Do you think ARM iMacs will be able to be used as displays?

[Spungoflex]

This instantly solves the gaming/boot camp problem that the move to ARM created. You can buy a game console and/or Intel NUC and you’ve got the best of all worlds.

The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd. The iMac would be a much better value if you were able to use the monitor... as a monitor.

 

[Ballis]

Hope so.

 

[Diskutant]

Old iMacs had this feature but apple removed that around 2010 or something like that.

So I don’t think Apple will bring that back. That feature is not related to the cpu architecture.

 

[thenewperson]

Wasn't it the retina iMacs that lost it? Something to do with a custom controller they made to make the resolution work, as far as I read.

 

[jerryk]

This instantly solves the gaming/boot camp problem that the move to ARM created. You can buy a game console and/or Intel NUC and you’ve got the best of all worlds.

The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd. The iMac would be a much better value if you were able to use the monitor... as a monitor.

Why can't you hook up an XBox or PS to a computer monitor? They support HDMI.

The 5 Best Monitors For Xbox Series X - Fall 2024

The best monitor for Xbox Series X that we've tested is the Samsung Odyssey OLED G8/G80SD S32DG80. It's a fantastic 32-inch, 4k gaming display with remarkable picture quality.

www.rtings.com

 

[Krevnik]

Wasn't it the retina iMacs that lost it? Something to do with a custom controller they made to make the resolution work, as far as I read.

Yes, it was the Retina models that dropped it. Also not helped by the fact that at the time, it required two DisplayPort connections to drive the 5K display. With DSC and DisplayPort 1.4 it’s possible to get 5K driven at 10bpc over a single connection, so it should be possible to bring the feature back in the future depending on future versions of the controller.

 

[theluggage]

With DSC and DisplayPort 1.4 it’s possible to get 5K driven at 10bpc over a single connection, so it should be possible to bring the feature back in the future depending on future versions of the controller.

True - but then where are the alternative inputs on the $5000 XDR display or the (clearly Apple-specified and likely based on the guts of an aborted Thunderbolt Display II) LG Ultrafine displays.

Sadly, any such solution is going to cost Apple > $0.00, so now they have proved to themselves that people will still buy iMacs even if they don't support 'target display mode' why would they bother? Ye gods, people might start buying relatively cheap Mac Minis and keeping the old iMac as a display rather than upgrading their iMacs and then how would Apple afford to play at being a movie studio?

If Apple were still trying to compete with other "pro" PCs rather than just relying on existing customers' inertia and software lock-in then maybe... but... see all those benchmarks on Apple's Mac Pro pages showing how much better it is than Windows and Linux workstations...? No, neither do I... but, hey, it's faster than a 2013 trashcan...

Pity, because - as has been said - bolting a mini PC to the back of an iMac and sharing the screen/keyboard would solve a lot of people's potential issues with the loss of native x86 support.

In practical terms... I guess the pre-5k iMac display panel was basically a self-contained device with what amounted to be an internal DisplayPort interface, so adding some switching was fairly simple. Doing it with a higher-res, directly-driven display would mean including the extra circuitry found in, er... virtually every other half-decent monitor (which all have multiple inputs and up/downsampling unless they came from the rebadged TV bargain bucket...)

I currently have a 5k iMac and - although the screen is lovely - not being able to use it with other gear is a major frustration (the iMac's CPU and GPU are no longer cutting edge but the display is still comfortably ahead of the game). Fixing that would convince me to get another iMac... but otherwise it will have to be an ARM Mac Mini (if that ever happens & results in a mini with a decent integrated GPU) + third party display. Or a PC.

 

[Spungoflex]

Why can't you hook up an XBox or PS to a computer monitor? They support HDMI.

The 5 Best Monitors For Xbox Series X - Fall 2024

The best monitor for Xbox Series X that we've tested is the Samsung Odyssey OLED G8/G80SD S32DG80. It's a fantastic 32-inch, 4k gaming display with remarkable picture quality.

www.rtings.com

Who said you can’t? This topic is about using the monitor on the iMac.

 

[ChromeCloud]

The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd.

This is not a valid argument to support the fact that it should be possible to use an iMac as a generic computer monitor.

The iMac is not sold as a computer monitor, therefore you should not expect it to be working as one.

If you applied the same logic to all products, then any product sold with an integrated display should allow you to use it as a generic computer monitor. Which sounds pretty absurd from a product design point of view. (Hey, why can't I connect the display of my Nintendo Switch to my Xbox One??).

 

[jerryk]

Who said you can’t? This topic is about using the monitor on the iMac.

Your topic started with that. You wrote:

"The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd. "

 

[thisismyusername]

Nope. Apple already had that feature and removed it years ago. They're certainly not going to add it back just to be nice. What's in it for Apple to put it back in? The number of people who would buy an iMac just because of such a feature is very small and not worth catering too.

Just like I don't expect to be able to use any other device's integrated display with another computer/console/etc, I don't expect to be able to do the same with an iMac. I've never really understood all the complaints about this either. Wanting this ability means you really don't want an all-in-one computer. Thus, just buy separate components. You can still make a desk look just as clean and minimal with a separate monitor & computer (e.g. buy a Mac Mini and mount it under the desk).

 

[Diskutant]

Your topic started with that. You wrote:

"The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd. "

The computer monitor in that quote is the iMac

 

[Krevnik]

True - but then where are the alternative inputs on the $5000 XDR display or the (clearly Apple-specified and likely based on the guts of an aborted Thunderbolt Display II) LG Ultrafine displays.

The XDR can be driven using a DisplayPort -> USB-C cable at full resolution if DSC is enabled on the GPU. It's been demonstrated on this forum. But DSC support is relatively new in GPUs and displays. The XDR is one of the first DSC-enabled monitors I've ever heard of. For GPUs, Navi and Turing are the first architectures from AMD and Nvidia, respectively. So both in the last couple years.

The 5K Ultrafine doesn't support DisplayPort 1.4 or DSC, so it's USB-C support in the second-gen model is limited to 4K.

Sadly, any such solution is going to cost Apple > $0.00, so now they have proved to themselves that people will still buy iMacs even if they don't support 'target display mode' why would they bother?

That's the real question, and why I said it depended on future versions of the controller.

That said, target display mode wasn't free to begin with, but they added that anyways. So it's hard to tell what Apple will do or why here.

In practical terms... I guess the pre-5k iMac display panel was basically a self-contained device with what amounted to be an internal DisplayPort interface, so adding some switching was fairly simple. Doing it with a higher-res, directly-driven display would mean including the extra circuitry found in, er... virtually every other half-decent monitor (which all have multiple inputs and up/downsampling unless they came from the rebadged TV bargain bucket...)

Even the 5K iMac uses DisplayPort internally to route signals from the GPU to the display controller. But yes, it's the use of DisplayPort internally that enabled target display mode. The main difference as I pointed out is that to handle the 5K display at 10bpc RGB, it needed two 1.2 connections. Even 1.4 is limited to 8bpc RGB at 5K resolution, so DSC would be required to get it down to one connection.

This added complexity is the real problem, and the only machines able to drive the 5K iMac in this way would be other Macs. As seen by how the 5K Ultrafine behaves when hooked up to Windows. So I can kinda understand dropping support if the main use of target display mode was Windows machines, and not MacBooks.

But if we started seeing the iMac move to DSC with a single connection, or even a single DisplayPort 2.0 connection instead, it's more plausible that we could see the return of target display mode.

 

[Spungoflex]

Your topic started with that. You wrote:

"The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd. "

You’re pretending you didn’t read the thread title now?

 

[Spungoflex]

This is not a valid argument to support the fact that it should be possible to use an iMac as a generic computer monitor.

The iMac is not sold as a computer monitor, therefore you should not expect it to be working as one.

If you applied the same logic to all products, then any product sold with an integrated display should allow you to use it as a generic computer monitor. Which sounds pretty absurd from a product design point of view. (Hey, why can't I connect the display of my Nintendo Switch to my Xbox One??).

The iMac is an all-in-one computer. It’s not uncommon for all-in-one computers to come with an HDMI input, so you can... ya know... use the monitor you bought as a monitor and not have it permanently tied to the computer it was sold with.

 

[CWallace]

The native timing controller on the LG 27" 5K panel drives one half of the panel per input, which is why displays like the original Dell Ultrasharp required a dual-DisplayPort input to provide a true 5120x2800 experience (otherwise it maxes out at 4K) with a refresh rate of 30Hz.

Apple developed a custom timing controller for the panel so it can be driven at 60Hz instead of 30Hz. I presume Apple then licensed this controller to LG so the UltraFine 5K display could be driven via one TB3 cable at 60Hz. An unfortunate side-effect of this is that it no longer allowed the display to be driven by an external video source (i.e. - Target Display Mode).

So while people like to assume that when Apple takes a feature away it is because they are a**holes, sometimes the real reason is to actually allow the product to deliver a better user experience.

 

[deconstruct60]

The iMac is an all-in-one computer. It’s not uncommon for all-in-one computers to come with an HDMI input, so you can... ya know... use the monitor you bought as a monitor and not have it permanently tied to the computer it was sold with.

It is not all that uncommon for mainstream, plain monitors to have more than one video input plug/jack. Apple's don't. Haven't for decades. Even back to Cinema display era before the turn of the century :

Apple Cinema Display - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One and only one input plug. Thunderbolt docking station "monitors". One and only one video input.

Apple just hasn't done "one monitor multiple computers" in over two decades. Why would they be doing it going forward into the future. Very likely Apple just doesn't see a huge latent market out there for multiple input monitors where feature is a super critical factor.

The very major issue at this point is that Thunderbolt is a "video out". Apple would have to injected some substantive , proprietary gyrations to get Thunderbolt port to optionally switch to an "input" port. Yes, in a peripheral it can be an input port , but to get things to go the other way would adding another switch ( and/or a substantively more complicated switch to ) .

When Thunderbolt moved from v2 (and 1) to v3 it also switched from mini-DisplayPort to USB Type C. On the mini-DP socket there was only two signaling subtypes being set there: DisplayPort and Thunderbolt. For Mac TB v3 there are at least 3 ; USB , DisplayPort , and Thunderbolt. The other issue is going from 1-2 ports that switch both ways to 4 ports. The latter is an even more complicated switching set up for a mode that relatively very low utilization. Long term the iMac is probably going to 4 (or more) TB ports (or minimally USB4 ones).

The recent iMacs have generally have been on a track where the LCD panel connection is switchless ( as in iMac not use the iGPU much at all.) If the Apple Silicon iMacs 'flip the script' there and go iGPU only, they still be in the no switch to plug into status.


The other issue is that with Thunderbolt, Apple has pushed the concept that it doesn't matter which "video out" TB port you use. The video comes out. Even if they put in a Rube Goldberg solution layered on TB , for target display mode that port would have to be 'different' from the others. Apple isn't likely to that and more than the simpler "input only" port which they don't do at all on "mentor" systems.

Apple could "re-think" their adversity to multiple video input ports. With no 'raw' Windows ( or other OS) boot support there are a subset of users who are going to use two boxes to split up their workloads. Once have two boxes and limited desktop space having a single monitor that switches between the two becomes more common. Apple would get incrementally less "hate" if some folks could plug their gaming PC into iMac to single track using both systems. Enough of drop to ge them to drop their long held preferences..... i wouldn't hold my breath on that.


Target Disk Mode is going away also with Apple Silicon Macs.

"...Apple is also replacing Target Disk Mode, which is used to transfer data between two Macs, with what's called Mac Sharing Mode. Mac Sharing Mode turns the system into an SMB file sharing server, providing another Mac with file-level access to user data. User authentication is required to access the service. ..."

Apple Silicon Macs to Feature New Boot and Recovery Interface, New Mac Sharing Mode Replacing Target Disk Mode

Apple Silicon Macs will introduce a new system for accessing macOS recovery and security options at startup, Apple explained at a WWDC session on...

www.macrumors.com

Looks like Target < fill in the blank> modes are all getting tossed. Apple Silicon Macs are going to be more focused on being better Macs ( not a Mac trying to also be something else ). So seems like it more so comes down to whether Apple is going to cut an 'extra' hole in the iMac enclosure shell.

 

[subjonas]

This is not a valid argument to support the fact that it should be possible to use an iMac as a generic computer monitor.

The iMac is not sold as a computer monitor, therefore you should not expect it to be working as one.

If you applied the same logic to all products, then any product sold with an integrated display should allow you to use it as a generic computer monitor. Which sounds pretty absurd from a product design point of view. (Hey, why can't I connect the display of my Nintendo Switch to my Xbox One??).

“Should” is a subjective term. What they mean is it would be very useful to some users. Would it be financially beneficial to Apple? Will this ever happen? Who knows. But as a consumer, nothing wrong with letting your wants known.

Your “it’s not sold as blank, therefore don’t expect blank” argument has strange implications, especially here. Does that mean you think no one should ever expect new features in future products? Especially ones that even existed in the product before?

As far as your nintendo comparison, the difference is that a tiny mobile screen does not have a lot of potential use as a target display, while a huge monitor on a desk top is potentially very useful.

Nope. Apple already had that feature and removed it years ago. They're certainly not going to add it back just to be nice. What's in it for Apple to put it back in? The number of people who would buy an iMac just because of such a feature is very small and not worth catering too.

Just like I don't expect to be able to use any other device's integrated display with another computer/console/etc, I don't expect to be able to do the same with an iMac. I've never really understood all the complaints about this either. Wanting this ability means you really don't want an all-in-one computer. Thus, just buy separate components. You can still make a desk look just as clean and minimal with a separate monitor & computer (e.g. buy a Mac Mini and mount it under the desk).

You can’t say with any certainty that a feature will or won’t return unless you know exactly why it was removed. If there were technological circumstances (ie. limitations of DisplayPort) that primarily caused the feature’s removal, then a change in the circumstances could bring the feature back, though who knows if there may be a delay.

 

[deconstruct60]

“Should” is a subjective term. What they mean is it would be very useful to some users. Would it be financially beneficial to Apple? Will this ever happen? Who knows. But as a consumer, nothing wrong with letting your wants known.

Your “it’s not sold as blank, therefore don’t expect blank” argument has strange implications, especially here. Does that mean you think no one should ever expect new features in future products? Especially ones that even existed in the product before?

apple products don't have serial ports anymore. Apple Desktop ports anymore. No Firewire. No optical drives. No Macs come standard with a HDD anymore.

Apple regularly deems technologies as pass their most useful lifetimes even after using them for years.

One of the primary drivers of needing a monitor with two inputs was need multiple computer running more than one operating systems. The vast majority of that has been subsumed by Virtual Machines. A single Mac system with 32-64GB of memory can flip between multiple OS instances on the same screen without hitting any magical "switch monitor input" key combination. Most times a user can even easily copy and paste between the OS instances (which can't do with switch input modes).

Even without virtual machines. 1GbE (or better) LAN ethernet connection to another system with VNC/"remote desktop"/etc works just fine for a large fraction of workloads. Even more some people hare interacting with distant cloud instances of some OS instance running an app or a game on a remote machine.

VM and network host connections is a primary reason Apple is on track to dump raw booting other OS instances on future Macs. ( raw 'Boot Camp" going into retirement. ). The impacts won't only be there though.

Times change and features change along with them. Especially with Apple. They aren't slavishly hooked to any port. Forward looking use cases, yes. Primarily only looking in the rear view mirror as to what to do on next iteration. Probably not. What you are cheerleading here for is an old feature , not a new one. Mixing it up with "no future features" is partially misdirection.


Apple has dropped target display mode rather throughly since getting the TBv3 Macs out. They almost certainly have gotten some grumbling feedback about that several years ago and Intel iMacs still haven't added it back.

You can’t say with any certainty that a feature will or won’t return unless you know exactly why it was removed. If there were technological circumstances (ie. limitations of DisplayPort) that primarily caused the feature’s removal, then a change in the circumstances could bring the feature back, though who knows if there may be a delay.

If you are out there betting large sums that optical disks are coming back the Mac in future iterations you are extremely likely going to loose lots of money. Some features Apple has basically outlined that they are the "past". There is no clear commandment brought down from the mountain on target display mode.

The primary support page is 'dead ended' ( archive only mode).

Use your iMac as a display with target display mode - Apple Support (BN)

Target display mode is a feature available with certain older Mac models.

support.apple.com

That isn't a good bet that it is a forward looking technology.

 

[ChromeCloud]

“Should” is a subjective term. What they mean is it would be very useful to some users. Would it be financially beneficial to Apple? Will this ever happen? Who knows. But as a consumer, nothing wrong with letting your wants known.

Your “it’s not sold as blank, therefore don’t expect blank” argument has strange implications, especially here. Does that mean you think no one should ever expect new features in future products? Especially ones that even existed in the product before?

Nobody ever said it wouldn't be useful to some users. I was specifically addressing the way the OP expected such a feature to be included in the product. He says (talking as if you are purchasing an external monitor when you purchase an iMac): "The idea that you can’t hook up an XBOX or PS5 to a computer monitor you purchased has always been beyond absurd."

Well, there's nothing absurd about that. Since an iMac is sold as a computer, the only thing that would be absurd about it would be if it couldn't operate as a computer. It would be absurd for an iMac not to be able to run any program.

The fact that it cannot be used as an external monitor is not absurd. It's just a product design choice.

If you like car analogies, it would be as if a certain car didn't have the ability to tow a trailer.

If the OP was interested in such a car, he would say something like this: "The idea that you can't tow a trailer with a powerful engine you purchased has always been beyond absurd".

The engine in the car could be used to tow a trailer just as well as the monitor in the iMac could be used as an external monitor.

Still, there is nothing absurd about a car that cannot tow a trailer, just as there is nothing absurd about an iMac that cannot be used as an external monitor.

 

[thenewperson]

I'm curious, is this a standard feature for other AiOs?

 

[EntropyQ3]

Well, I have a 27" iMac that allows me to connect any PC or Mac, and use the iMac as a monitor.
if the next big screen iMac does the same, I’ll buy it.
It really is that simple.

But if it doesn’t, I’ll have to buy a separate screen for my PC and honestly, I don’t really need a Mac. I just like them. Having two separate systems may or may not be an acceptable expense, but being forced to also have a separate quality screens adds insult to injury. And the PC does everything the Mac does, but the reverse isn’t true. So...

 

[chrfr]

Well, I have a 27" iMac that allows me to connect any PC or Mac, and use the iMac as a monitor.
if the next big screen iMac does the same, I’ll buy it.

Given that the feature hasn't worked to use a 5k iMac as a display, and 2020 Macs no longer support connecting to an older iMac set to Target Display Mode, I would expect that the feature is gone in any future Mac as well.

 

[EntropyQ3]

Given that the feature hasn't worked to use a 5k iMac as a display, and 2020 Macs no longer support connecting to an older iMac set to Target Display Mode, I would expect that the feature is gone in any future Mac as well.

Quite possibly. Then again, we now have interconnects that can actually deal with high resolution monitors without jumping through hoops.
I’ve been using Macs for 35 years, but I’m comfortable on other systems as well. While the shift to Apple Silicon is one of the most interesting things to happen in personal computing in a good long time, Apples removal of simple functionality and connectivity options from their offerings is a real issue. Maybe with Jony Ive gone, laptops can have ports again? I doubt that phones will regain headphone jacks, Apple makes too much money selling wireless accessory headphones, but letting iMac screens being driven from an external computer doesn’t take away any real profit options from them. It just adds utility for their customers.

 

[Sheppard]

I mean, technically it may be easier for them to bring the functionality back as they are moving to separate controllers for functional tasks. It was removed as they needed custom timing controllers for the display to work effectively with intel and discrete graphics. Having more vertical ownership in this department may allow for additional conversion to be built in to work with external inputs.

However, whether or not they will is completely different question; it’s not worth their time/effort to consider requirements for a device that would distract from the experience.

Grab a LG C9, a wall bracket and enjoy!!