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Joseph Farrugia

macrumors regular
Jul 31, 2011
148
0
Malta (EU)
But no access to iCloud, and the host of security fixes and enhancements along the way...

There are so many better alternatives to iCloud that it is a moot point; & security wise SL is still as secure as can be (please don't fall for some of the FUD spread on the web).
As for "enhancements"……if you mean "hindrances to pro workflow" I agree :D
(I'll anticipate: do a google if you wish to learn more)
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
There are so many better alternatives to iCloud that it is a moot point; & security wise SL is still as secure as can be (please don't fall for some of the FUD spread on the web).
As for "enhancements"……if you mean "hindrances to pro workflow" I agree :D
(I'll anticipate: do a google if you wish to learn more)

You're quite wrong. It's not a moot point - for people with an iPhone as well as a Mac iCloud is the easiest way to synchronise and back up everything, not really a moot point as the alternatives to this are...... Google? Fetch. Yahoo? Doesn't support half the features...... etc.

Security wise, Snow Leopard is still 18 months old and is not going to get the same security updates as will be available for Lion or Mountain Lion.

Hindrances to pro workflow? Exactly what is that? What am I supposed to Google? The lack of rosetta? It's about time that software was updated to work on newer machines, it's not like Intel Mac's are still brand new!

That's a plus!

For you, maybe, not for everyone else.
 

benwiggy

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2012
2,473
289
There are plenty of bugs in Mountain Lion -- but then there are still bugs that remain in Snow Leopard, some of them significant. 10.6 was not the high-water mark of Western Civilization. Lots of earlier builds had terrible issues, including the great Font FUBAR of 10.6.6. You'll find lots of posts harking back to the golden days of Leopard.

There are many nice features in 10.8, on top of the underlying frameworks. iCloud IS pretty much the only easy way to sync Calendars, Contacts, Notes, Reminders and Bookmarks across Apple devices. I'd still recommend DropBox for documents, though.

Dictation is surprisingly effective.

The enhancements to Finder copying and moving are desirable and long-overdue.

If you include Lion's features in the balance, then there are a whole range of other features which add to productivity.

Personally, I find Auto-save, Resume and Versions very useful and welcome, though I know a lot of people can't work with it. Yes, it's a brand new way of looking at documents and apps, but then so it was in 1984 when I started using a mouse.

I don't see any of the "iOSification" as hindering or obstructing at all. The only thing I worry about on that front is the sandboxing, though I hope that can be refined.

Are there things in 10.8 I want improved? Yes. Do I miss anything in 10.6? Not really. Would I sacrifice all the advantages of 10.8 to regain one little feature that might subjectively be better in 10.6? Definitely not.

I'm a great believer that hardware and software are all transitory. My data must last forever, but the apps, OSes and hardware will all come and go. Hanging onto old hardware and software, without an acceptance that one day you must migrate, will bring pain when that migration is forced upon you by hardware failing, software incompatibilities or other anachronistic problems.
All these threads of people trying to run 10.6 -- or even earlier! -- on 2012 hardware: essentially these are short-term patches that do not address the bigger picture.

Ultimately, most people will choose whether to move up on entirely subjective grounds, rather than any arbitrary scale of "best".
 
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Hugh

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2003
840
5
Erie, PA
;-)


SpeedSearchX is CFM (Mac OS Code Fragment Manager), CarbonLib-based app, which i use under Snow Leopard. IIRC, i used it also on Mac OS 8.6 and 9.x.x.

I find data types and functions with this tool (in /usr/include/, /System/Library/Frameworks/, and so on).

----------


I had a so called “worm” under Mac OS 8.1. Disinfectant removed this worm, IIRC.

Older Mac OS did have viruses, and it was a small market. In the ten years of OS X there haven't been a virus (yet), however there are few trojans out there for the Mac.

Hugh
 

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
First red flag: "I already know that at least one my ancillaries will not work with ML!!"

Not an expert.... But I know ML is not backward compatible to a load of applications. SL will run anything 10X and some OS9. ML chokes with the older applications. If your Mac usage is entertainment driven, music and movies kind of thing, then ML could work for you. Personally I am sticking with SL until the computer takes a dirt nap. I think and I do not know this for certain, but Apple seems to me to be driving the hardware into gossip gadgets. This ML works wonders in concert with the i-goofy hand held with the cutesy cartoon apps that follow people around like a shadow. I just want a smooth reliable running machine and the SL does that for me, my $0.02.

Cheers indeed,

Greg

Errr no it won't.

There are many apps not compatible with Snow Leopard. Including ALL OS9 apps and some early OS X apps including some Adobe apps, and AFAIAC Carbonised apps are OS X apps.

----------

But no access to iCloud, and the host of security fixes and enhancements along the way...

It can access iCloud...


Just not the storage... Although I bet there is a workaround for that too ;)

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-57511534-263/how-to-set-up-icloud-services-in-snow-leopard/
 

Joseph Farrugia

macrumors regular
Jul 31, 2011
148
0
Malta (EU)
You're quite wrong. It's not a moot point - for people with an iPhone as well as a Mac iCloud is the easiest way to synchronise and back up everything, not really a moot point as the alternatives to this are...... Google? Fetch. Yahoo? Doesn't support half the features...... etc.

Security wise, Snow Leopard is still 18 months old and is not going to get the same security updates as will be available for Lion or Mountain Lion.

Hindrances to pro workflow? Exactly what is that? What am I supposed to Google? The lack of rosetta? It's about time that software was updated to work on newer machines, it's not like Intel Mac's are still brand new!
.

Please don't spread useless FUD about security & SL. SL needn't be any less secure than ML.

No it's not Rosetta at all; there's more to it than that. If you're not interested it's another moot point :D
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
Please don't spread useless FUD about security & SL. SL needn't be any less secure than ML.

No it's not Rosetta at all; there's more to it than that. If you're not interested it's another moot point :D

I am interested, I want to know why people insist on staying two versions behind?

It's like people downgrading Windows 7 to Windows XP - or XP to 98!
 

Joseph Farrugia

macrumors regular
Jul 31, 2011
148
0
Malta (EU)
I am interested, I want to know why people insist on staying two versions behind?

It's like people downgrading Windows 7 to Windows XP - or XP to 98!

Your use of Hyperbole & FUD (not to mention apples/oranges) will neither help the discussion, nor help you understand.

You're happy with ML? Great for you. No need for all that other stuff of yours though.
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
Why do you avoid the question? Exactly what affects 'pro workflow' between SL and ML? As far as I can tell the core operating system hasn't changed, apart from the removal of support for legacy apps using Rosetta.
 

Eithanius

macrumors 68000
Nov 19, 2005
1,556
419
It's obvious some people here have not used SL before... Blame it all on that iOS FUD and you get these kinda people hopping onto the ML bandwagon and question old Mac heads why they stay 2 versions behind and why not 1 or 3 versions behind... Bloody ignorants...! :mad::mad::rolleyes:
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
So I'm ignorant now am I? This gets better and better.

True, my first real Mac came with Lion installed, however I went through the pain and anguish of getting Leopard and Snow Leopard installed onto my Hackintosh.

Obviously that experience doesn't qualify me to ask questions as to why people are holding back? I've asked this question three or four times now and all I seem to get in response is the same as asking a vet about the Vietnam war... "You don't know man, you weren't there!".

Please just answer my simple question - why do you need to stick with Snow Leopard?
 

Eithanius

macrumors 68000
Nov 19, 2005
1,556
419
Please just answer my simple question - why do you need to stick with Snow Leopard?

Please just answer my simple question - WHY DO YOU NEED TO KNOW...? And why you care so much bout other people sticking their asses on SL...?

Is that your only life and death question...? Coz if it is, you better get a life... There's so much more than just SL vs ML... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I feel sorry for you dude... :D:D
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
I don't need to know, but I think it will provoke some interesting discussion. Thus far, it's beginning to sound as though there is no reason, seeing as nobody actually answers the question.

What makes you think it's a life and death question?
 

talmy

macrumors 601
Oct 26, 2009
4,727
337
Oregon
I am interested, I want to know why people insist on staying two versions behind?

No reason to ask someone who won't answer. And *you* can do a search of peoples' complaints about ML (and Lion).

We have 7 Macs, 4 on ML and 3 on SL.

Two of the Macs on SL are used as entertainment servers, run Plex and occasionally Safari to stream video not available on Plex. There is simply no reason to upgrade these systems. It would take time to upgrade and would offer no advantage. It might also force upgrading from 2GB of RAM (which is adequate in SL) to 4GB of RAM, and upgrading RAM isn't easy on these white Minis.

The third mini is a server and runs Snow Leopard Server. The more recent server OSes have had features removed, some of which I use.

The ML systems are two iMacs and two portables (a MBP and a MBA). One of each for my wife and I. We both like the new features of Lion and ML.
 

GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,556
950
I am interested, I want to know why people insist on staying two versions behind?
First, why upgrade to another version unless it offers something the user wants or needs that isn't offered by their current version? Like many users, I don't upgrade just because a developer encourages it. Their motivation is to sell new software. Mine is to accomplish the things I need a computer for.

Second, SL is a very stable, secure, good-performing OS. There is no significant benefit in upgrading for those reasons.

Third, some may not like or need the new features and/or GUI in Lion and ML. I certainly don't.

As far as syncing an iPhone and a Mac, this is easily done with SL, without any need for iCloud.
True, my first real Mac came with Lion installed, however I went through the pain and anguish of getting Leopard and Snow Leopard installed onto my Hackintosh.
Your experience with SL is obviously different from those who ran it on Macs, without any "pain and anguish". If that's your experience, it's obvious why you don't understand that both Leopard and SL are good versions of Mac OS.
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
Thanks Guys, that honestly does help. I guess I'm still more used to the Windows way of working with updates - if you're not on the latest version of Windows you're open to multiple security holes which aren't fixed on older versions of the OS.

Your experience with SL is obviously different from those who ran it on Macs, without any "pain and anguish". If that's your experience, it's obvious why you don't understand that both Leopard and SL are good versions of Mac OS.

When it was running, it worked extremely well indeed, but between when I was using it casually on a hackintosh, and now, with ML on my MBP, I'm not seeing too many differences, apart from the addition of features, but then I guess at that time I wasn't (and still am not) a "power user" as such.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,205
7,360
Perth, Western Australia
2c.

(below statements based on the viewpoint of using your mac for important stuff, if it's just a hobby machine at home and you won't lose money or anything of consequence or anything you care about if it breaks, then who cares - keep SL until it breaks!)


With the above in mind...

If you don't have a migration plan to get off Snow Leopard at some point (to ML or its successor, which should be due out in say 6 months) you should be considering dumping the mac platform for something else. Something that will be supported.

Sure, there are still security updates reasonably recently for SL, but you can bet they will stop as soon as 10.9 hits.

Rather than being in panic reaction mode if/when there's some un-patchable malware out for 10.6 in say 9 months time - plan how you're going to deal with that potential situation now.

If that plan is "upgrade to 10.8 or 10.9 when SL support runs out" then that's fine. Replacing hardware that is not supported may be unavoidable.

But... sticking on 10.6 forever (with no plan) is only going to eventually end in tears - eventually your hand will be FORCED, be it via security problem in 10.6, some new software you need/want, etc.


Also: SL is not getting 3d driver updates. The 3d performance in ML is significantly better.

People are complaining about ML and Lion memory performance. If you have 8+ GB it is a non-issue. If you do not have 8GB or more you'd be well advised to get 8GB or more (even if sticking with SL, it will vastly improve "teh snappy!") - 8GB currently runs about 40 dollars for a laptop, likely less for a desktop.

Yes, people will complain that "it needs more memory therefore it is less efficient!!!!!". Deal with it. New operating systems have been requiring more resources since computers were invented, and OS X is no different.

16 GB is under a hundred bucks now... additional features don't come for free.
 
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GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,556
950
Rather than being in panic reaction mode if/when there's some un-patchable malware out for 10.6 in say 9 months time - plan how you're going to deal with that potential situation now.
There has never been any Mac OS X malware in the wild that couldn't be successfully avoided by practicing safe computing, regardless of which version of Mac OS X is being run, or which patches have been installed. While that could change in the future, at this time there is no malware-related reason to upgrade from SL, unless the user just wants to.
 

SanJacinto

macrumors regular
Nov 3, 2011
236
61
Milky Way Galaxy
Thanks GGJstudios (Post #66).
It's not the first time, that your post is the one with the right words at the right time to calm down emotions.

I guess the SL vs ML (or L) topic will never come to an end.

I think it's wrong to compare Windows and OS X.

In my pre-Mac years I used to update every second version of Windows due to better security and often a better UI. Every second version means 3,5 to 4 years with one OS what I guess is not long.

Since using a Mac and especially since 10.6 I think it's not that urgent to update.
I still remember the jump from 10.4 to 10.5, or the introduction of Spotlight in 10.4, these were essential changes.
I don't want to say that there are no important changes in the current (and future) version(s), but the OS is (at the moment) quite mature.

I can use my 10.6 as HTPC without Apple TV and everything still feels like future compared to Microsoft and it's Windows (these are my guests words when watching movies at my home).

If you don't use iCloud or Airplay, then there is no need to update. Everything else are features, you can get by third party apps.

To answer dontpannics question from my perspective:
Why do I still use OS X Snow Leopard:

- Front Row as Home TV (no need for 99€ ATV, just 15€ for HDMI cable)
- Expose (at the time of my diploma thesis there was no ML. SL's expose assured a very smooth and fast workflow between 10+ Word windows)
- It's bullet proofed. At the moment my system is up 60+ days (running 10h per day surfing, gaming, watching HD movies)
- Using two monitors, watching movie on one, working on the other. I heard that this is still a problem in ML/L (?)
- Simple and easy access to Library folders
- And the most important point: There is nothing in ML/L I need at the moment. Really. No iCloud because I am still using an Original iPhone (yeah baby) and no need for Notification Center (if I would need one, there is Growl).

For the future, if there will be a feature (or Jony Ive's magnificent gorgeous Dieter Rams influenced UI ;) ) I am the first who will update - in a second.
But for the moment - there is no need.

Thanks for reading.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,205
7,360
Perth, Western Australia
There has never been any Mac OS X malware in the wild that couldn't be successfully avoided by practicing safe computing, regardless of which version of Mac OS X is being run, or which patches have been installed. While that could change in the future, at this time there is no malware-related reason to upgrade from SL, unless the user just wants to.

I never said there was. However, there has been at least a couple of remotely exploitable vulnerability for OS X that required no user input and could be exploited by a machine simply being on a network (such as a public wifi hotspot) that the exploit was launched from:

http://www.juniper.net/security/auto/vulnerabilities/vuln24159.html
also
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/bonjour-apple-connect-to-this-mac-os-x-exploit/240

They were easily found with a 30 second web search, and are both remotely exploitable with no user input required. Yes they're both old. But, fact remains - apple is not infallible, and nor is anyone else.

I agree OS X has a better security record than Windows, but to claim it is somehow immune is just sticking your head in the sand.


It is only prudent to take this into account - rather than figuring it out on the spot if/when the problem occurs. Again, if it is a machine you don't make money with this is less critical.

I'm not saying you necessarily need to MIGRATE now, but you should be thinking about what you'll do when the time comes. I mean it could be something as simple as hardware failure and your new mac not supporting 10.6 that is the catalyst. Sooner or later, you will have to migrate.


Also, to take into account support for any new software or peripherals you may want to buy in the future, as Apple can and will drop support for 10.6 in the OS X development kit, like they already did for 10.5 some time ago.

No 10.6 support in the new SDK means that the availability of new software will diminish.



- Using two monitors, watching movie on one, working on the other. I heard that this is still a problem in ML/L (?)

You can do this in exactly the same way you can in SL, which doesn't support full-screen (which if you're working on a laptop while NOT plugged into another screen, is awesome).

Just use the green maximize window button or size the window appropriately - as you would in SL.

I watch stuff on one screen while working in the other regularly on ML.



edit:
plenty more exploits requiring no unusual user action:
http://energy.gov/cio/articles/u-26...-arbitrary-code-and-local-users-gain-elevated

To spell it out clearly:
Apple OS X Lets Remote Users Execute Arbitrary Code and Local Users Gain Elevated Privileges

Means that combining a remote user exploit and a local privilege escalation exploit (of which both are listed), a remote user can execute arbitrary code as root on your box. Without you being prompted to do anything.

The fact that there isn't a significant amount of malware out there doing this in the wild isn't because the mac is magically secure. It's just dumb luck/not considered a worthy enough target right now.


Only visiting "trusted" web sites is only good if the trusted website doesn't get hacked.

If there was a zero day in vBulletin for example launched against macrumors.com (or one of its ad servers for that matter) to insert malicious code into either the HTML or an image , then any visitor of this site who was vulnerable (to the exploit inserted into the forum code by using the vbulletin exploit to break into the macrumors site) would get owned.

Yes, that is effort. However it is effort that has been put in, in the windows world previously (See code red).

But as the Windows world gets harder to break (7 has been pretty good, 8 should be better), expect the bad guys to start targeting softer (and even better, in the case of mac users - unsuspecting) targets. Like Snow Leopard.
 
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GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,556
950
However it is only prudent to take this into account - rather than figuring it out on the spot when the problem occurs.
I agree it's prudent to keep an eye on the computing environment, as well as the status of currently used OS versions compared with newer releases, but I disagree that the current or near future environment suggests that using SL for now is an unwise decision.
Again, if it is a machine you don't make money with this is less critical.
My computer is my primary earning tool and is critical to my business. That's why I'm less eager to jump into new OS versions as soon as they are released. I prefer to let others be the "guinea pigs" and deal with the inevitable x.0 and x.1 woes.
Also, to take into account support for any new software or hardware you may want to buy in the future, as Apple can and will drop support for 10.6 in the OS X development kit, like they already did for 10.5 some time ago.
While others may have need for some new app or device, I've found that every app I need will run on 10.5 and 10.6, but some may not run on 10.8. That's another thing to consider in the upgrade decision. A new OS version may leave behind some needed apps that aren't upgraded to support the new version.

As far as devices, the only limitation I've seen is hardware-related, not OS-related, such as not having a Thunderbolt port, but there's no Thunderbolt device I care to own.

Again, people should choose what works best for them. I think it's a mistake to suggest to someone who chooses a particular OS X version that theirs is an unwise decision. Everyone's needs are different. SL is the best choice for some users, just as ML may be the best for others. There's no reason to denigrate someone else's choice, just because someone else doesn't share their point of view.
 

Eithanius

macrumors 68000
Nov 19, 2005
1,556
419
2c.
Also: SL is not getting 3d driver updates. The 3d performance in ML is significantly better.

People are complaining about ML and Lion memory performance. If you have 8+ GB it is a non-issue. If you do not have 8GB or more you'd be well advised to get 8GB or more (even if sticking with SL, it will vastly improve "teh snappy!") - 8GB currently runs about 40 dollars for a laptop, likely less for a desktop.

Yes, people will complain that "it needs more memory therefore it is less efficient!!!!!". Deal with it. New operating systems have been requiring more resources since computers were invented, and OS X is no different.

16 GB is under a hundred bucks now... additional features don't come for free.

This is a good start to explain to you and indeed dontpannic (what a nick) why I would not upgrade to L and ML...

Who cares about 3D drivers, I don't game or do anything 3D. However my main complaints have been on UI performance overall, and GPU performance on distributed computing. ML UI is crappy, much like the choppy graphics on iPhone 3GS running iOS 6. You can argue I have a lousy graphics card, but hey, my GT330M-powered MBP is only 2.5 years old, not 5.

BOINC errors out my GPU-driven workunits the moment I played some video on VLC. SL has no such issue. I narrowed this problem to GPU memory leaks on L and ML. So much for efficiency... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

As for physical RAM, I'm already on 8GB max, can't upgrade to 16GB since it's not supported - L and ML is a RAM hog to say the least. So my MBP stays on SL until it dies, and when it does so (maybe another year or two from now), my next MBP (should I decide to stay on iOSified OS X), should have 2GB of VRAM and supporting 32GB RAM to run whatever OS X version Apple decides to throw at it.
 

GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,556
950
edit:
plenty more exploits requiring no unusual user action:
http://energy.gov/cio/articles/u-26...-arbitrary-code-and-local-users-gain-elevated

To spell it out clearly:

Means that combining a remote user exploit and a local privilege escalation exploit (of which both are listed), a remote user can execute arbitrary code as root on your box. Without you being prompted to do anything.
There are plenty of vulnerabilities in every OS version. Whether or not they've actually been exploited via malware in the wild is another matter. Just because you upgrade to a new OS version doesn't eliminate these vulnerabilities.

From the link you posted:
A remote user can create a specially crafted file that, when loaded by the target user via an application that uses CoreText, will trigger an out-of-bounds memory access error and execute arbitrary code [CVE-2012-3716]. Mac OS X v10.6 and OS X Mountain Lion systems are not affected.

A local user can exploit a flaw in LoginWindow to capture password keystrokes from Login Window and Screen Saver Unlock [CVE-2012-3718]. Only OS X Mountain Lion is affected.

A remote user can send a specially crafted e-mail that, when viewed by the target user, will launch an embedded web plugin [CVE-2012-3719]. OS X Mountain Lion is not affected.

A user with access to the contents of a mobile account can obtain the account user's password hash [CVE-2012-3720]. OS X Mountain Lion is affected.

The fact that there isn't a significant amount of malware out there doing this in the wild isn't because the mac is magically secure.
No OS is "magically secure", but the fact remains that there is no overwhelming security advantage in moving from SL to ML, as vulnerabilities exist in both, and all malware in the wild can be avoided through safe computing, no matter what OS X version is chosen.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/bonjour-apple-connect-to-this-mac-os-x-exploit/240

They were easily found with a 30 second web search, and are both remotely exploitable with no user input required. Yes they're both old. But, fact remains - apple is not infallible, and nor is anyone else.
That link is from 2007, and those patches were made 2 years before SL was introduced. That doesn't prove any security advantage in moving from SL to ML.
I agree OS X has a better security record than Windows, but to claim it is somehow immune is just sticking your head in the sand.
Who claimed OS X is immune?

If there was a zero day in vBulletin for example launched against macrumors.com (or one of its ad servers for that matter) to insert malicious code into either the HTML or an image , then any visitor of this site who was vulnerable (to the exploit inserted into the forum code by using the vbulletin exploit to break into the macrumors site) would get owned.
That could be true no matter what OS version you run, what patches you have installed, what antivirus apps you have running. By definition, a zero-day threat is one that hasn't been encountered before and for which no defenses have been created. Again, no reason to upgrade from SL to ML, as ML can be affected by zero-day threats, just as easily.
 
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MichaelLAX

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2011
844
24
Big news update: Apple now selling Snow Leopard Server for $19.99!

For those of you who's main reason for sticking with Snow Leopard is for access to Rosetta, you may know that I have provided a thread for the installation of Snow Leopard client into Parallels which works in both Lion and Mt. Lion.

Here is a post, I have been recently reposting:
____________________________________________________

It is a common Urban Myth that the Snow Leopard EULA prohibits its use in virtualization in Lion or Mt. Lion on a Mac.

Apple sat back quietly while its shills continued to propagate that myth, since it resulted in larger sales of Snow Leopard Server for $499+.

That myth has been largely debunked over the last 18 months; especially by those who have documented workarounds that allowed Parallels and VMWare Fusion to install Snow Leopard client; which Apple was powerless to stop.

Apple finally threw in the towel recently and now offers Snow Leopard Server for $19.99 + sales tax & shipping (call 1.800.MYAPPLE (1.800.692.7753)).

[click on image to enlarge]
 

Attachments

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