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So he recovers his data - great! But what should a back up plan be for a large 18TB raid or More?
Smaller 3TB HDD's with sections of the data?

---Curious
 
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The latest Areca Beta Driver for Mac OS X 10.7 Lion (not yet available on their website) will be tested a couple hours later after I finish to restore all data into the newly created RAID-5 disk groups (18TB = 2TB x 12 HDDs = RAID-5 volumes x 3 (4 x HDDs per RAID-5 set)). It is top priority. After that, I will test the driver and report the bugs to Apple and Areca.:D

But I do believe users who haven't see this thread will kick into the same trap. It is still a global scale disaster (Doomsday is still coming to look for you:D).

Make sure you report the Lion bug to Apple -- it's in still in beta so hopefully Apple will have a chance to fix it before final release. You might save someone -- maybe a bunch of someones -- a lot of grief.

So he recovers his data - great! But what should a back up plan be for a large 18TB raid or More?
Smaller 3TB HDD's with sections of the data?

---Curious

I don't know -- maybe a second 18 TB raid? I'm curious, too, if someone knows what it typically done.
 
I just submitted a bug report to Apple as the follow:


=================================================
Summary:

*** This is a Serious Bugs Warning for RAID-5 Volumes using Lion's default RAID driver***

The Lion's default build-in "RAID card driver" for Areca RAID card (my model is ARC-1880LP) on Mac OS X 10.7 Lion Developer Preview 4 (DP4) will DESTROY the RAID/Array configuration information stored on the RAID-5 drives and break up (de-formation) all RAID-5 volumes into individual pieces during Lion's installation process. It seems that the Lion's build-in RAID driver cannot handle a RAID-5 volumes with parity data. This bug doesn't affect to hardware RAID-0 volume in my test. However, any RAID-5 volumes will be destroyed and become unrecoverable permanently until those RAID-5 volumes are recreated from the hardware configuration level (RAID Controller BIOS level) to reform parity. Simply saying the Lion's default build-in RAID driver will destroy all user data on any RAID-5 volumes attached to a Mac Pro system. (I just suffered the pain of losing 18TB data at once, after I installed Lion DP4 on my Mac Pro.).

Users are experiencing high risk of data lost once they start the installation process of Lion and having any RAID-5 disk volumes attached to a Mac Pro system. It is a serious data integrity problem.


Steps to Reproduce:

Attaching any Areca RAID-5 disk volumes into a Mac Pro 2010 (my Mac Pro installed a ARC-1880LP RAID card). Starts the Lion DP4 installation process. You are ready to lose the RAID-configuration and crash the RAID drives at once. RAID configuration information on the RAID drives will be lost after the installation is completed (All RAID drives breaking apart and mounted onto Desktop automatically). If you click into any "broken up drive", that drive will be deformed from the RAID array even you fallback to 10.6 Snow Leopard. It will quite shock to you. I guarantee.


Expected Results:

The Lion's default build-in RAID driver for Areca RAID card should not break up (deform) the Areca RAID-5 volumes during the installation process. No data lost is allowed.


Actual Results:



Regression:



Notes:

I have reported this serious bug to Areca Official Support thru support@areca.com.tw (Name of Support Engineer: Mr. Billion Wu), and got a rely from him. Mr Wu sent me a latest beta driver for Areca RAID card for testing on Lion DP4 today. It works. Please contact him to replace your driver pre-shipped in the Lion Installation Image (Gold Master Build) next month. Otherwise, a global scale disaster of data lost may outbreak once the Lion is out. Your existing build-in driver in Lion will cause a major data integrity disaster to many performance demanding/professional users if they have RAID-5 volumes attached.


Tested on:

- Mac Pro 2010 (12 cores Westmere model)
- Areca ARC-1880LP RAID Controller for SATA/SAS.
- RAID-5 disk groups and volumes x 3 (2TB x 12 HDDs = 4 HDDs per RAID-5 diskgroup / volume), all RAID-5 volumes are destroyed by Lion, all RAID-5 volumes become unrecoverable and unusable. Data lost 100%, RAID-5 array deformed.

==========================================================


No one uses Lion next month...... so horrible, It is "MAD OS", not Mac OS:D
 
Cool!

Though I hope it wasn't submitted in that orange-on-white color scheme. Probably no one would read it ;)
 
I do feel for you. I've lost data twice before, not having backups in place. Some of it was very personal, important to me, and irreplaceable.

1) The first time I lost data, I had no back ups. That taught me to back up important data.

2) The second time I lost data, I had actually been backing it up. So I went to the backups only to find that not a damn one of them worked, so nothing could actually be recovered. So that taught me that I'm not really backing up unless I occasionally test the recovery process to verify it works.

We've all seen many stories about #1, but I've also seen a few about #2. TEST YOUR BACKUPS.

P.S. From my own experience as well as years of reading forums, I feel RAID is a bag of hurt. Yes there are some pros, but they come with a lot of cons as well, some of which are unacceptable to me.
Most of the issues like this seen with hardware RAID tend to originate with the user, but this particular instance is definitely user. RAID is complicated, and can be disastrous for those that don't know what they're doing.

This even goes back to your second point. New users to hardware RAID tend to get it up and running, but never test out how the gear will react under failure conditions, nor test out any backup strategies that have been implemented.

Such mistakes are costly in terms of data loss, and time (not to mention the extreme stress involved).

Another thing to keep in mind is OS upgrades frequently kill disks that were on the verge. An OS upgrade is stressful. The boot disk is writing TONS of data, moving blocks, Spotlight indexes are being rebuilt, etc etc.
True.

This is no different than trying to use a degraded set that's in the process of rebuilding itself (start the rebuild, try to use the system, and another disk/s fails = array is gone, taking all data stored on it as well).

And for such situations, no backup = totally screwed. :(

I crashed a SAN at work with Lion beta 1. That was the end of my "Hey this is super OK and stable" foolery. I feel your pain but no backups and beta software is pebkac of the highest order.
Telling people on a forum full of geeks takes some balls though.
Yikes! :eek:

I hope that was only a test-bed system, and not the primary and any fail-over systems.

So he recovers his data - great! But what should a back up plan be for a large 18TB raid or More?
Smaller 3TB HDD's with sections of the data?
The cheapest way (cost/GB), would be use an eSATA card + PM enclosures and Green drives (use a software JBOD implementation <concatenation = single volume of all members in the set>, which OS X can do).

But there's other ways to get it done as well, such as an identical configuration, and use backup software to copy the data from one array to the other (do not use RAID 1, as problems will be duplicated; think user error, such as an accidentally deleted file).

*** This is a Serious Bugs Warning for RAID-5 Volumes using Lion's default RAID driver***
...<snip>...
What?

This doesn't sound right, as Apple's past RAID drivers were not written for Areca or any other 3rd party RAID card, but solely for their own Apple RAID Pro (LSI is the ODM).

Please understand, that drivers are specific to their makers' cards (i.e. you wouldn't want to attempt to use LSI's drivers with anything other than an LSI card, as things like what you ran into tend to happen).

In such testing, here's what to do (or for a new version of OS X installation):
  1. Make sure your backup is fully up to date.
  2. Shut down the system.
  3. Remove the RAID card.
  4. Restart and install the new version of OS X.
  5. When it's finished, install the Areca Drivers (assuming there aren't new drivers, then you'll have to experiment with the latest from the previous OS version).
  6. Shutdown the system.
  7. Re-install the card.
  8. Reboot.

In the case of Beta software, there is a very high risk that things will go wrong, even if the above procedures are followed (with a recent issue of a new version as well, but presumably, the card's manufacturer has had enough time to release new drivers at the same time).

I know your issues already happened, but hopefully this can help you not to repeat this sort of mistake again. ;)

And I'm glad you were able to get your data back :) (you previously gave me the impression you couldn't backup your data from the degraded set).
 
The whole story sounds like a real disaster:(. Drivers problem is one of a reasons why I decided to go with Apple's native RAID card for my mac pro. I tried all Lion's developers previews and Apple's RAID card works like a charm. I'm very happy with it.:)
 
The whole story sounds like a real disaster:(.

Of course, it was a real disaster:mad: If the data was lost eventually. I would destroy their Mac Pro (my Mac Pro) and donate it to the third world for a revenge!!!:D
 
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Areca RAID-5 Volumes Destroyed - Bug fixed on Mac OS X 10.7.2

I received a notice from Apple and telling me that this bug has been fixed on Mac OS X 10.7.2 and want me to execute a test for it on last week priors the official release of Mac OS X 10.7.2 update.

I tested the latest beta revision of Mac OS X 10.7.2 build 11c73 this morning. Yeah, it is confirmed that the bug has been fixed on the latest Mac OS X 10.7.2 beta. And I reported back to Apple just now.

It has been three months. I think this is the final gift that I received from Steve.

Thank you Steve. ;) R.I.P.


bugfixed.png
 
I received a notice from Apple and telling me that this bug has been fixed on Mac OS X 10.7.2 and want me to execute a test for it on last week priors the official release of Mac OS X 10.7.2 update.

I tested the latest beta revision of Mac OS X 10.7.2 build 11c73 this morning. Yeah, it is confirmed that the bug has been fixed on the latest Mac OS X 10.7.2 beta. And I reported back to Apple just now.

It has been three months. I think this is the final gift that I received from Steve.

Thank you Steve. ;) R.I.P.

Great news. Making mistakes is never a problem if you a) fix it and b) learn from it ;)

I'm wondering whether to go anywhere near Lion with my Highpoint raid card. I have Triage backups where only my most important data is backed up to separate drives, and my most important media (photos etc) is backed up to multiple secondary machines. However I just can't face rebuilding all that data if Highpoint drivers built into Lion cause me problems.

I haven't seen much chat about highpoint success/failure, does anyone have any experience?
 
I haven't seen much chat about highpoint success/failure, does anyone have any experience?
Not sure what HPT product you're using, but both their simple SATA controllers as well as their hardware RAID controllers have been affected.

So I'd recommend skipping it until Lion is known to be stable (you're welcome to test it out, but in the event of a failure, you'll have to restore all of that data from your various backup locations = not fun and eats additional time).
 
Not sure what HPT product you're using, but both their simple SATA controllers as well as their hardware RAID controllers have been affected.

So I'd recommend skipping it until Lion is known to be stable (you're welcome to test it out, but in the event of a failure, you'll have to restore all of that data from your various backup locations = not fun and eats additional time).


Thanks Nano, I have a 4320 and I'm so bored of HPTs random support that I'll probably find another card to go with. Might I run into problems with a different Vendor's card recognizing my current array?
 
Thanks Nano, I have a 4320 and I'm so bored of HPTs random support that I'll probably find another card to go with. Might I run into problems with a different Vendor's card recognizing my current array?
HPT sucks for driver, firmware, and tech support. Especially with RAID products, as they don't design any of it.

Unfortunately, what happens on the RAID cards is done on a low level, and tends to be proprietary. So attaching a pre-existing array from one card make to another isn't likely to work (unless the cards are actually from the same source company, such as rebranded ODM products).

As a result, you'll need to make a full backup before installing the new card, then initialize the disks on the new card in the desired RAID level (wipes all data).

Once it's finished, then you can restore your data (but I highly recommend performing failure testing first, so you don't inadvertently trust your data to a potentially unstable storage system).

Sorry it's not better news, but don't presume that it would work on a new card, even if it is from the same ODM (i.e. Highpoint's hardware RAID cards are usually made by Areca, but they may be cut down versions of what they normally sell in order to meet budget conditions).

Best to skip HPT and just get an Areca (or ATTO), and the support is light years of an improvement (both Areca and ATTO design and test their products, so they know how they work).
 
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