Developers: Android over iOS for the long haul

[(marc)]

Whatever the analyst said might be true for large companies like EA, but indie developers will most likely choose to develop on the platform they prefer. I develop for iOS and I'm not going to give up Cocoa touch for the Android SDK just because the sales on Android might be a little higher. Analysts have to change their mindset. Not everybody is as greedy as them.

Which Java's performance ? Java the language ? Java the Virtual Machine ? Java the platform ?

You just stepped into a huge stereotype that just showed how little you actually know about what you are talking about.

Note I said 'oftentimes'. Don't bother to show me performance charts, I've been into the topic before.

 

[maflynn]

Not everybody is as greedy as them.

Greed has little to do with it. If a developer who invest his time and energy on a given platform, he wants to make sure that he'll get a decent return on that investment. If an opposing platform presents a better business opportunity, then it makes business sense to produce for that platform.

There are developers that are quite loyal to both platforms and will not provide apps for the other apps, and that's ok, its their choice but many developers who rely on the income need to make the best decision to provide the best return on their work.

 

[KnightWRX]

Note I said 'oftentimes'. Don't bother to show me performance charts, I've been into the topic before.

You didn't answer the question. Which Java were you referring to ?

 

[maflynn]

I wasn't defending the iPhone at all. To say Android is sorely lacking in an area doesn't mean I must by default be kissing Apple's ass; insisting it does is just childish.

No but you come across as an apple fanboy and that you criticize non-apple products and my point stands. You only hear the fragmentation argument from the fanboys. It doesn't matter if the word iPhone comes up in the discussion or not. The fragmentation argument is more FUD then actual issues. A topic android haters try to use to prop up their arguments but that point has little merit as its not a problem, at least not to the proportion that it gets alleged here

Clearly the people who buy the apps don't complain about fragmentation as much as I see it here. Of all of the "normal" people (non-geeks) that I know who purchased an android based phone. Not a single person has mentioned any issues with fragmentation, or complaints that a given app doesn't work on their phone. Quite the contrary, they're very happy with the volume of apps available.

 

[Compile 'em all]

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I guess I'll have to stop using pinch to zoom or multitouch on my Nexus then.

I guess you need to work on your English language first before doing any pinching or zooming. Re-read slowly the post you quoted again.

No but you come across as an apple fanboy and that you criticize non-apple products and my point stands. You only hear the fragmentation argument from the fanboys. It doesn't matter if the word iPhone comes up in the discussion or not. The fragmentation argument is more FUD then actual issues. A topic android haters try to use to prop up their arguments but that point has little merit as its not a problem, at least not to the proportion that it gets alleged here

Clearly the people who buy the apps don't complain about fragmentation as much as I see it here. Of all of the "normal" people (non-geeks) that I know who purchased an android based phone. Not a single person has mentioned any issues with fragmentation, or complaints that a given app doesn't work on their phone. Quite the contrary, they're very happy with the volume of apps available.

This is a thread about a topic that matters to developers. Are you a developer? Fragmentation is a major major problem if you want to develop for Android and it will affect the future of the platform.

 

[*LTD*]

So Google can't actually churn out an iPhone-Killer (because naturally, they aren't Apple), so they employ the Windows/PC strategy. Just flood the market with your OS on every possible mobile device out there. Who cares about the User Experience and attention to detail when every second phone on the shelf runs some version or other of Android, in more hardware configurations than you can shake a stick at. It's certainly a recipe for making $$, provided Google and partners can push enough volume. It's also certainly a recipe for producing utter garbage in due course.

The only tech outfit I know of that can push volume sales and continue to make a great, user-centric product is Apple. And Google is no Apple.

 

[maflynn]

So Google can't actually churn out an iPhone-Killer (because naturally, they aren't Apple), so they employ the Windows/PC strategy. Just flood the market with your OS on every possible mobile device out there.

It was wildly successful and profitable for Microsoft to license the OS to various manufacturers, so yes why not. It makes more sense to have multiple devices on multiple carriers. Google is after all in the business to make a profit.

Who cares about the User Experience and attention to detail when every second phone on the shelf runs some version or other of Android, in more hardware configurations than you can shake a stick at.

Most people only use a single phone, and they choose the specific User Experience that best suits their needs. Some prefer HTC's SenseUI, others MotoBlur, and still others like the plain stock UI. So in a sense the manufacturers (HTC/MOTO/Samsung/etc) care about User Experience and attention to detail. This is no different then apple, in the sense that apple being the manufacturer is dictating the User Experience

Of course apple's attention to detail is well known, their attention to the antenna, proximity sensor and running iOS 4.0 on a 3GS are all great examples of apple paying attention to the details

It's certainly a recipe for making $$, provided Google and partners can push enough volume. It's also certainly a recipe for producing utter garbage in due course.

Well you're half right, it is a recipe for making $$ but its not producing utter garbage because consumers would not be plunking down 200 bucks and locking themselves into a 2 year contract for utter garbage. Your arrogance and fanboyism is failing to give the average credit in deciding what product is actually a good fit for THEIR needs.

And Google is no Apple.

And thank goodness. We only need one megalomanic trying to tell me what is good for me and denying apps because it doesn't fit is social-moral ideals is enough

This is a thread about a topic that matters to developers. Are you a developer? Fragmentation is a major major problem if you want to develop for Android and it will affect the future of the platform.

Actually I am. I'm a member of the apple developer program and was working on some ideas in producing an app. I'm getting my feet wet with the android sdk, though admittedly my time and energy has been such that both projects have been put on the back burner.

 

[chrono1081]

Its hyooge because consumers are buying android based phones that will shortly exceed the iPhone. As I stated the fragment platform is FUD and used by fanboys trying to defend the iphone.

You have no room to call anyone a fanboy after saying Android isn't fragmented.

Please, become a developer first and then see if you still think Android isn't fragmented.

 

[yg17]

You have no room to call anyone a fanboy after saying Android isn't fragmented.

Please, become a developer first and then see if you still think Android isn't fragmented.

And iOS isn't fragmented? You've got the first iPhone, which doesn't support iOS 4, that will forever be stuck on 3.x. Then the iPhone 3G supports iOS 4 but is missing features like multitasking and Game Center. Then there's the 3GS which has a compass, which means any apps you write that use the compass are useless on older iPhones. Now the iPhone 4 comes out with a higher resolution screen that some apps will have to update for. And let's not forget about the iPad which is an entirely different form factor and requires more work to be done to make apps iPad friendly. And I can't wait to see what sort of fragmentation we get when future generations of the iPad come out. Now the Apple TV is out running a version of iOS, if that's ever opened up for apps, it will be even more fragmented.

Sorry, but iOS is just as fragmented as Android.

 

[maflynn]

You have no room to call anyone a fanboy after saying Android isn't fragmented.

I never said it wasn't fragmented, just that its not to the level that apple fanboys cry about. Its more FUD then reality

Please, become a developer first and then see if you still think Android isn't fragmented.

I am developer, just because I haven't written any code for android (yet) does not make me any less of a developer

 

[KnightWRX]

I never said it wasn't fragmented, just that its not to the level that apple fanboys cry about. Its more FUD then reality

Exactly. (And btw, you forgot the iPod Touch and its different generations/capabilities in your iOS fragmentation examples). Android isn't the first platform to have fragmented hardware and it's not the last. The Mac is fragmented to all hell yet you don't see people whining about it.

Developers have been dealing with hardware fragmentation since the early days of the PC architecture. Do you have an EGA graphics card ? CGA ? VGA ? MCGA ? Tandy ? Do you have Adlib sound ? PC Speaker ? Sound Blaster digital audio ? Roland midi capabilities ?

And you know what, we have gone down that path, we have learned, abstracted and adapted. Android builds upon that. This is only a "huuuuuuuuuge major major" issue on Apple forums it seems. Maybe the iOS devs should put down Interface Builder and learn about the actual frameworks that make an SDK that serve to abstract all this stuff.

 

[(marc)]

Greed has little to do with it. If a developer who invest his time and energy on a given platform, he wants to make sure that he'll get a decent return on that investment.
[...]

When a dev chooses their development platform on where they'll make more money and not on which platform they prefer, to me, that's greed.

You didn't answer the question. Which Java were you referring to ?

I don't know the answer to your question. I'm no CS expert, but based on my experience, Java is indeed oftentimes slow.

 

[yg17]

When a dev chooses their development platform on where they'll make more money and not on which platform they prefer, to me, that's greed.

To me, that's smart business sense.

I don't know the answer to your question. I'm no CS expert, but based on my experience, Java is indeed oftentimes slow.

I do admit, I do not know a great deal about Android development, but it's my understanding that the Android SDK compiles the Java code into native code, reducing the overhead required by traditional Java VMs to translate the byte code into native machine code for that platform - in other words, even though an Android application is written in Java, and Java is traditionally cross platform, you can't run an Android application in a Java VM on your Windows or Mac computer, it would require emulation. So the problems traditionally associated with Java don't exist on Android.

And Java has greatly improved from the past anyways, it's no longer clunky and slow like it used to be - if the developer knows what they're doing and doesn't write crappy code (that can be said for any language). Many large companies are now using it with no issues. I'm a Java developer for one of the largest companies in the US and it works out quite well for us. Java doesn't give us any problem (Websphere on the other hand....), and it pays my salary. No complaints from me.

 

[maflynn]

When a dev chooses their development platform on where they'll make more money and not on which platform they prefer, to me, that's greed

That makes absolutely no sense. most developers choose a business plan where they can maximize profits. There's nothing wrong with making money or maximizing profits. Its not greed to see a business opportunity on one platform and pursue it.

So if a developer chooses to write iOS apps, is he being greedy because he's choosing that platform over another platform?

 

[ChazUK]

I guess you need to work on your English language first before doing any pinching or zooming. Slowly reread the post you quoted again.

It was a sarcastic response to a blatant inaccuracy.

I also made your quote easier to read/understand via a quick edit. I hope you don't mind? Also note, "reread" is a word just so you know so you can drop the hyphen in future.

 

[KnightWRX]

I don't know the answer to your question. I'm no CS expert, but based on my experience, Java is indeed oftentimes slow.

Based on what experience ? Again, which Java ? Here are the choices :

- Java the Virtual Machine
- Java the platform
- Java the language.

If you don't know the answer to this, you cannot claim Java is indeed often times slow with any kind of credibility.

I do admit, I do not know a great deal about Android development, but it's my understanding that the Android SDK compiles the Java code into native code, reducing the overhead required by traditional Java VMs to translate the byte code into native machine code for that platform - in other words, even though an Android application is written in Java, and Java is traditionally cross platform, you can't run an Android application in a Java VM on your Windows or Mac computer, it would require emulation. So the problems traditionally associated with Java don't exist on Android.

Indeed, your understanding is not wrong. Android uses 1 1/2 part of Java. They have the language, that much is evident and they are getting sued over it to boot. They are also using the platform somewhat, in that they have incorporated parts of Apache Harmony for J2SE compatibility. However, their main platform is not J2SE, it's Android. Apps will be written against Android and not Harmony for the most part.

Harmony is also a complete independant rewrite of the J2SE platform, free from any SUN code. I doubt the poster named (marc) has any experience with it if he wants to claim the platform is slow. He would then be talking about Sun's platform, which is far from slow.

The part they aren't using, and the part most often responsible for performance problems, is the VM itself. Sun's JVM is anything but slow nowadays, thanks to advances like the JIT compiler and other optimizations, but that's a none issue, Android uses Dalvik, a very performant VM that is not a Java Virtual Machine. It does not read in Java bytecode at all, it reads in a native Dalvik bytecode, which is what your Android app gets compiled to by the Android SDK. It's a complete ground up rewrite that is completely independant of code shipped by Sun.

As such, the poster was wrong on all accounts. He simply repeated a stereotype that doesn't even apply and hoped no one would notice. FUD if you like.

 

[chrono1081]

I never said it wasn't fragmented, just that its not to the level that apple fanboys cry about. Its more FUD then reality


I am developer, just because I haven't written any code for android (yet) does not make me any less of a developer

Fair enough, I didn't read your post close enough. Android is pretty bad though (when its in the hands of cell phone makers) especially seeing how as every manufaturer now wants to have their own app store in edition to the android app store.


If android was left alone and left to google to manage, it would be a very nice target for development, but since cell phone companies are ruining it I'm looking elsewhere.

 

[maflynn]

If android was left alone and left to google to manage, it would be a very nice target for development, but since cell phone companies are ruining it I'm looking elsewhere.

That's the double-edge sword of open source. FWIW, the core components of android is such that there's little risk/problems when writing code. Most of the additions/modifications is UI based.

What could be problematic for google/android is the other people creating competing marketplaces. That potentially is something that can confuse consumers and cause more headaches for google. I have to say that google did this to themselves by mismanaging the marketplace in the firstplace. if they provided a little more oversight and management android market, I suspect VZW and others may not be moving to creating their own.

 

[BaldiMac]

As such, the poster was wrong on all accounts. He simply repeated a stereotype that doesn't even apply and hoped no one would notice. FUD if you like.

Or, as he stated, in his experience as a computer user, the Java applications that he has used are oftentimes slow. You have (finally) provided a well thought out argument as to why his experience does not apply to Java, in general. No need to question his integrity as well.