Do you feel boxed-in by Apple?

[Phrasikleia]

I'm not sure at what point some of you got the idea I was essentially mourning the loss of Firewire on the MacBook. If anything, I'm most unhappy about the move to glossy-only on the laptop line. I'd like to replace my MacBook Pro with a machine that doesn't have the doomed NVidia 8600M GT in it, but I really loathe glossy screens, chicklet-style keys, the overall aesthetic of the MBP, and the fact that I'll have to pay for a DislplayPort adapter. And yes, there are some things on my wish list that the current one doesn't have (eSata port, for example). I have no other option, though.

I started using Macs with the SE. I've also had a few Quadras, a couple of Performas, an 8600, a G4 desktop, a TiBook, and a MacBook Pro. I've actually lost count of how many Macs I've owned. So I've been through the drill with all the adapters and SCSI cables and SyQuest drives and Zip drives...you name it. So it's not a matter of "learning to move on"; I've been moving on, and I'm getting a bit tired of it. I always thought that Apple getting bigger would mean more options, but instead it's meant more gadget categories and fewer options.

 

[Purple Pelican]

I started using Macs with the SE. I've also had a few Quadras, a couple of Performas, an 8600, a G4 desktop, a TiBook, and a MacBook Pro. I've actually lost count of how many Macs I've owned. So I've been through the drill with all the adapters and SCSI cables and SyQuest drives and Zip drives...you name it. So it's not a matter of "learning to move on"; I've been moving on, and I'm getting a bit tired of it. I always thought that Apple getting bigger would mean more options, but instead it's meant more gadget categories and fewer options.

Good point. And one of the main reasons I don't like the new notebooks IS because of the screen, too. The weird thing is, as time goes on, I see myself resigning and just going with it whenever a feature was dropped. I know I SHOULD be upset and frustrated at all of this, but I've sorta become convinced of its inevitability (probably not a good thing).

The thing is, I understand why everyone is so pissed. You just have to take one look at the "Steve Jobs on Firewire" thread, I believe it has 600+ replies now. Personally I'm sick of it too, but I'm just too tired and used to it to fight the trend toward the replacement of older technology. Now if there only were a viable alternative for FW... USB 2.0 sucks, USB 3 isn't out yet, ESATA support isn't included in Apple notebooks, and there's really no other standard to go on but FW.

 

[Dybbuk]

Yes, actually. Before Apple and I reached an agreement to replace my current MacBook, I was becoming increasingly furious and I was becoming more aware of exactly what I was getting myself into. Apple is definitely a closed ecosystem when compared to other electronics companies, which is both appealing and deterring.

In the end, I decided to stick with Apple for now. But you always have a choice to leave if you want.

 

[MowingDevil]

I understand that firewire is an issue for new MacBook users, and it sucks that Apple has decided to remove such a useful port, however, I have a dozen or so people who have MacBooks and not only don't use the FW port, they don't even know what it is. So, in reality, I'm not sure it's really going to affect that many people aside from the rather vocal minority here.

True but the same thing could be said about Express Ports and video out. I can almost guarantee that FW is more used than those 2 options. I mean really, consider how many FW hard drives, audio interfaces & digicams are out there compared to people use Express ports...or external monitors.

Its all about making the PRO version at least as versatile as possible...the MB should have retained FW if for nothing than Target-disc mode.

If popularity/market demand was the #1 reason for what is added/remains/dropped then why didn't Blu-Ray get added at least for BTO? There's definitely a demand for this (why people would want to watch high def movies on a laptop is another matter entirely) so Apple's justification for dropping FW doesn't fly with me. It was dropped to cripple the MB & force more artistic types into shelling out an additional grand. With FW, the MB would have been too good for its own good and some Pro users would have gone that route instead (now that its aluminum/NVIDIA/backlit kybrds etc).

Personally, (I've been using macs since my old SE/30), I don't think I feel the "boxed-in" feeling that you describe. Here's why.

I've been using Apple laptops since the Bronze Keyboard PB, and I know how it feels to lose features. But eventually, you learn to move on as old technologies are replace with newer ones. First, SCSI died out and was replaced by Firewire; but I learned how to deal with it. Second, Apple's laptops have lost full-size display connectors, but I'm ok with carrying around an adapter. Third, Apple laptops lost the hot-swappable drive and battery bays in the G3, which back then was a feature I really liked. Fourth, Apple laptops have lost FireWire.

The concern about FireWire is legitimate, though. Many consumers, like you (and me to an extent) still use FireWire. But as other members have said, you can work around a lack of FireWire. And considering that Apple seems like they might be moving away from FireWire, you eventually might be forced to do so.

While I can see why you might feel boxed-in by losses in features, I've personally accepted that the replacement of features by newer ones are a natural course of new technology.

Ok fair enough....scsi was replaced by FW and it was a great move. But what the heck has FW been replaced with? Nothing. It hasn't been replaced its been dropped, big difference.

If there was a newer BETTER technology then I'd be all over it. Fact is, leaving us w/ USB is not a step up, its a step down. For audio I wouldn't trust it at all...I'm sure video people feel the same way. Even for external HDs I've never had an issue w/ FW but USB has let me down.

So if there was a new technology that was introduced at the media event I'd seriously be regretting buying all this FW gear and thinking about moving on...as it is I'm forced to go w/ an old computer or upgrade to the glassy-glossy Pro. I don't like where this is going...

I'm not talking about an immediate workaround. I mean eventually. When SCSI support was dropped by Apple, I had a bunch of expensive HDs, etc that were unusable as well. And I do have videocameras, drives, and some other stuff that use FW that didn't come cheap. I understand the frustration. But it does seem that eventually USB 3.0, and maybe even standards like ESATA, may/will come to replace FireWire. The majority of new PCs don't support FireWire. And if you're using pro AV equipment that's going to cost you thousands to replace, then you can shell out for a iMac/Mac Pro/PowerBook, even a Mac Mini that supports FW.

Look, I don't like the loss of FW either. However, FW seems to be used less and less for certain applications, and it may eventually become obsolete. It's just something that has to be dealt with.

You're right, its inevitable but why not at least provide it until the new technology is at least here? Thats all I'm saying.

The truth is they crippled the MB intentionally because it was too good otherwise and they needed it to fall in a certain price range.

 

[cube]

Ok fair enough....scsi was replaced by FW and it was a great move.

What great move? To hook up my Cube to an LTO drive I had to get a stupid FW/SCSI adapter that only supports an obsolete and old SCSI version so that it is only a stop-gap solution as it cannot keep up with the speed of the tape. If I turn on my FW TV tuner while I'm using it, it stops working, corrupts the backup and it has to be thrown away.

 

[celavato]

The truth is they crippled the MB intentionally because it was too good otherwise and they needed it to fall in a certain price range.

Very true, but as others have stated many pros would prefer a laptop with a smaller screen. If Apple needs to cripple the MB, fine. But why not offer a higher-priced 13 inch MBP with Firewire. Many pros would be happy to pay a Firewire tax. Apple should also offer a BTO matte screen option at a higher price.

 

[Purple Pelican]

Very true, but as others have stated many pros would prefer a laptop with a smaller screen. If Apple needs to cripple the MB, fine. But why not offer a higher-priced 13 inch MBP with Firewire. Many pros would be happy to pay a Firewire tax. Apple should also offer a BTO matte screen option at a higher price.

Or revive a 12" MBP out of the ashes of the 12" PB

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

I feel completely boxed in and have, for the first time in over half a decade, even considered getting a Windows box in the future. I own a Macbook for the size and its ability to still do professional work, ala the old 12" Powerbook. The screen sucks but that's something I deal with via an external.

 

[RedTomato]

Third, Apple laptops lost the hot-swappable drive and battery bays in the G3, which back then was a feature I really liked.

OT but afaik the ibooks and powerbooks and Macbooks all have hotswappable batteries. There's a second small battery which sustains the machine for about 5 minutes, which gives you time to put the second battery in.

Put the machine to sleep, turn over, extract battery and insert new one, wake up laptop and you're done.

 

[bengal85]

I don't feel trapped by mac but I had to switch from mac to PC because my school and parents use it so I had no way of taking my homework or anything between computers. When I can I am going back to mac because I like mac better than windows

 

[djellison]

Does anyone else feel a bit trapped?

Horribly so. Trapped, and my wallet being drained while I'm stuck.

The new MB is the most frustrating product I've ever seen. STUNNING design, DREADFULL display, SHOCKING specification choices.

It seems that OSX tax ( that %'ge mark-up over equiv PC hardware ) now includes not only paying more, but also getting less. No blu ray, no fire wire, no memory card reader, no high res screen options....but the premium price tag. It's frustrating as hell. I've stopped recommending Macs. OSX and Keynote make so much sense. Mac's themselves, are making less and less - but I'm stuck.

I'm giving very serious though to trying the hackintosh route to get the spec I want, with the hardware I need.

Doug

 

[chrisiw]

Yes, but only because of lack of FW.

As it is, the intel macs are far more open than the PPC macs.

But if i was in a slightly different situation, I would also point out the lack of a mac midi-tower or a cheap OSX netbook.

As it is, I can seriously see myself buying a MSI Wind or similar in the next few years and putting OSX on it. Especially once they start coming with firewire, which given the rate netbooks are advancing isn't too unlikely.

(Some already have Expresscard slots which mean FW is only about $30 away on them)

I have just got a MSI Wind three weeks ago, and it is really good, I am so pleased with its performance, its fast, it does not drop connections even when in WiFi hotspots away from home, and with Apple's non stop price increases, on new laptops, it is making me think abit! and i have been Mac for years.

 

[chrisiw]

Horribly so. Trapped, and my wallet being drained while I'm stuck.

The new MB is the most frustrating product I've ever seen. STUNNING design, DREADFULL display, SHOCKING specification choices.

It seems that OSX tax ( that %'ge mark-up over equiv PC hardware ) now includes not only paying more, but also getting less. No blu ray, no fire wire, no memory card reader, no high res screen options....but the premium price tag. It's frustrating as hell. I've stopped recommending Macs. OSX and Keynote make so much sense. Mac's themselves, are making less and less - but I'm stuck.

I'm giving very serious though to trying the hackintosh route to get the spec I want, with the hardware I need.

Doug

Fully agree! Apple seems to be "Less for more money" these days, and the new MacBook is a big let down I feel, I was going to upgrade my White MacBook but will not now, and after getting a little Netbook, MSI Wind, and seeing how good the display is in the Sunlight, and at less than one third of the price........it makes me wonder!

 

[GimmeSlack12]

I haven't really thought of the notion that Apple is hindering us with their products. But the OP might have a point.

It really is a case of tunnel vision with Apple. I see some of the technologies that Apple introduces here and there over the years and think thats all good and fun, but everytime the technology has existed in prior hardware, just never marketed so strongly. The idea that Apple isn't on the forefront of technology doesn't really bother me, but what does bother me is that the offerings from Apple are so limited that it is assumed by them that whatever they offer is exactly what we need. And I don't think that is necessarily true.

 

[knightlie]

I would argue that yes, if there is a feature you want that is readily available only to PC users, then you are boxed in; you can't step out of the box to have that feature. A PC user, however, can shop around and has quite a lot of options. If HP doesn't have what they want, they'll just go to Sony. If Apple doesn't have what I want, I have nowhere else to go (all of my software is for Mac, and I have some 25,000 photos organized in Aperture). That's what makes me feel boxed in.

Can you give some examples of what these "options" are? I've not encountered anything I can't do with my Mac that I could with my PC. Is there something specific you're missing?

 

[Phrasikleia]

Can you give some examples of what these "options" are? I've not encountered anything I can't do with my Mac that I could with my PC. Is there something specific you're missing?

For example, I do not currently have the option to buy a current-model Apple laptop that has a matte screen or that doesn't have an ugly black mirror surrounding its screen (It's difficult to consider the 17" MBP a truly current model right now, and it's too big for me anyway.) Nor can I buy an Apple laptop with a built-in DVI-out port, eSata port, HDMI port, fingerprint reader, card reader, or any number of other things that particular users might prefer to have built-in to their machines instead of using some adapter or express card or dongle that hangs off, sticks out, and becomes yet another annoying excrescence on their portable.

Likewise, I can't get an ultraportable laptop from Apple that has two USB ports or even built-in ethernet. (And no, a laptop that weighs 4.5lbs is not an ultraportable.)

Of course, Apple cannot possibly provide all of these things at once, but as Apple gets larger, it seems to be narrowing its customers' options instead of widening them; the omission of the matte screen option is a particularly glaring example (pun intended). Someone who doesn't mind Windows, however, has many companies to choose from when purchasing hardware, and therefore lots of options.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Cudadown]

Actually, I feel like I saw apple made these really nice boxes. So i took a look at one up close and found it appealling. I bought the box and took it home. I climbed in and it was all warm and fuzzy inside. I have felt nice and safe, warm and fuzzy in my little apple box ever since.

 

[Sam*]

My View on apple is quite simple

Hardware - pretty crappy for the price you pay
Software - excellent
Design - excellent

2 out of 3, so I'm trapped. Oh well

but then again my 2 year old iMac is still just as fast as any new windows machine I've been on

 

[robanga]

As a relatively new switcher to the modern Mac ( I have essentially been away since about 1991) I do not feel boxed in at all. The OS, the lack of malware and viruses, the ease of integration within my small businesses, my job and household is excellent. I bought at new MB last week to use as my main office PC running both Windows and OS X.

Those of you that are thinking of jumping over to the Windows world again, word of caution its not exactly a bed of roses over there

 

[ChrisA]

Boxed in, like in a luxury resort.

I'm enjoying the Mac Experience and I am able to do everything I want. I can understand someone having needs that would be beyond what Apple products provide. It's really up to the user.

What if some one needs a computer professional quality LCD monitor and can't spend $3,500? All of the iMacs and now all the Apple notebooks come with screens optimised for media players. What if you are actually creating content?

And look at Apple's offering on the desktop. Only speciality products, an Mini, an All-in-one and an ultra-expensive. Where is the "mainstream" desktop computer? Apple used to make one. The old G4 tower sold for $1,500 in the 90's but now years later they can't build a $1,500 mainstream desktop machine.

In general, Apple's big problem is the slim hardware choice. The range is just not there.

I think many Apple users dimply put up with the hardware so they can run Mac OS X and the applications. Given the option many would prefer something else.

You have to understand that MOST people 90% of them look at Apple's hardware and choose something else. Apple doesn't care. Steve himself in the last quarterly teleconference said the "Apple chooses not to server some customers". So those 90% at by Apple's choice. Those guys simply don't come into the store with enough money in the pocket. Apple does not want them and does not make the product they want.

What Apple is doing here is "Cherry picking" (pun?) It's a good way to make money and it works. You cherry pick the most profitable portion of the market and just tell the rest "We don't serve your kind. Go away."

 

[hulugu]

What if some one needs a computer professional quality LCD monitor and can't spend $3,500? All of the iMacs and now all the Apple notebooks come with screens optimised for media players. What if you are actually creating content?

And look at Apple's offering on the desktop. Only speciality products, an Mini, an All-in-one and an ultra-expensive. Where is the "mainstream" desktop computer? Apple used to make one. The old G4 tower sold for $1,500 in the 90's but now years later they can't build a $1,500 mainstream desktop machine.

In general, Apple's big problem is the slim hardware choice. The range is just not there.

I think many Apple users dimply put up with the hardware so they can run Mac OS X and the applications. Given the option many would prefer something else.....

Actually, I think many users are serviced well by the range of Macs, however you're correct about the lack of a "headless" mid-range tower. The MacPro is ridiculously expensive for someone who needs such a box. I miss the G4 towers.

 

[zap2]

Yes, but not to the point where'd I leave.


I'd like FW 400 on my low end laptop. I'd like a mid-range desktop with room to update. And I'd like a low end desktop thats updat faster then 400+ days.

 

[ChrisA]

I don't feel trapped by mac but I had to switch from mac to PC because my school and parents use it so I had no way of taking my homework or anything between computers...

All the file formats transfer from Mac OS X to Windows just fine. what could you not move between the Windows and Mac OS X?

 

[PlaceofDis]

reading some of these posts makes me think and wonder something...

is Apple becoming more of a Software company than Hardware. yes they do both but the old saying was and has been that Apple makes the OS and software for the hardware - the latter being one of the most appealing aspects. but with increasingly number of people disenfranchised by Windows and finding better alternative solution is seems that the Software from Apple is what is driving people more now than the hardware itself.

 

[ChrisA]

Actually, I think many users are serviced well by the range of Macs,.

Yes, correct, many are. In fact many tens of millions are well serviced by Apple. But if you look at how people spend their money ten times more are NOT serviced by Apple well enough to make them hand over their money.

But I think this is intentional by Apple. Apple wants the most profitable fraction of the market and simply ignores the less profitable majority of it. Their plan is working too, Apple is doing well.