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Thunder82

macrumors 6502
Jul 16, 2008
442
3
Chicago, IL
I would disagree with that. Clamoring for the delivery of new systems using components that have not even been released yet IS asking to be on the bleeding edge.

Think about the time it takes to deliver a quality laptop. You have to do the R&D and Design on real, available components and prototype, tune, and test, you have to make deals with dozens of manufactures and make sure they are delivering quality components to build you product, you have to have folks documenting and testing in preparation for supporting the products and put spares and repairs supplies, processes and procedures in, you have to develop drivers for many bits and pieces that need tuning and integration. Almost everything beyond the raw component level is custom.

In this case we have a set of new CPU/GPU's, not even been released yet, that will require entirely new motherboards, likely entirely new graphics designs and agreements and folks hare want the new machines to be released in the next few months. How is that not bleeding edge?

I bless whoever at Apple is holding the line at approximately annual product cycles (except for minor speed bumps) so we end up with well designed, stable, reliable, well supported products. And if that puts Apple a number of months behind the PC manufactures slapping the latest components together with little design, tuning, stability, reliability and support, I'll gladly pay EXTRA for being so far behind.

What is it you can't do on your current MAC that you think you will be able to do using the next generation MAC? Computers evolve year after year in an evolutionary rather than revolutionary way so are you really willing to sacrifice the current MAC user experience in favor of getting the latest 5%-10% performance or duration increase a few months earlier?

I'll agree to disagree. I'm not a stay at home mom who uses her mac for web browsing and email, where old technology might be "ok." I often have two virtual machines, excel, a VPN client, and half of the Adobe suite among other things open for work. AnandTech ran tests on the new Arrandale chips, and concluded that they are anywhere from 11.2 to 45.9% quicker depending on the task. If it takes, on average, 30% longer to encode a video or render an image, my boss will force me to use the in-house PCs. (which obviously isn't what I want) Obviously this doesn't apply to the MBA as it's not what I use for work, but purchasing another C2D based notebook when the rest of the world has corei5/i7 is not a possibility.
 

jimboutilier

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2008
647
42
Denver
The components have been released though and some models are shipping.

Sorry, I was talking about the Arendale mobile chips that might be suitable for the MBA and are of the same or faster speeds. To my knowledge none of these have been released - although engineering samples are likely out already.

I don't blame anyone wanting better/faster/longer system, it just seems most folks are expecting such short release cycles I'm not sure how they expect an Apple quality user experience.

I'm up for good power, less heat, better battery life, more RAM, more SSD too, but am willing to wait for Apple to "get it right".
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
Sorry, I was talking about the Arendale mobile chips that might be suitable for the MBA and are of the same or faster speeds. To my knowledge none of these have been released - although engineering samples are likely out already.
Arrandale Low Voltage processors are out with their Standard Voltage siblings.

I don't blame anyone wanting better/faster/longer system, it just seems most folks are expecting such short release cycles I'm not sure how they expect an Apple quality user experience.

I'm up for good power, less heat, better battery life, more RAM, more SSD too, but am willing to wait for Apple to "get it right".
You make it sound like Apple can't design a computer in the same time many other vendors can.
 

jimboutilier

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2008
647
42
Denver
You make it sound like Apple can't design a computer in the same time many other vendors can.

That is indeed my opinion - with a slight qualification. While design is only part of the rollout process I would say that Apple can not and does not want to use the shorter cycles used by most PC manufacturers. Longer product cycles are required provide the superior overall user experience and satisfaction ratings Apple differentiates itself with.

Hence my vehement objection to those who would visit the spec wars from PC land on Apple and then wonder why they started having a similar user experience.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
That is indeed my opinion - with a slight qualification. While design is only part of the rollout process I would say that Apple can not and does not want to use the shorter cycles used by most PC manufacturers. Longer product cycles are required provide the superior overall user experience and satisfaction ratings Apple differentiates itself with.
Yet many other vendors didn't have any problems switching over to Clarksfield and Arrandale quickly.
 

zedsdead

macrumors 68040
Jun 20, 2007
3,438
1,252
The macbook air is a matte screen, is it not? or is it just non glass glossy like the macbook...

It is glossy. It does not have the second coating of glass the iMac's and Macbook Pro's have (hence the term, "glassy screen").
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
All I can say is good riddance to those that want to go back to PC's because Apple doesn't have the bleeding edge hardware and ultra fast release cycles from the spec wars.

I'll take a reliable, stable, fast machine over a temperamental, flakey, spec demon any day. I prefer to work productively over having bragging rights to the latest high spec hardware.

You seem to be under the impression thats its the specs of the components that make a good machine and that its the cost of the raw materials that make up the cost of the machine.

There is this thing called R&D, that is responsible for the many features of both Apple hardware and Software that account for a lot of innovation and desirability. There is this thing called design that makes those "absolutely worthless" MBP's benchmark faster than most of the competition with far better "specs" even under Windows. There is this thing called a release pipeline that allows the systems to be reliable and well supported. There is this thing called support by onshore, knowledgeable techs that can actually help people with their issues. These are the reasons most of us love Apple products so much and a large part of why they cost what they cost.

Its not hardware specs that make MACs popular and its not hardware specs of software feature lists that make MAC owners happier than any other brand. Its the whole user experience. And nothing would more surely destroy that that than speedy release cycles with poorly matched bleeding edge high spec components and limited testing and support so common in the PC world.

Think about what you are asking for.

No, I have to disagree with you. I think the MBP is incredibly inferior to most professional grade PC notebooks. In addition, Windows 7 is rock solid, and extremely close in stability to OS X (especially Snow leopard).

If Apple wants to keep us years behind the specs in consumer models so we can all feel "safe and stable" that's one thing. However, it's completely different to develop a professional model that focuses on how thin and shiny it is rather than a component makeup that would benefit users.

ASK MOST PROFESSIONALS. Real professionals would tell you they would rather their MBP be an extra 1/4 inch thick and contain updated components! I am not saying the MBA needs a dedicated graphics card by ATI with 1 GB of dedicated memory, but we're talking about the MBP NOW!

I really enjoy OS X, but when I was "stuck" on Windows 7 I actually felt like the experience was incredibly similar and better in some respects. I think it's fair to expect hardware components that are relevant from Apple.

The Apple tax does exist and it comes in the way of outdated and inferior components at twice the price of PCs with twice the quality of components.

I love my MBA. I know that it was ahead of the curve when it was released in October 2008 with its component makeup, but it's quickly moving behind the curve. I really hope we get an update soon.

Stability is not just with OS X, it's also available from many PCs with Windows 7. In addition, the application compatibility is far superior on Windows 7. We all compromise considerably to use OS X. We all compromise in paying more for components that are worth less. We all compromise in not being able to run apps that are available on Windows. We all compromise in performance to be stuck with 2 GB of RAM when there are comparable ultraportables that accept up to 8 GB RAM. We all compromise in display quality on the MBA. We all compromise in battery performance and by not having the ability to swap our battery. We all compromise considerably to use our MBAs... it's reality.
 

jimboutilier

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2008
647
42
Denver
Yet many other vendors didn't have any problems switching over to Clarksfield and Arrandale quickly.

No doubt a number of PC vendors were able to quickly design and manufacture a new motherboard that works ok. Someone was able to make drivers that work ok. Someone was able to procure sets of parts from some set of manufacturers for some relatively small number of units to be able to manufacture them and bring them to market fast. Support folks may have some documentation in whats in this batch and may have some inkling if the common problems with this batch.

But is this set of motherboards optimal - no. Future sets, including Apples will perform better. Are these early drivers optimal (let alone stable) - NO, again future drivers will be faster and more stable - including Apple's. It this batch of machines the same as the next batch - NO, and will this batch have the same issues as the next batch NO, and will support be able to deliver a good quality support experience most of the time on these small ever changing batches - NO.

Its just a difference in philosophy. The folks at Apple are not stupid or slow any more than the PC folks are incompetent but fast. The different drivers result in different timelines and different outcomes.

Apple differentiates based on the whole user experience not on big feature lists or leading edge specs. That emphasis costs more and is harder to sell. One of the reasons Apple has a relatively small market share.

Not to beat a dead analogy, but you will always have less Lexus, Acura and Infinity drivers out there than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan drivers. Some will argue that the premium brand are not really and better and they are just over priced, and the Premium drivers will be happy with their "overpriced" user experience. Some will even Argue that their Dodge Neon RT has better specs than that Mercedes AMG CLK and those Mercedes owners just most be crazy. And hey' Mercedes, why can't you have more models and why can't they be cheaper, and why can't they have the specs of my great Neon RT? Yeah, to each their own.
 

jimboutilier

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2008
647
42
Denver
No, I have to disagree with you. I think the MBP is incredibly inferior to most professional grade PC notebooks. In addition, Windows 7 is rock solid, and extremely close in stability to OS X (especially Snow leopard).

If Apple wants to keep us years behind the specs in consumer models so we can all feel "safe and stable" that's one thing. However, it's completely different to develop a professional model that focuses on how thin and shiny it is rather than a component makeup that would benefit users.

ASK MOST PROFESSIONALS. Real professionals would tell you they would rather their MBP be an extra 1/4 inch thick and contain updated components! I am not saying the MBA needs a dedicated graphics card by ATI with 1 GB of dedicated memory, but we're talking about the MBP NOW!

I really enjoy OS X, but when I was "stuck" on Windows 7 I actually felt like the experience was incredibly similar and better in some respects. I think it's fair to expect hardware components that are relevant from Apple.

The Apple tax does exist and it comes in the way of outdated and inferior components at twice the price of PCs with twice the quality of components.

I love my MBA. I know that it was ahead of the curve when it was released in October 2008 with its component makeup, but it's quickly moving behind the curve. I really hope we get an update soon.

Stability is not just with OS X, it's also available from many PCs with Windows 7. In addition, the application compatibility is far superior on Windows 7. We all compromise considerably to use OS X. We all compromise in paying more for components that are worth less. We all compromise in not being able to run apps that are available on Windows. We all compromise in performance to be stuck with 2 GB of RAM when there are comparable ultraportables that accept up to 8 GB RAM. We all compromise in display quality on the MBA. We all compromise in battery performance and by not having the ability to swap our battery. We all compromise considerably to use our MBAs... it's reality.

If you are talking about specs and feature lists I agree that MACs can be anywhere from several months to close to a year behind the latest PC's (depending on where things are in Apple's refresh cycle). I'm sure this year MAC's will get the latest generation of components - but months behind many PC's and early next year Apple will appear to be a whole generation behind as new PC's are released with 2011 generation components.

I can even agree that the thinness of Apple products while very attractive, makes heat a problem and limits the power of components, the number of features and the number of ports.

Your ASK MOST PROFESSIONALS comment is a bit non sequitur. MBP owners are very happy as are most other MAC owners - Apple consistently gets higher ownership satisfaction than any other brand. So either most professionals don't buy MBP's or your opinion is incorrect. I'm a "professional" Been in IT for my whole life (and I'm 47). Have undergrad and grad degrees in Engineering, Computer Science, and Business. Make my living as a consultant making well over 6 figures. I owned a MBP and loved it. I loved all my MACs in fact.

No one is forcing you to buy or use a MAC. You like Win7 or PC's better because they have many features and better specs and are cheaper - switch back. Whats keeping you here? You constantly pontificate about how terrible these MACs are and why can't Apple do this and why can't Apple do that, and how yet another stupid decision by Apple is going to kill them. Yet MAC market share is growing and the vast majority of MAC users are very happy, and indeed here you are - a MAC user.

There in lies the rub. Us mac users put up with daily compatibility struggles, small model selections, long product cycles, modest power and feature lists, high prices etc. But that hard to quantify and codify and "sell" user experience hooks you.

Us happy MAC users know why were are hooked and what it takes to deliver that wonderful bait that keeps us here. Clearly some of us are unhappy because we want the best of both worlds and don't understand why we can't
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
No doubt a number of PC vendors were able to quickly design and manufacture a new motherboard that works ok. Someone was able to make drivers that work ok. Someone was able to procure sets of parts from some set of manufacturers for some relatively small number of units to be able to manufacture them and bring them to market fast. Support folks may have some documentation in whats in this batch and may have some inkling if the common problems with this batch.

But is this set of motherboards optimal - no. Future sets, including Apples will perform better. Are these early drivers optimal (let alone stable) - NO, again future drivers will be faster and more stable - including Apple's. It this batch of machines the same as the next batch - NO, and will this batch have the same issues as the next batch NO, and will support be able to deliver a good quality support experience most of the time on these small ever changing batches - NO.

Its just a difference in philosophy. The folks at Apple are not stupid or slow any more than the PC folks are incompetent but fast. The different drivers result in different timelines and different outcomes.

Apple differentiates based on the whole user experience not on big feature lists or leading edge specs. That emphasis costs more and is harder to sell. One of the reasons Apple has a relatively small market share.

Not to beat a dead analogy, but you will always have less Lexus, Acura and Infinity drivers out there than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan drivers. Some will argue that the premium brand are not really and better and they are just over priced, and the Premium drivers will be happy with their "overpriced" user experience. Some will even Argue that their Dodge Neon RT has better specs than that Mercedes AMG CLK and those Mercedes owners just most be crazy. And hey' Mercedes, why can't you have more models and why can't they be cheaper, and why can't they have the specs of my great Neon RT? Yeah, to each their own.

First, I normally agree with most of what you say, and I enjoy your posts. Right now, I think you're being too big of a fan to be realistic, open, and truthful about how much you're paying to compromise. Make no mistake about it, your safety and stability with beautiful user interface is coming at a HUGE cost in performance and capabilities.

Actually, a good number of people will tell you that Apple is one of the worst at writing drivers. Apple uses such a limited number of components across all models so it doesn't have to worry about writing many drivers. The philosophy works great on paper, but it has been the leading factor of Macs being stuck on the same components for years. Then 9400m (introduced October 2008) is a great example. It's a nice way to run certain systems, but Apple has taken it overboard because they don't want to have to write another driver. It's in every Mac product except the Mac Pro... and if Apple had its way it would be there too!

I wish OS X were everything grand, as it could be really great. However, Apple's model is quickly going mainstream consumer and it leaves the professional much to be desired. Be realistic about what OS X is and isn't. Is it stable, yes. Why is it stable, Apple uses few components and allows almost no customization so it doesn't have to write new drivers or support them. In fact, some of Windows biggest problems are having to be compatible with tens of thousands of components from many hundreds of suppliers. When Windows has quality written drivers, like mainstream suppliers include, it's something amazing. Realize that you have a poor selection with the Mac to get around this... and if you were selective about the PC you purchase, ensuring it uses top components, you would realize that Windows 7 is just as stable and provides better performance because it can be designed to use far superior components.

OS X is terrible at certain other things like Flash is horrible and Quicktime is inefficient. In fact, any video playback is worthless on OS X versus Windows. Apple is going so cheap on components that it cannot even provide dedicated graphics RAM. Apple gets its cake and can eat it too; meaning Apple charges the highest prices and one would assume it means its Macs get top tier components, but Apple actually uses low end (mid-line) components.

Apple focuses on the inexpensive "extras" to sell you the grand system called the Mac. Think about the aluminum case... $5 in raw material costs, backlit keyboard... $1 in LED bulbs, shiny display... $2 in sand (glass), glass buttonless trackpad... $2 in sand (glass). Apple is KING at this. It works on making its products look amazing to the consumer. It ensures that it has all of the extras the PCs don't have, yet it makes us believe we NEED these things for computing. A backlit keyboard isn't necessary for most, but we are convinced we NEED it to function. Through all of this, the professionals are dearly paying the price and getting beautiful Macs that aren't half as capable as their PC counterparts.

Look, you have to admit that Apple, the Mac, and OS X is a huge compromise in performance and selection to get the "safety" you so desire. Its user interface and stability come at a huge price in actual costs, and one needs to buy a Mac right when it's released to get the best value. Otherwise people are getting seven month old technology at seven month ago pricing. With PCs, they become irrelevant after three months and are updated with new components. That means if you don't buy right when Apple releases something, you have to wait until it's updated to get a better value. Apple doesn't reduce the price, because most CONSUMERS, LIKE YOU, don't care about the component makeup being old and inferior... they want "stability" and beauty. That mindset you have is exactly what Apple wants you to have!

I love the Mac, but I know that the OS/user interface comes at a huge cost. I also can fairly asses Windows 7 vs. OS X. In fact, my MBA runs Windows 7 great, perhaps even better than OS X.

It's one thing to enjoy the Mac, but you still should understand the loss/compromises you make using it. If you're just a "consumer" all that really matters is that it works... and that's where you are. But understand the argument you're making before you discount other alternative arguments. In fact, I believe that the majority of professionals would be much better off on Windows 7, and I believe that most consumers would be much better off on the Mac. Apple took an alternative route (it started with the media/graphics/entertainment professionals) and it's now becoming apparent to Apple that its products are for CONSUMERS and NOT professionals. Most professionals would agree with this if they really thought about both sides of the argument.
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
...Your ASK MOST PROFESSIONALS comment is a bit non sequitur. MBP owners are very happy as are most other MAC owners - Apple consistently gets higher ownership satisfaction than any other brand. So either most professionals don't buy MBP's or your opinion is incorrect. I'm a "professional" Been in IT for my whole life (and I'm 47). Have undergrad and grad degrees in Engineering, Computer Science, and Business. Make my living as a consultant making well over 6 figures. I owned a MBP and loved it. I loved all my MACs in fact.

No one is forcing you to buy or use a MAC. You like Win7 or PC's better because they have many features and better specs and are cheaper - switch back. Whats keeping you here? You constantly pontificate about how terrible these MACs are and why can't Apple do this and why can't Apple do that, and how yet another stupid decision by Apple is going to kill them. Yet MAC market share is growing and the vast majority of MAC users are very happy, and indeed here you are - a MAC user.

There in lies the rub. Us mac users put up with daily compatibility struggles, small model selections, long product cycles, modest power and feature lists, high prices etc. But that hard to quantify and codify and "sell" user experience hooks you.

Us happy MAC users know why were are hooked and what it takes to deliver that wonderful bait that keeps us here. Clearly some of us are unhappy because we want the best of both worlds and don't understand why we can't

First, when we talk professional, let's make certain we're talking about the same "professional." I am talking the graphics professional/engineer/mathematician/CAD designer that needs a professional grade computer to perform his/her current work. The person making a movie, creating CGI, doing 3D modeling/design, doing advanced engineering models, advanced mathematical modeling and etc - that's the professional I am considering.

Most MBP owners ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS. That's where your argument is terribly flawed. Most true "professionals" are NOT using the MBP for their daily workload. If they truly need a "professional-grade" computer, they're using a Mac Pro, Linux, or PC. Now, there are other "professionals" using the MBP that don't really need a "professional workstation-quality" computer. Someone that works on Photoshop could use an MBP, or someone that designs websites (heck that can be done on the MBA).

Now, moving on to your "professional" experience. I am happy for you that you love being a consultant making your six figures. I am happy for you that you earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees. Did you ever think that perhaps you aren't considering myself and my experiences and education before making that your argument? In fact, our background/history/work experience is very similar. If you want a list of my background, experience, degrees, client list, or etc for "proof" shoot me a PM, and I will be happy to share. And while I too am a professional, I don't need a professional-grade computer for my daily workload and apparently neither do you.

I know some of my clients and colleagues are professionals that do need professional-grade computers... most don't use MBPs, some use Mac Pros, some use Linux/Unix boxes, and MOST use PCs. Most that use notebooks, are using professional grade PC notebooks and their workload couldn't be completed on an MBP - as it's simply not capable. Others (in the minority) do use MBPs and I even know an engineer that does 90% of his work on an MBA.

I don't like Windows 7 more. I prefer using OS X, but I can be honest about what Windows was in the past, what gave it a bad rap, and what Windows is now. I can also be honest about what the Mac is and isn't. I love my MBA, and I will continue to sucker in to buy the Mac "experience" as long as I love the notebook design, user interface, have application compatibility, and it's stable and secure for my work. Fortunately for me, I am a BUSINESS professional, and I can do nearly all of my work on an MBA. I love the design of the MBA. I am as big of an MBA fan as there can possibly be, but I also understand the quality and component makeup of alternative ultraportables on the market. Based on the competitors, I sure hope the MBA gets an update soon.

Don't think that I personally want to use a Windows PC just because I know its advantages. Don't think that I cannot want a Mac just because I know its weaknesses. It's one thing to want a certain product, but it's something entirely different to NEED a certain product. Most of us don't NEED a Mac, we just prefer it.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
No doubt a number of PC vendors were able to quickly design and manufacture a new motherboard that works ok. Someone was able to make drivers that work ok. Someone was able to procure sets of parts from some set of manufacturers for some relatively small number of units to be able to manufacture them and bring them to market fast. Support folks may have some documentation in whats in this batch and may have some inkling if the common problems with this batch.

But is this set of motherboards optimal - no. Future sets, including Apples will perform better. Are these early drivers optimal (let alone stable) - NO, again future drivers will be faster and more stable - including Apple's. It this batch of machines the same as the next batch - NO, and will this batch have the same issues as the next batch NO, and will support be able to deliver a good quality support experience most of the time on these small ever changing batches - NO.

Its just a difference in philosophy. The folks at Apple are not stupid or slow any more than the PC folks are incompetent but fast. The different drivers result in different timelines and different outcomes.

Apple differentiates based on the whole user experience not on big feature lists or leading edge specs. That emphasis costs more and is harder to sell. One of the reasons Apple has a relatively small market share.
I'll just take that as Apple being lazy then.
 

Hollytree

macrumors newbie
Jan 14, 2010
2
0
I'll just take that as Apple being lazy then.

I agree.

But unfortunately because of the reliability factor, apple will still probably get more of my money soon bc I plan on getting the next rev of the mba to replace my 2002 ibook (yes, it's practically a dinosaur, but it still works... as opposed to my old gateway laptop which crashed every 2 minutes).
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
I agree.

But unfortunately because of the reliability factor, apple will still probably get more of my money soon bc I plan on getting the next rev of the mba to replace my 2002 ibook (yes, it's practically a dinosaur, but it still works... as opposed to my old gateway laptop which crashed every 2 minutes).

If you buy a Mac, buy it because it's the user interface that you want. Or buy a Mac because you like that it makes you feel cool. Or buy it because you like the experience or how it feels in your hands. Or buy it because you want it to "just work" with a limited number of peripherals and applications (meaning you don't want to install the printer driver yourself). Or buy it because you really like all of the iLife programs. Or buy it because applications you really need can only run on OS X. Or buy it because you want it to work with all of the other Macs in your house. Or maybe, simply, buy a Mac because it's FUN!

If you just want reliable, you can get that from plenty of PC notebooks with far superior component makeup at a HUGELY DISCOUNTED PRICE. However, if you're used to a 2002 iBook, anything current is going to feel like a speed demon. Consider this though... Gateway was NEVER reliable. For many years Dell was considered the most reliable. The reason Dell was so good is it used quality components that had well written drivers that worked in Windows. Windows 7 has changed the game. PC notebooks with quality components are out there, and they're just as reliable as a Mac.

When you buy your new Mac, buy it because it's what you really want to use for all of your computing needs. Don't buy it because it's more reliable because it's not.

I hope you and I both get to (and still want to) buy the "next" MBA really soon! Let's hope the MBA gets really great updates with a Core i7 CPU, an ATI graphics card, 4 GB RAM, a 256 GB SSD, USB 3.0, a glass trackpad, and a display that is 3D, HD, or OLED.

However the main reason I will buy the MBA is because it's FUN! Using the MBA as a primary computer is simply FUN! That's it! That's its primary feature! It's a combination of components, a beautiful design, and a user interface that makes it fun.
 

Hollytree

macrumors newbie
Jan 14, 2010
2
0
If you buy a Mac, buy it because it's the user interface that you want. Or buy a Mac because you like that it makes you feel cool. Or buy it because you like the experience or how it feels in your hands. Or buy it because you want it to "just work" with a limited number of peripherals and applications (meaning you don't want to install the printer driver yourself). Or buy it because you really like all of the iLife programs. Or buy it because applications you really need can only run on OS X. Or buy it because you want it to work with all of the other Macs in your house. Or maybe, simply, buy a Mac because it's FUN!

If you just want reliable, you can get that from plenty of PC notebooks with far superior component makeup at a HUGELY DISCOUNTED PRICE. However, if you're used to a 2002 iBook, anything current is going to feel like a speed demon. Consider this though... Gateway was NEVER reliable. For many years Dell was considered the most reliable. The reason Dell was so good is it used quality components that had well written drivers that worked in Windows. Windows 7 has changed the game. PC notebooks with quality components are out there, and they're just as reliable as a Mac.

When you buy your new Mac, buy it because it's what you really want to use for all of your computing needs. Don't buy it because it's more reliable because it's not.

I hope you and I both get to (and still want to) buy the "next" MBA really soon! Let's hope the MBA gets really great updates with a Core i7 CPU, an ATI graphics card, 4 GB RAM, a 256 GB SSD, USB 3.0, a glass trackpad, and a display that is 3D, HD, or OLED.

However the main reason I will buy the MBA is because it's FUN! Using the MBA as a primary computer is simply FUN! That's it! That's its primary feature! It's a combination of components, a beautiful design, and a user interface that makes it fun.

Thank you Scottsdale :) I've always enjoyed reading your posts bc they are thoughtful & informative. (I've been reading these forums for quite a while tho I just joined as a member today.)

Yeah, I can't lie - the coolness factor def gets me... I can't wait for the new mba, yay 2010!
 

jimboutilier

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2008
647
42
Denver
First, I normally agree with most of what you say, and I enjoy your posts. Right now, I think you're being too big of a fan to be realistic, open, and truthful about how much you're paying to compromise. Make no mistake about it, your safety and stability with beautiful user interface is coming at a HUGE cost in performance and capabilities.

Actually, a good number of people will tell you that Apple is one of the worst at writing drivers. Apple uses such a limited number of components across all models so it doesn't have to worry about writing many drivers. The philosophy works great on paper, but it has been the leading factor of Macs being stuck on the same components for years. Then 9400m (introduced October 2008) is a great example. It's a nice way to run certain systems, but Apple has taken it overboard because they don't want to have to write another driver. It's in every Mac product except the Mac Pro... and if Apple had its way it would be there too!

I wish OS X were everything grand, as it could be really great. However, Apple's model is quickly going mainstream consumer and it leaves the professional much to be desired. Be realistic about what OS X is and isn't. Is it stable, yes. Why is it stable, Apple uses few components and allows almost no customization so it doesn't have to write new drivers or support them. In fact, some of Windows biggest problems are having to be compatible with tens of thousands of components from many hundreds of suppliers. When Windows has quality written drivers, like mainstream suppliers include, it's something amazing. Realize that you have a poor selection with the Mac to get around this... and if you were selective about the PC you purchase, ensuring it uses top components, you would realize that Windows 7 is just as stable and provides better performance because it can be designed to use far superior components.

OS X is terrible at certain other things like Flash is horrible and Quicktime is inefficient. In fact, any video playback is worthless on OS X versus Windows. Apple is going so cheap on components that it cannot even provide dedicated graphics RAM. Apple gets its cake and can eat it too; meaning Apple charges the highest prices and one would assume it means its Macs get top tier components, but Apple actually uses low end (mid-line) components.

Apple focuses on the inexpensive "extras" to sell you the grand system called the Mac. Think about the aluminum case... $5 in raw material costs, backlit keyboard... $1 in LED bulbs, shiny display... $2 in sand (glass), glass buttonless trackpad... $2 in sand (glass). Apple is KING at this. It works on making its products look amazing to the consumer. It ensures that it has all of the extras the PCs don't have, yet it makes us believe we NEED these things for computing. A backlit keyboard isn't necessary for most, but we are convinced we NEED it to function. Through all of this, the professionals are dearly paying the price and getting beautiful Macs that aren't half as capable as their PC counterparts.

Look, you have to admit that Apple, the Mac, and OS X is a huge compromise in performance and selection to get the "safety" you so desire. Its user interface and stability come at a huge price in actual costs, and one needs to buy a Mac right when it's released to get the best value. Otherwise people are getting seven month old technology at seven month ago pricing. With PCs, they become irrelevant after three months and are updated with new components. That means if you don't buy right when Apple releases something, you have to wait until it's updated to get a better value. Apple doesn't reduce the price, because most CONSUMERS, LIKE YOU, don't care about the component makeup being old and inferior... they want "stability" and beauty. That mindset you have is exactly what Apple wants you to have!

I love the Mac, but I know that the OS/user interface comes at a huge cost. I also can fairly asses Windows 7 vs. OS X. In fact, my MBA runs Windows 7 great, perhaps even better than OS X.

It's one thing to enjoy the Mac, but you still should understand the loss/compromises you make using it. If you're just a "consumer" all that really matters is that it works... and that's where you are. But understand the argument you're making before you discount other alternative arguments. In fact, I believe that the majority of professionals would be much better off on Windows 7, and I believe that most consumers would be much better off on the Mac. Apple took an alternative route (it started with the media/graphics/entertainment professionals) and it's now becoming apparent to Apple that its products are for CONSUMERS and NOT professionals. Most professionals would agree with this if they really thought about both sides of the argument.

While we might debate how large the performance gap is, I agree there IS one. I would not agree that Apple writes the worst drivers but I would agree they like to keep hardware as consistent as possible so they avoid changing them as much as possible (not because they suck but because they want the stability and support experience and it take a long time to do a good job). As to the "quality" of Windows drivers, I'll let the blue screens, crashes, hangs, freezes, etc speak for themselves - not saying they are all bad but saying there is a LOT of them and many are bad cause people don't take the time to do better.

Expensive machining operations, custom keyboards and trackpads not used by any other manufactures have very real costs and putting it down to the cost of Aluminum or Led's or Sand is more than a bit disingenuous. Human bodies have about a dollar or raw materials in them but there is a lot of cost to producing each adult one ;-)

And sorry if you thought I was dismissing your background on the PROFESSIONAL thing. I was merely pointing out that I fell into the typical definition of professional and am very happy with the MBP. Not trying to elevate my opinions or devalue others. Maybe power user or something might be better to use than professionals because many professionals (Dr's LAwer's Engineers, IT professionals too) could be well served by a MBP. Someone doing CGI - not so much I agree.

Anyway, enough of this for me on this thread. I accept the comprises Apple makes to give me the user experience they do -and its not safety - its productivity. MACs are not perfect for sure and many improvements could be made without compromising that user experience.

Its just there is not any current way to make many of the major changes people are asking for in such a short period of time and keep that user experience so I object to them pushing in that direction. I left the PC platform for those reasons, am MUCH happier here, and don't want to go back.

I wish you a great year Scottsdale and look forward to reading your posts. I hope Apple finds a way to make both of us happy.
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
I was merely pointing out that I fell into the typical definition of professional and am very happy with the MBP. Not trying to elevate my opinions or devalue others. Maybe power user or something might be better to use than professionals because many professionals (Dr's LAwer's Engineers, IT professionals too) could be well served by a MBP. Someone doing CGI - not so much I agree.

That is where we are different. I know that we might be professionals, but we aren't in need of "professional grade computers." There is a difference. I would consider myself a professional, yet I don't need a professional grade computer to do my work. And most of those who don't need a professional grade computer could just as well be using our beloved MBA. As I said before, most MBP users don't even need a professional grade computer or don't use it as their primary computer.

In fact, most professionals aren't the actual intended "professionals" for a professional grade computer. Doctors, attorneys, and accountants are commonly referred to as "professionals," but most of us would agree that they don't even need MacBook Pros or "professional grade computers" to do complete their daily computing workload. Our little MBAs can do Excel and Word.

My point is that the MBP isn't really even a professional grade computer; the Mac Pro is a professional grade computer. Apple has chosen the term MacBook "Pro" as more of a marketing term than a designation for professionals who need a professional grade computer. There are plenty of PC notebook options that are professional grade computers. I once owned a Dell Precision Workstation notebook - one amazing computer. Most of those who need a professional grade notebook would ABSOLUTELY LOVE for the MBP to have professional grade components... but Steve Jobs is more worried that it look pretty, be less than an inch thick, and be super glossy!

... and thus Apple has forgotten about the professionals and is focusing on the consumers with the MBP.

I am now done writing about this too...
 

lucifiel

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2009
982
2
In your basement
... and thus Apple has forgotten about the professionals and is focusing on the consumers with the MBP.

probably because there are more consumers out there. and consumers are stupid. and stupid people are easy to exploit. and exploitation is a better business model than catering to people who know what they're talking about and actually having to present the goods.

that said, the MBA will never be marketted at "professionals" in your definition. and i don't think it ever should.

The MBP may have started off as marketted to "professionals", but it's pretty much a shiny consumer grade laptop. Nothing wrong with that per se.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
probably because there are more consumers out there. and consumers are stupid. and stupid people are easy to exploit. and exploitation is a better business model than catering to people who know what they're talking about and actually having to present the goods.

that said, the MBA will never be marketted at "professionals" in your definition. and i don't think it ever should.

The MBP may have started off as marketted to "professionals", but it's pretty much a shiny consumer grade laptop. Nothing wrong with that per se.
It's nice to know we can admit that. :D

Apple doesn't even cater to the prosumer anymore either. I've narrowed it down to sometime in 2006. It's somewhat sad.
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
Apple doesn't even cater to the prosumer anymore either. I've narrowed it down to sometime in 2006. It's somewhat sad.

Agreed! I would say you're really close on the 2006 timing too. Ironically, it was just after it went from PowerBook to MacBook "Pro," that Apple quit using quality components and focused on going thin, lightweight, and super shiny.

Apple really is KING at all of the small extras (backlit KB, glass trackpad, glass covered display, and etc) that it touts those as the reasons people NEED to "upgrade" to a Mac; in reality those components cost Apple very little in terms of real costs.

The MBP has had its downs, mostly. Every release seems to be that much further behind... Even a prosumer has to be seriously willing to compromise to go with an MBP over a PC notebook at half the price with twice the component power. I definitely agree with you all the way there.

We all are huge fans to be willing to do what we do every time we hand Apple money for a new Mac.

In all honesty though, Apple is much much better at providing consumer-grade electronics. The iPod and iPhone have been great, but I think the iPod tablet is going to be the true revolutionary device that changes EVERYTHING.

I don't know if it's smart to abandon its customer base that got them to this point over 20+ years as a computer company. I know they haven't completely abandoned the professional computer user, but the downhill slide has gone pretty quick.
 

bloodycape

macrumors 65816
Jun 18, 2005
1,373
0
California
Well I will say the first gen MBP was a bit lacking(15in specifically) as it lacks firewire 800 port and dual layer dvd burner of the 15in Powerbook. However, I think it went up the pro charts for a while after the first gen, Apple did bring back firewire 800 and dual layer dvd on the 15in. Now after that is where I would agree again that it started to move away from the Pro market.
 

brendu

Cancelled
Apr 23, 2009
2,472
2,703
im not so sure apple charges twice as much for half as much computing power... I just configured a 17" Dell precision workstation and a 17"MBP with all the same specs 3.06Ghz C2D, 4GB (2x2)Ram, 500GB 7200 HDD, both have LED backlight screens, and backlight keyboards, the only difference being (and I will concede that apple is WAY behind on this front) is the graphics. Apple having the 512MB descrete option and the Dell having the 1GB descrete option...

but back to the apple being twice the cost is bull. The dell came to $4004 and the macbook came to $2849....

So apple might not use the newest and nicest cards, but No they do not charge DOUBLE what comparably equipped PC's cost...


The entry level macbook, thats a whole different story...
 
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