enough budget to flush out the I/O and Memory as would have done for the "extra" $800 anyway then it it a buy.

If the $800 is a big deal then yes. Probably much better spent on plenty of RAM ( cache slowest storage first: storage) or faster I/O (faster storage or network to storage) or both .

IMHO there is way too much "wrap cheapest box around fastest GHz CPU package" is 'best' system for the workloads often talked about around here.
Nice drag racing boxes but not large throughput workload boxes.
 
Somehow I feel this Mac pro will be cheaper. If you look at how apple has priced products since the introduction of the laSt Mac pro, they haven't really shyed away from making their products a good deal as well. I'm thinking a maybe 2200 base for single and 3100 base for double.

Apple could increase the value and keep the price the same. For example, each model would come with a 1TB drive and a 24GB SSD cache drive (mSATA so still had 4 drive sleds) . Or dual 10GbE ports (instead of 1GbE). Or four x 2GB DIMMs in each bank. In short, another standard component that most/many would find useful.

It depends upon what has been leaving the gap for. The almost $500 gulf between upper standard config iMac and entry standard Mac Pro is large. It is as if they have been waiting to fill it with some product that wasn't quite ready. [ Like the "floor" on laptops set at $999 so the iPad could enter beneath it several years later. ]


Or perhaps the Mac Pro marketing folks were just asleep at the wheel (or cluelessly bowed to upscale iMac CTO configs.) last several years. If there is not another product to waiting to step into the gap.... they should close it.
The problem may turn into what do they cut back on to do that (e.g., slide back to 500GB drives or four 1GB DIMMs per bank. )
 
It's just the messiness of Dell's online system, prices can change at any time and offers are implemented in different ways. You can get links that lead to pages for the same system but they will have totally different customisation options and different prices even. I see plenty of errors on there, you should always buy over the phone anyway because a quote will be a better price than the site.
Yep, that system does look very messy. The price discrepancies I am seeming are because there are different discounts offered on the two different models, even if you customise them to the exact same specifications.
 
It depends upon what has been leaving the gap for. The almost $500 gulf between upper standard config iMac and entry standard Mac Pro is large. It is as if they have been waiting to fill it with some product that wasn't quite ready. [ Like the "floor" on laptops set at $999 so the iPad could enter beneath it several years later. ]


Or perhaps the Mac Pro marketing folks were just asleep at the wheel (or cluelessly bowed to upscale iMac CTO configs.) last several years. If there is not another product to waiting to step into the gap.... they should close it.
The problem may turn into what do they cut back on to do that (e.g., slide back to 500GB drives or four 1GB DIMMs per bank. )

I think you're reading into it a little bit much here. It was a pretty gradual process. 2005 G5s still started at $2000 and the quad went up to $3300 from the prior $3k model. Mac Pro 1,1 they brought the bottom model up $300 giving them the same scale top to bottom again (well mid was only $200 more which was weird). 2008 they started at $2800 (note the $300 increase on mid now) and added a CTO downgrade at $2300 which dropped to a single package version. 2009 they stopped using dual compliant parts on the low end and switched to a single package using a much cheaper cpu now at $2500 ($200 increase). 2010 the $3300 point goes to $3500.

I don't even care about $200 when it's a machine that will last several years. My point was that the inflation was structured, and I don't think they really intend to fill that gap. Their current lineup looks a bit clunky. In terms of new ones, they could go the 2008 route. Go one base single package model, use cheaper 6 core, use whatever else in the dual package.

Yep, that system does look very messy. The price discrepancies I am seeming are because there are different discounts offered on the two different models, even if you customise them to the exact same specifications.

What looks messy? If I went the PC route, I'd probably go with my trusty screwdriver over an oem build.
 
I customised both to the exact same degree so I am not sure what you mean. I am honestly not following.

Simply put, those components may not have the same costs associated with them. If your mental model is that Dell just puts all the parts that go into their machines into one big pile and then just selects parts as people fill out the webform then that's the flaw.

Here is a simple example can see after a couple of trips to the local store. First stop is cross town, moderate distance trip to a "big warehouse store". There you buy a big 48 roll package of toilet paper. Let's say you pay $0.50/roll for that.

Sometime later after you have put the last of that 48 into the dispenser in the upstairs bathroom, unexpectedly a large group comes over to for a party/watch sports/whatever. Large group in the house and no more toilet paper. Oh snap. So you run a much closer store and buy a package of 4 at $0.60/roll.

A short time later the downstairs bathroom runs out and you put one of the new rolls on. So you have a $0.50 roll upstairs and a $0.60 roll downstairs. "Unfair pricing"? Not really.


It actually should be more surprising that it is not optimal to first pick the starting point closest to the final result you want to get the best price. What you are saying is that customers should pick the configuration that is furthest away from what they want, spend more time configuring it, but still end up at the same point. The loopy-ness starts right there at picking the furthest distance to start from. That makes sense????


Picking the closest configuration means that Dell has the highest probability of having pre-ordered in bulk most of the parts you are about the buy. By selecting the configuration furthest away means you are lowering the probability to the smallest amount possible that Dell has pre-ordered in bulk the parts you are about the buy.

So you may end up exposing the "bulk buy" parts costs versus the "spot market" (or "low volume") price.

The vast majority of people actually follow the rational strategy of selecting the computer closest to what they want as a starting point. Dell would be loopy to bulk order large amounts of parts that only single digit percentage (or less) typically add to a starting configuration. They bulk order what expect people to buy (i.e., the parts in the typical configurations) in the quantities those models are characteristically are ordered in. That will lead to a system that leaves minimal inventory at the end of the week/month/quarter.

The fact is they aren't the "same" machine when finished. To the inventory tracking system one is likely the "SKU model 1234 with 23 mods" and the other is "SKU model 1235 with 10 mods" .

What is dubious is for those 'config to excess' options to be in the system in the first place. If people can only configure a "entry" model up to a "base" model then if they are looking for something larger/bigger than base then would back out and pick a better starting point and get the better price by themselves. Likewise, if the base is "too big" then pick another config one step down. Dell's SNAFU system is that there 20 different ways to wander through the maze to get to what is superficially the same place.


So users who pick an configuration option that is only rarely selected the pricing can change. This is because the parts come out of different "buckets".


P.S. One likely reason that the phone operators can get better pricing is because they are familiar with the byzantine model selection and do the task of picking the "closest starting point" better than users confronted with a half dozen grossly (if not gratuitously ) overlapping ones.
 
$2499 - Quad Core Intel Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz
$2899 - Six Core Intel Xeon E5-1650 3.2 GHz
$3699 - Six Core Intel Xeon E5-1660 3.3 GHz

$3499 - 2 x Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2620 2.0 GHz
$4999 - 2 x Eight Core Intel Xeon E5-2650 2.0 GHz
$6199 - 2 x Eight Core Intel Xeon E5-2670 2.4 GHz

What would the base QC 2012 MP (hypothetical ) with 16gb ram compare with 2010 base QC with 16gb ram ((not inc my ssd boot, 4tb raid etc)?

I guess how would the 2012 base with ssd boot, stock / cheapest graphics and 16gb ram compare with 2010 mp?
Also how would upgrading the 5,1 QC to a 6 core effect performance?
 
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