Big Sur will not do Time Machine backups to a HFS+ drive, it wants to reformat it to APFS.
Can you use Disk Utility to check your backup drive's format? I formatted it as HFS+ as well. But after a TM backup, it became APFS.Umm, it does TM backups to HFS+. I’m doing it.
Can you use Disk Utility to check your backup drive's format? I formatted it as HFS+ as well. But after a TM backup, it became APFS.
Can you use Disk Utility First Aid to verify again on the Seagate HDD? In my experiments, some disks would pass first but only fail again later on.While you 'can' format a traditional HDD to APFS, it is much better suited to SSD drives, as that was Apple's original intention. The way the 2 types of drives read/write and handle data is in fact vastly different.
I've read a few explanations as to why APFS on an HDD is not the best idea since sliced bread, with any version of macOS since it (APFS) came out with High Sierra. Here's one:
Understanding Apple Partition Types and How to Use Them
Apple supports three different partition schemes: GUID Partition Table, Apple Partition Map, and Master Boot Record. Which one should you use?www.lifewire.com
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But to answer the original question; No TM backup disk problems on Big Sur 11.5.2, on an M1 Air.
However, I have a Samsung SSD T7 external formatted to APFS which contains my 700GB / 105k image Photos library, it is lightning fast, no problems. Then using Time Machine, I back that drive up to my regular 5TB Seagate HDD which is formatted mac os journaled (HFS+). Again, no problems.
This is my Seagate 5TB HDD, format HFS+:
This is my external Samsung T7 SSD, format APFS:
Can you use Disk Utility First Aid to verify again on the Seagate HDD? In my experiments, some disks would pass first but only fail again later on.
I have 2 external SSD drives and they both pass First Aid check reliably. It is only HDDs that fail. I think it is the particular release of APFS and HDD that don't work well.All failed here as well. Not having any issues with TM backing up or any of my other disks, so likely a Disk Utility issue.
What OS version were you on when you first started using that drive for TM? I've read in some posts that if you come from pre-Big Sur (meaning you have used the particular HDD for TM before upgrading to Big Sur) it does not change the format.It’s still HFS+. I’l post a screenshot when I get back to my computer. A drive doesn’t just change format, you have to first initiate and allow it to happen.
I had stepped away from the iMac for a couple hours, so just ran FirstAid again on that drive - FAILURE! and funny enough, the drive does not show up in Finder anymore and there was no Finder error message popping up ...Update from my experiment #2:
CCC backup completed
Got a Finder error message re improperly ejecting the HDD, plugged back in
FirstAid passes
observation: TM backup for the same amount of data (just under 3TB) was quite a bit faster than CCC
next experiment will be to erase/reformat with HFS+ and CCC
coming back about another 1.5 hrs later and scenario described above repeats itselfI had stepped away from the iMac for a couple hours, so just ran FirstAid again on that drive - FAILURE! and funny enough, the drive does not show up in Finder anymore and there was no Finder error message popping up ...
Plugging it back in, FirstAid PASS (running 3 tests on the disk, container and partition)
I will keep the HDD plugged in for now, have some more things to do and will come back to the iMac in an hour or 2 and repeat above.
And in Energy Saver, put HDD to sleep when possible is NOT checked ...
Plugged HDD into MBA and erased/formatted with HFS+coming back about another 1.5 hrs later and scenario described above repeats itself
changing my plan and will now attach this drive to my M1 MBA running the latest Monterey beta and perform TM backup
well, to be fair, it does not seem to be a widespread problem given your survey results and the responses. At the same token, how many folks run FirstAid on a somewhat regular basis or just out of curiosity? when there are no problems, I wouldn't ...Thanks for testing, jz. It is disappointing that Apple cannot get something this basic done reliably. I also use Cloud backup for my documents and photos. My photography hobby is what keeps me using Mac computers. Otherwise, I'd switch to Linux in a heartbeat.
What OS version were you on when you first started using that drive for TM? I've read in some posts that if you come from pre-Big Sur (meaning you have used the particular HDD for TM before upgrading to Big Sur) it does not change the format.
IF you start using a disk for the first time for TM when on Big Sur, TM WILL change the format to APFS case-sensitive. I've seen that a few times while I was texting out my HDDs
Good to know! I only formatted this HDD as APFS to use the new and faster snapshot-based Time Machine system. I'll surely leave my other HDDs formatted in HFS.There seems to be issues with the current released APFS with HDDs. For those who have no problems, can you please post your configuration? What HDDs do you use? Thank you.
Over the years I've had plenty of problems with HFS+ formatted Time Machine drives -- sometimes with the OS just telling you it straight up needs to start over. From what I've read (mostly here) the new system is less likely to get corrupted over time.Big Sur Macs can and do backup to HFS+ HDD's, a reliable combination that has been working fine for some 30 years now. I fail to see how backing up with Time Machine to an APFS drive is of any extra benefit.
but I can't quite stomach the price of a 5TB SSD to run Time Machine backups
Maybe not today, but the prices have been dropping quite a bit. For an "average" user who only has 1-2 TB of stuff, a basic external SSD is no longer the massive expenditure it once was. I'm using a super basic one (a 1 TB SATA SSD in a cheap USB enclosure) to back up my 256 GB MacBook Air and it truly flies through the task. Overkill, probably, but eventually these will get cheap enough to replace all the HDDs.Sure, if someone wants to try sell me APFS on an SSD for Time Machine, go right ahead
Maybe not today, but the prices have been dropping quite a bit. For an "average" user who only has 1-2 TB of stuff, a basic external SSD is no longer the massive expenditure it once was. I'm using a super basic one (a 1 TB SATA SSD in a cheap USB enclosure) to back up my 256 GB MacBook Air and it truly flies through the task. Overkill, probably, but eventually these will get cheap enough to replace all the HDDs.
I got the same result (using MacOS 11.5.2 and a portable spinning HDD), but I'm also not having any problems with Time Machine. Is it possible this is more an issue with Disk Utility?
Are we talking here about the drives actually not working correctly, or just about what Disk Utility is reporting?
You know what, (when I was at home) I think I actually used my 2011 MBP running High Sierra to format the drive to HFS+, I then made a backup of that computer on that drive. I then took that drive, connected it to my brand new Big Sur M1 (never upgraded the OS on that), and made a backup of my new machine. The drive stayed HFS+.
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However, I'm not at home right now, I'm 2000km away on holiday, and have only 1 TM HDD drive with me. When I get home in a few months, I have 3 other TM HDD's there. If I remember, and if anyone still cares to know, I'll check those drives. I might even format one and will attempt a brand new backup with my Big Sur M1 Air, without ever connecting it to my old 2011 machine.
I've been doing some research, and yes, it would seem Apple are changing things faster than I, and a lot of people can keep track of. It looks like if you start a brand new backup with a Big Sur Mac, on any type of drive, it 'will' format it to APFS. What is not clear is exactly how that will happen. Will Time Machine automatically do the formatting? Will Disk Utility magically open and do the formatting? Do you have any kind of choice? I honestly don't see why you can't choose, because if I can backup a Big Sur Mac to a HDD using HFS+, why can't anyone, even with a brand new backup.
The below article is from 2017, round about when APFS first came out, so I'm not sure if it's still relevant today, but it could still be interesting and might explain why using APFS on a HDD is maybe still not the best idea. It's very technical.
Using APFS On HDDs ... And Why You Might Not Want To
After 16 months of using and testing APFS—Apple's new file system—I’ve come to the conclusion that you probably don’t want to use it on HDDs (disks with rotating platters).eshop.macsales.com
Moral of the story: I would suggest using only HFS+ on HDD's. While APFS will initially work on a HDD, the article above explains why after a period of time it may well end up slowing your drive down, and even leading to errors like the ones in this thread.
I just attempted to erase my current Time Machine Seagate HDD, with my Big Sur M1. It defaulted to APFS, and it would have formatted it to that, but there was a drop down menu that offered HFS+, and ExFAT etc. I fail to see how/why Time Machine would just switch that to APFS when, to be bluntly honest, it doesn't have to.
Big Sur Macs can and do backup to HFS+ HDD's, a reliable combination that has been working fine for some 30 years now. I fail to see how backing up with Time Machine to an APFS drive is of any extra benefit. I backed up 1.3TB of data on one external formatted to HFS+ on this Time Machine external also formatted to HFS+, with my M1 Air. Took just 4 hours.
I've also run a few more 1st aid tests, and run some more backups. No problems with my backup drive whatsoever.
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I've encountered the APFS case sensitive time machine reformat myself, but only on Big Sur, and only on HDD's.When you start a new TM backup on Big Sur, eg a new or reformatted HDD, TM will reformat it to APFS case-sensitive regardless if the hard drive was formatted to APFS or HFS+. Not sure which OS version started that behavior