Did writer steal or not? You choose!

[CorvusCamenarum]

Answer the first: The passages I heard on the radio yesterday were virtually word-for-word identical.

Answer the second: I don't believe she claimed never to have read the other book.

I usually do listen to ATC whenever possible; it's a great program. I spent the past couple days down at the beach, though, and rural south Alabama isn't well known for it's stellar radio reception. All I had to go on was the article.

 

[JFreak]

What's really wild about this story is the amount of money (a half-million dollars) this young woman was advanced for writing a book, having never written one before. Then it turns out parts were plagiarized? Imagine my shock and surprise.

Exactly. And imagine the incompetence of the company's publishing editor! There's a reason nothing gets published before the material has been edited.

There are a lot of people involved before the book is sold. Many people get to read the material, and someone should have known what the novice writer has loved to read before; the article stated that she had read the plagiarized books multiple times, and that kind of things are asked for a reason.

How can I say this is mostly company's fault, you might ask? Well, my wife is a publishing editor. Plagiarism should be found out behind the closed curtains.

 

[madoka]

Everyone makes mistakes, intentionally or unintentionally. That doesn't make them deserve anything but the experience to learn from it. Who are we to judge that, we don't even have all the details.

Honest Judge, killing all those children was a mistake and I've learned from this experience.

Damn, you sound like what's wrong with America. Sometimes it's time to take personal responsibility for your actions. It's patently obvious she plagarized that other book - that subconscious stuff is BS. In my school, when some student got caught cheating, there was talk of explusion. Now, all the pansies out there want to give everyone extra chances to learn from their mistakes.

Back in my senior year in high school, I had a teacher who had it out for me for showing him up in class once. I forgot to do the proper citation for ONE fact on my term paper and he failed me. I ended up going from the highest grade in the class to the lowest off that one paper. It also blew my chance of winning top student in the school for that year - an award I won for two years straight prior. He pointed it I was technically cheating for not giving the proper citation and told me I was lucky I wasn't kicked out of school. I didn't whine about it, make excuses, or sue the school. I realized I technically screwed up and never did it again.

Viswanathan consciously cheated and got caught. She's continuing her shame by denying what really happened. No one makes "subconscious mistakes" to that level of detail.

There are a lot of people involved before the book is sold. Many people get to read the material, and someone should have known what the novice writer has loved to read before; the article stated that she had read the plagiarized books multiple times, and that kind of things are asked for a reason.

How can I say this is mostly company's fault, you might ask? Well, my wife is a publishing editor. Plagiarism should be found out behind the closed curtains.

I respectfully disagree. If Viswanathan set out to plagarize (which I believe she did), you can't expect the editors to have been familiar with every book in the known universe to compare it against. What did you expect her to do? Give a list of all her favorite books to the editors so they could check every one of them for plagarism? Indeed, prior to this discovery, she was asked in a recent interview with The Star-Ledger in Newark, N.J. about books that might have influenced her novel. “Nothing I read gave me the inspiration,” she responded. Now all of a sudden, she's this huge fan of McCafferty when it's discovered she ripped off more than FORTY passages from McCafferty.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12477624/

I used to be editorial director at a publishing company. There's no way we had that sort of manpower or resources to do that. Put the responsibilty where it belongs - with the person who tried to cheat the system.

I chalk it up to the sub-conscious. There is just no way she would do this intentionally and think she could get away with it. Not to mention the publishers thinking the same. Honest mistake. She apologized and they said they are going to change the passages.

I guess you never heard of a book called A Million Little Pieces? If Frey could try to cheat the system, why can't a 17 year old novice?

Check the comparisons. One or two similarities and maybe it's the subconscious. 40+ times and that means your just copying wholesale. It's obvious she plagiarized from the other book and is now in full excuse mode which I find more disgusting. Sad thing is, there are going to be a bunch of well intentioned and naive idiots that believe her BS of how much she "internalized" another person's exact words, characters, settings, descriptions, etc.

 

[JFreak]

you can't expect the editors to have been familiar with every book in the known universe to compare it against

Well, that's obvious. That's also the reason why they ask about favourite writers during interviews _before_ they sign any contracts. Editors should know about the potential "influences" and notice when there are dozens of references to somebody.

I know as a musician when a band sounds "like somebody else" and when it's original, fresh and new. It is a part of my competence to notice these kinds of things; just the same way professional editors know the texts they read. You learn what you do and you master what you have done a long time.

Put the responsibilty where it belongs - with the person who tried to cheat the system.

Of course. But it's just as bad to the publisher's reputation as it is to the cheater, so failing to notice the cheat is a failure by the publishing editor. Maybe because they were rushing a release, or maybe because they were understaffed - who knows. But publishing company has a reputation THEY must take care of and not just assume nobody plagiarizes. When a bad writer meets a bad company, these things can happen.

 

[madoka]

Of course. But it's just as bad to the publisher's reputation as it is to the cheater, so failing to notice the cheat is a failure by the publishing editor. Maybe because they were rushing a release, or maybe because they were understaffed - who knows. But publishing company has a reputation THEY must take care of and not just assume nobody plagiarizes. When a bad writer meets a bad company, these things can happen.

Yeah but she actively said that there were NO other influences prior to this discovery. If she's lied to the press, she probably lied in any pre-contract interviews. So how are they supposed to possibly find out that she was plagiarizing.

Again, I don't see how the publishing company could have know so I don't fault them for that. However, trying to cover their asses by selling her story of subconscious internalization is wrong.

 

[princealfie]

That's why I stopped reading fiction from today a long time ago and began to read a lot more graphic novels!!!

 

[Diatribe]

Honest Judge, killing all those children was a mistake and I've learned from this experience.

You're not seriously comparing plagiarism with killing people are you?

Damn, you sound like what's wrong with America. Sometimes it's time to take personal responsibility for your actions.

If she did, I completely agree with you. But you know, always jumping on the first one to make a mistake and tearing them apart doesn't make that particularly easy for them. The thing wrong with America or Western society in general is that wer'e always looking for someone to blame not to solve the actual problem.

Viswanathan consciously cheated and got caught.

And you know that for sure how?

It's unfortunate, and it isn't fair to have your career destroyed by one mistake. I don't think anybody believes that she deserves to have her career destroyed. But, the fact is that she plagiarized. It's wrong, it's stupid, and if she really loves that author, she should have known what she was doing.

If LeBron had taken steroids by accident, I would be just as upset. And yes signing him was a brilliant move, but he he had demonstrated his talent and it was reasonable to expect him to perform at the NBA level. But, for every LeBron (or even anything close to it), how many Kwames are there? That's why the NBA is trying to impose age restrictions.

But look how Kwame is playing right now
But I agree 2 years of college basketball would have been good for him.

Tell that to the next surgeon who is about to open you up ...

You know a surgeon that has saved thousands of lives and makes one mistake, would you want him to never save lives again or do just that?
Sometimes it sucks for the individual when someone screws up but if you learn from it, just let it go. (I'm talking about one mistake here not consistent mistakes)

 

[kiwi-in-uk]

You know a surgeon that has saved thousands of lives and makes one mistake, would you want him to never save lives again or do just that?
Sometimes it sucks for the individual when someone screws up but if you learn from it, just let it go. (I'm talking about one mistake here not consistent mistakes)

A surgeon who has saved 1000 lives and makes one mistake has a 0.1% defect rate.
This girl has a 100% defect rate, and won't admit it.

 

[nbs2]

Couple of things. First, I think that we should clarify that we aren't looking for someone to blame for the plaigerism - we are looking for someone in particular to acknowledge what has happened. There are too many holes in her story (if her fiction is as good as her explanations here, that book must suck) for use to believe her. If I talk all about how I love Roald Dahl now and copy something from Crichton and when I get caught I talk about how I have always loved Crichton - something is going to look fishy. And, it doesn't help that she copied an author that I've (along with most people) never heard of before.

And, when a surgeon makes a huge mistake like this - their careers are often over. I promise you that I will never go to a surgeon that has made a mistake that would be equivalent to hers.

This is one of those moments when I feel ashamed of my Indian background.

 

[Diatribe]

Couple of things. First, I think that we should clarify that we aren't looking for someone to blame for the plaigerism - we are looking for someone in particular to acknowledge what has happened. There are too many holes in her story (if her fiction is as good as her explanations here, that book must suck) for use to believe her. If I talk all about how I love Roald Dahl now and copy something from Crichton and when I get caught I talk about how I have always loved Crichton - something is going to look fishy. And, it doesn't help that she copied an author that I've (along with most people) never heard of before.

And, when a surgeon makes a huge mistake like this - their careers are often over. I promise you that I will never go to a surgeon that has made a mistake that would be equivalent to hers.

This is one of those moments when I feel ashamed of my Indian background.

You know, until the last sentence I could at least see where you're coming from but that is just ridiculous.
Now you're ashamed because someone of your background did something wrong? I guess I should be ashamed being German then.
Repeat after me: Everyone is responsible for their own actions there is no such thing as general blame, guilt or shame.

 

[nbs2]

You know, until the last sentence I could at least see where you're coming from but that is just ridiculous.
Now you're ashamed because someone of your background did something wrong? I guess I should be ashamed being German then.
Repeat after me: Everyone is responsible for their own actions there is no such thing as general blame, guilt or shame.

Perhaps i phrased it wrong. I guess a better way to say it would have been to say that she shames not only herself, but the Indian community. I'm sorry about that. As responsible as people are for their actions, their actions do reflect on those who have much in common (see: Dixie Chicks v. Bush ).

 

[IJ Reilly]

Repeat after me: Everyone is responsible for their own actions there is no such thing as general blame, guilt or shame.

Wait, wait... isn't this exactly what others including myself have been saying all along, only to have you excuse this person's actions with rationales like, "everybody makes mistakes?"

 

[runplaysleeprun]

$500,000 = 2,000 MBP's very scary eh?

I demand you tell me where you are getting 250 dollar MBP's.

 

[nbs2]

I demand you tell me where you are getting 250 dollar MBP's.

Well, he knows a guy, who knows a guy. Actually, you can find out more, you just have to bid on his eBay auction - you can even find out how to get a fully loaded Quad for under 1k. I got the information, and now I'm typing this up on my fancy nee MBP that I got for 250.OK, so I'm at work typing on my POS PC...

 

[Diatribe]

Wait, wait... isn't this exactly what others including myself have been saying all along, only to have you excuse this person's actions with rationales like, "everybody makes mistakes?"

And I have been saying all along that if she did it she should fess up to it and be done with it. I for one won't judge anyone by one mistake. The two things have nothing to do with each other and are separate issues.

 

[madoka]

You're not seriously comparing plagiarism with killing people are you?

Oh, did I not put enough smilies for you? Here's some more:

Or are you the only one capable of sarcasm?

And you know that for sure how?

Did you actually read the passages or do you just like making pointless arguments like your name implies?

For everyone's amusement:

Example #1:
McCafferty’s book, page 7: “Bridget is my age and lives across the street. For the first twelve years of my life, these qualifications were all I needed in a best friend. But that was before Bridget’s braces came off and her boyfriend Burke got on, before Hope and I met in our seventh grade Honors classes.”

Viswanathan’s novel, page 14: “Priscilla was my age and lived two blocks away. For the first fifteen years of my life, those were the only qualifications I needed in a best friend. We had bonded over our mutual fascination with the abacus in a playgroup for gifted kids. But that was before freshman year, when Priscilla’s glasses came off, and the first in a long string of boyfriends came on.”

Example #2:

McCafferty’s book, page 6: “Sabrina was the brainy Angel. Yet another example of how every girl had to be one or the other: Pretty or smart.”

Viswanathan’s novel, page 39: “Moneypenny was the brainy female character. Yet another example of how every girl had to be one or the other: smart or pretty.”

Now add about FORTY+ more of these "similarities" and seriously tell me she didn't plagiarize.

 

[IJ Reilly]

And I have been saying all along that if she did it she should fess up to it and be done with it. I for one won't judge anyone by one mistake. The two things have nothing to do with each other and are separate issues.

And what I'm saying, and others as well, is that they are not separate issues. The facts of the matter don't change based on what she decides to confess or not confess.

 

[princealfie]

Put it this way... if a surgeon deliberately (I mean in this context) commits a medical error, that's different than if it was unintentional... remember, intent is everything!

Of course, T.S. Eliot wrote that "Bad poets borrow, good poets steal." in his lit crit. The Waste Land is awesome use of borrowed quotes in a new context.

But this writer borrowed her fav author' stylings. Parroting I must say.

 

[Doctor Q]

If Viswanathan set out to plagarize (which I believe she did), you can't expect the editors to have been familiar with every book in the known universe to compare it against.

It's all in digital form. Can't the process be automated? If the various major publishers shared a system to let submitted works be checked by a similarity engine against previous works, it could be done routinely before publication.

I'd think software could be made smart enough to flag this close a match, despite slight variations in sentence structure and the use of synonyms. It might not be foolproof, but it would help by catching some of these cases, and the technology would improve over time, while the levels of human error and bad intentions tend to stay the same over time.

 

[Don't panic]

one of the most blatant examples of plagiarism I have ever seen.

The whole thing is made worse by how pitiful the 'cover-up' was.
one can picture perfectly how she first copied the paragraphs and then went on to change or flip a few words thinking "Hehe, this will do! Mwuaahahaha! they'll never catch me!"
Pathetic.

She she should be forced to hand half of her paycheck to her "inspiration", just to make sure that for the second book she double-checks that she has not internalized some other author's work verbatim

 

[thedude110]

It's all in digital form. Can't the process be automated? If the various major publishers shared a system to let submitted works be checked by a similarity engine against previous works, it could be done routinely before publication.

That would kill writing and writers.

Writers plagiarize. It's necessary. It's good.

I mean, thank god Joshua Clover sounds so much like Wallace Stevens.

 

[emw]

Writers plagiarize. It's necessary. It's good.

Hell, yes. We'd lose half of our TV shows and a larger percent of movies if we eliminated plagiarism.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Writers plagiarize. It's necessary. It's good.

Have you ever been plagiarized? I have. Trust me, it's difficult to find any good in it, if it happens to you.

 

[thedude110]

Have you ever been plagiarized? I have. Trust me, it's difficult to find any good in it, if it happens to you.

I have -- today, actually! A fellow teacher was describing a unit plan to a local journalist, and he passed off several of "his" handouts and lessons as "his" own even though they were mine. Yet my reaction is really ... meh.

I've also had portions of poems I've published appropriated and used by others ... but my attitude remains ... meh.

Part of it, I think, is that once I've published something (in a mag or to a friend -- once I've let it go), I feel like it's really not mine anymore. I'm choosing to give it to others for a reason. In part I'm saying "Once I've let it go, how could I claim it's mine?" while also saying "intellectual property doesn't exist if I'm not forced to give the doc. away -- and did I ever own this poem, anyway?" Yes, my tongue is planted partially firmly in the cheek of my instinct. And yes there are plenty of situations where one is compelled to give away proprietary work, and that changes the rules of the game so long as we're capitalists.

Which is why I understand why you, or others, wouldn't appreciate being plagiarized, especially if there are ... fiduciary consequences. Or if you don't like others taking credit for your hard work.

For the record, I do condemn her plagiarism -- stealing other people's crap work and passing it off as your own crap work is wrong in at least two ways. Three if you count the perpetuation of crap. Four if you want 17 year olds to learn how to plagiarize properly.

But in condeming her plagiarism, I maintain that plagiarism simultaneously doesn't exist and is absolutely necessary. I never would have learned to write a poem if I hadn't ripped off Wallace Stevens a thousand times (and published some of those poems). Did I plagiarize Stevens? Not exactly. But I stole the way he structured texts, the way he structured lines, the way he worked images with and against sound, the way he used color ...

Such that: To write is to steal and I'm a proud thief.

And, such that: In plagiarizing this other writer, the 17 year old (who I condemn!) was engaging in imitation -- the way most good writers learn to write (writers, just like everybody else, must be dependent before they can be independent).

 

[IJ Reilly]

We seem to be describing two sides of the same coin.

Sure, writers (and most artists) borrow from each other. But a line does get crossed, and when it is crossed, it no longer counts as being influenced, it can't be chalked up as learning from another, or as a tribute. At some point, it's stealing. And this is true whether or not any financial harm is done.

I can't honestly say that I was harmed by the person who appropriated a very personal and obscure idea I'd published, as his own. But I felt violated just the same, and not a bit annoyed that he liked the idea enough to steal it but not enough to write me a note congratulating me for thinking of it first. There's an overtone of getting away with it that irritates me. Probably at base this is what annoys me about the situation with this author, and with those who'd excuse the behavior.